Israel's response to the U.N.

[rade2rising 205]

sooner rather than later Israel is going to feel the ramifications of their ways and it will not be pretty at all.

[Karee 4,190]

sooner rather than later Israel is going to feel the ramifications of their ways and it will not be pretty at all.

Why, you have something planned?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Oops I skipped part of this comment...

Israelis are free to engage in any organized protest or boycott they choose to(unlike so many of the neighbors), and journalists are detained and questioned no more than in any western democracy, once again unlike so many other countries such as Turkey, Iran, China or Russia.

http://www.cpj.org/reports/2012/12/imprisoned-journalists-world-record.php#more

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/19/turkey-media-idUSL4N09T4RL20121219

And here's a report about freedom in the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_House

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World_(report)

http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2012'>http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2012

http://www.freedomhouse.org/

As you can see, according to them Israel is the only free country in the Middle East.

"Glittering Generalities," Hasbara Handbook, p. 23

http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf

I personally don't think there is too much free speech in Israel, but I do think there's alot of it, no less free speech than in any other Western Democracy, including the US, and in some ways sometimes even more. But of course people would get pissed and frustrated when free speech or democracy is taken advantage of, as is the case many times with Arab members of Parliament who say and do things that border on treason.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4306316,00.html

You are rather more liberal on the issue of free speech than the average Israeli (not to mention Israel's government) - which is a good thing. But again, no other Western Democracy has this type of ban on using boycotts to protest government policy such as does Israel with its Boycott Law.

Are you still mad about Hanan Zoabi riding on the Freedom Flotilla ?

Btw, speaking of Haifa Uni, the Arabs there sure felt free enough to have a minute of silence right after Israel killed Jaabri, ahhh...democracy is a wonderful thing

OMG Israel actually allowed their Arab citizens to be quiet ????!!!! This is truly a stunningly convincing argument.

By the way, Jabari was the guy who personally kept your Gilad Shalit alive in Gaza for 5 years and ensured that he was cared for during his captivity, even through Cast Lead when Israel was murdering hundreds of Palestinian civilians in their beds, at their schools, and in the street. Jabari is the guy who personally enforced the cease-fires which the Israeli army itself admits were effective and satisfactory. Jabari is the guy who had just agreed to a long-term cease-fire with Israel, only days before Israel dropped missiles on him in a deliberate move to get it all going again.

Your government doesn't want peace; it wants endless war until it can finish emptying the land of its indigenous people and finish taking all of their land.

I said being gay HAS been a problem for a very long time in the US, I'm well aware that it's finally starting to change. And the fact the gays in Israel came out against occupation only goes to show the freedom of speech in Israel, so I really don't see the point. You couldn't find anything against gays so you said something completely irrelevant. Israelis treat gays equally(for the most part, besides isolated incidents here and there just like any other place on the planet) and I've known