Public Education

[james&olya 1,121]

Just to clue you in, the only free public education is free to anyone who has children yet doesn't pay taxes. Let's at least get it straight.

So glad you called that to my attention! I would never have realized that otherwise!

[decocker 7,198]

The only thing you can do is take charge of your own children. The worst thing you can do is turn your back and trust in the public schools.

and why do you think i haven't taken charge of my own?

while it's great that you can stay home and teach your children yourself, that isn't my situation. as i mentioned previously, my son has an iep. i had to fight tooth and nail to get that extra help for him. i had to subject him to numerous tests more than once, i had to allow a social worker into my home to ask me questions about my personal life (quite a few times), i had to meet with panels and boards with even more teachers, school administrators, and social workers. i continue these meetings in order to keep the iep for my son. i still have to defend my continued stance to keep my son unmedicated. in my experience with my son's public education, i have not trusted his school's actions or inaction. once i realized how the game is played (around the start of his third grade year) i've questioned them every step of the way. i most certainly have not turned my back on my son.

in my experience personal involvement at a local level is the only way to ensure the school is working for me and not against me. and taking my kid out of public school, isn't an option.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

So glad you called that to my attention! I would never have realized that otherwise!

Good. I wouldn't want you to think that public education was actually free in regards to tax payers.

[rlogan 2,036]

and why do you think i haven't taken charge of my own?

Why would you go out of your way to fabricate this straw man? Wow, what a leap. Obviously I responded to your assertion he take on a futile quest to change the system.

I don't "get to" stay at home. See you word things to remove responsibility? I decided to work from home and live in a cabin in the woods. Your decisions resulted in where you are. But you've worded it as if your "circumstance" and mine were random chance.

I could paint this life as such victimhood too, for how hard it is at forty below zero, heating with wood, so far from town, and having to educate our kids at home boo hoo hoo. You "get to" have your kids in public school. You "get to" have a thermostat, "get to" have shops nearby and "get to" leave the house. See how easy victimology is?

The one thing I will agree with is not letting those creeps drug your child. In the government schools it's all about controlling the kids, like prisoners. So quick to dope them up.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Why would you go out of your way to fabricate this straw man? Wow, what a leap. Obviously I responded to your assertion he take on a futile quest to change the system.

I don't "get to" stay at home. See you word things to remove responsibility? I decided to work from home and live in a cabin in the woods. Your decisions resulted in where you are. But you've worded it as if your "circumstance" and mine were random chance.

I could paint this life as such victimhood too, for how hard it is at forty below zero, heating with wood, so far from town, and having to educate our kids at home boo hoo hoo. You "get to" have your kids in public school. You "get to" have a thermostat, "get to" have shops nearby and "get to" leave the house. See how easy victimology is?

The one thing I will agree with is not letting those creeps drug your child. In the government schools it's all about controlling the kids, like prisoners. So quick to dope them up.

Wasilla school district got busted for that ####### a few years back. They were getting money from some drug company to push their drug onto kids. The had a ####### load of kids in that school system drugged up until the cat was let out of the bag. A few people lost their jobs over it.

[decocker 7,198]

Why would you go out of your way to fabricate this straw man? Wow, what a leap. Obviously I responded to your assertion he take on a futile quest to change the system.

I don't "get to" stay at home. See you word things to remove responsibility? I decided to work from home and live in a cabin in the woods. Your decisions resulted in where you are. But you've worded it as if your "circumstance" and mine were random chance.

I could paint this life as such victimhood too, for how hard it is at forty below zero, heating with wood, so far from town, and having to educate our kids at home boo hoo hoo. You "get to" have your kids in public school. You "get to" have a thermostat, "get to" have shops nearby and "get to" leave the house. See how easy victimology is?

The one thing I will agree with is not letting those creeps drug your child. In the government schools it's all about controlling the kids, like prisoners. So quick to dope them up.

they way i read your original post, read as if you were talking directly to me. you said the only thing i could do was take charge of my own. i responded that i've done just that.

you're twisting my words with intentions i didn't have. i do not think that your life is easy or benefits from chance more than mine. i believe i've told you quite a few times how impressive you and your wife's work ethic is and how awesome it is that your family can thrive in that environment.

i also didn't portray myself as a victim of anything, i stated my experience within the bureaucracy of our public school system. i do not have the option of homeschooling my son without losing my capability to house and feed him myself. your statement "The worst thing you can do is turn your back and trust in the public schools" (since it was in reference to my quote) read like you were implying that sending my child to public schools was the equivalent of turning my back on him. with my explanation of what i've been through, fighting for my son's education, i was attempting to show how i made positive change from within the system. not exactly a good example for 'victimology' but you read into it what you wanted...and you probably still will.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

they way i read your original post, read as if you were talking directly to me. you said the only thing i could do was take charge of my own. i responded that i've done just that.

you're twisting my words with intentions i didn't have. i do not think that your life is easy or benefits from chance more than mine. i believe i've told you quite a few times how impressive you and your wife's work ethic is and how awesome it is that your family can thrive in that environment.

i also didn't portray myself as a victim of anything, i stated my experience within the bureaucracy of our public school system. i do not have the option of homeschooling my son without losing my capability to house and feed him myself. your statement "The worst thing you can do is turn your back and trust in the public schools" (since it was in reference to my quote) read like you were implying that sending my child to public schools was the equivalent of turning my back on him. with my explanation of what i've been through, fighting for my son's education, i was attempting to show how i made positive change from within the system. not exactly a good example for 'victimology' but you read into it what you wanted...and you probably still will.

Don't pay attention to him, val. He tends to think people who disagree with him are "manipulators" who like to cast themselves as "victims."

[decocker 7,198]

I don't "get to" stay at home.

also, go back and read what i wrote. i didn't say 'get to' - i said 'can'.

while it's great that you can stay home and teach your children yourself, that isn't my situation.

i didn't remove or imply any responsibility with this statement. try again. and take the quote above in context with your

The only thing you can do is take charge of your own children. The worst thing you can do is turn your back and trust in the public schools.

.

[rlogan 2,036]

also, go back and read what i wrote. i didn't say 'get to' - i said 'can'.

So "can" you. But you've decided not to.

"That's not my circumstance" = that isn't my decision.

The reason why most people live in cities, take day jobs, and put their kids in public schools is that they have more money that way and their life is easier. It is thousands upon thousands of decisions they make every day they wake up in the morning to put themselves in their circumstance. So after all those thousands of decisions have been made, it is extremely misleading to say we don't have the "option" of doing things differently. Take responsibility for your circumstance instead of saying you don't "have the option". Yes you did. You chose not to. You are not a victim of circumstance.

So good on you, doing exactly what I said people have to do if they are going to put their kids into the clutches of the public school systems. The defenders of this appalling system don't seem to realize how bad it is: 25th in math, 21st in science amongst the industrialized countries. But we sure squander money on it. The Homeschool kids spend a tiny fraction by comparison and outperform the public school kids.

Hey james&olya - that's a rhetorical question obviously, not a coherent statement in defense of the abysmal performance in our public schools. The stupid kids go to public schools, eh? Please show your data demonstrating that these appalling performance statistics are because the stupid kids are going to public schools. The corollary argument, if we take you seriously, is that the US has the 21st and 25th most stupid kids. It isn't that our schools suck - it's just that we're dumb.

[decocker 7,198]

So "can" you. But you've decided not to.

"That's not my circumstance" = that isn't my decision.

The reason why most people live in cities, take day jobs, and put their kids in public schools is that they have more money that way and their life is easier. It is thousands upon thousands of decisions they make every day they wake up in the morning to put themselves in their circumstance. So after all those thousands of decisions have been made, it is extremely misleading to say we don't have the "option" of doing things differently. Take responsibility for your circumstance instead of saying you don't "have the option". Yes you did. You chose not to. You are not a victim of circumstance.

yes, you're correct, i am not a victim of circumstance. i never said i was. also, never said that my son going to public school wasn't my decision. i never said that i decided to home school my son but some outside force made me send him to public school. i also didn't say that i don't have the option, i said - i do not have the option of homeschooling my son without losing my capability to house and feed him myself. while you know absolutely nothing about my life or what i've gained or lost thus far, you feel righteous enough to assume that i blame others for my situation instead of myself. you could not be more wrong. i am painfully aware of my missteps in life and how my son pays for those missteps with his future. i have never and will never shirk owning my failures.

if you're hellbent on twisting my words, may i help you: i didn't say it wasn't my circumstance, i said it wasn't my situation. as in my current position, not my chance happening.

it would have been awesome if you could have simply said you misread what i wrote and left it at that.

[rlogan 2,036]

yes, you're correct, i am not a victim of circumstance.

Thanks. Really. I don't want to get into "mis-steps" in life because that isn't at all my intention.

I'm not too concerned about having unpopular views about this for the same reason it doesn't bother me to have my wife called a ####### and a victim or me a reject for marrying her. Because the bottom line is I have kids that are years ahead of their cohorts.

I wish you well.

Edited December 6, 2012 by rlogan

[james&olya 1,121]

So "can" you. But you've decided not to.

"That's not my circumstance" = that isn't my decision.

The reason why most people live in cities, take day jobs, and put their kids in public schools is that they have more money that way and their life is easier. It is thousands upon thousands of decisions they make every day they wake up in the morning to put themselves in their circumstance. So after all those thousands of decisions have been made, it is extremely misleading to say we don't have the "option" of doing things differently. Take responsibility for your circumstance instead of saying you don't "have the option". Yes you did. You chose not to. You are not a victim of circumstance.

So good on you, doing exactly what I said people have to do if they are going to put their kids into the clutches of the public school systems. The defenders of this appalling system don't seem to realize how bad it is: 25th in math, 21st in science amongst the industrialized countries. But we sure squander money on it. The Homeschool kids spend a tiny fraction by comparison and outperform the public school kids.

Hey james&olya - that's a rhetorical question obviously, not a coherent statement in defense of the abysmal performance in our public schools. The stupid kids go to public schools, eh? Please show your data demonstrating that these appalling performance statistics are because the stupid kids are going to public schools. The corollary argument, if we take you seriously, is that the US has the 21st and 25th most stupid kids. It isn't that our schools suck - it's just that we're dumb.

I don't doubt that there are some abysmal public schools. Our local ones are excellent and so were the ones where I grew up. I had the 'privilege' of going to a private, religious school. They constantly touted how superior they were. I did well there and was even valedictorian of my small religious high school. On my aptitude tests I always scored ridiculously high. After high school I enrolled at Michigan State. There the placement tests I took indicated I was prepared only for the average math class for entering freshmen. I had to work to maintain a good grade there. Halfway through the year I transferred to a religious college in California where I found myself way out in front of my classmates again.

An anecdote proves nothing, I know. But my personal experience confirms the research that has been done indicating just how profound the selection bias is when most people compare private schools with public! Try taking a random sampling of students and place some in public, the others in private, and then administer the same tests after a few years. It might burst some people's balloons and I know that for that reason that kind of study would never be done.

ALL of our schools should be better. The greatest handicap is the egalitarian, but false, idea that all children have the same potential. They don't. It is not politically correct even though it is most assuredly factually correct! If it was acknowledged that there is a wide range of ability, especially in our very diverse population, and teaching programs better recognized and taught children according to their abilities you would see scores improve substantially.

One other point, the scores are not as directly comparable between countries as some would want you to believe. There is not an accepted standard for who gets included in the testing. If you only test the superior students of course your scores will be better. How big a factor that is in the rankings I don't know but some people suspect it is significant.

[rlogan 2,036]

I don't doubt that there are some abysmal public schools.

How could you not be aware of the ghastly performance over-all? I just gave you data on an international comparison as a whole. We're 25th in math and 21st in science amongst industrialized countries.

An anecdote proves nothing, I know.

Exactly. But you're going to do it anyway.

But my personal experience confirms the research that has been done indicating just how profound the selection bias is when most people compare private schools with public!

Except you didn't show any research, and instead used the term "profound" without data. But fine, there is some degree of selection bias. You're attempting to draw a logical fallacy from it, namely that the public schools are really "better", it's just that they have dumb students.

Why do smarter parents send their smarter kids to private schools? Because they're better schools. If the public schools were better they wouldn't act stupidly and waste a lot of money sending their kids to inferior private schools.

These arguments demonstrate how people just throw out anything to excuse the public schools without even thinking through their arguments completely. It is more popular to be pro-public schools. Because the vast majority go to public schools.

ALL of our schools should be better. The greatest handicap is the egalitarian, but false, idea that all children have the same potential. They don't. It is not politically correct even though it is most assuredly factually correct! If it was acknowledged that there is a wide range of ability, especially in our very diverse population, and teaching programs better recognized and taught children according to their abilities you would see scores improve substantially.

Oh rubbish. Everyone knows IQ scores range from morons to genius levels. There isn't any comparison between an IQ of 80 and an IQ of 120. We have special education, mainstream tracks and Talented/Gifted programs in schools across the country, so this is just silly talk.

One other point, the scores are not as directly comparable between countries as some would want you to believe. There is not an accepted standard for who gets included in the testing. If you only test the superior students of course your scores will be better. How big a factor that is in the rankings I don't know but some people suspect it is significant.

I'm afraid that although this is technically true it is irrelevant. The US might be doing better and it might be doing worse than 25th. Could be 20th and could be 30th. But whatever it is exactly, the private schools are doing better and the public schools are doing worse.

I don't really care because I am educating two kids only and everyone else can do what they want.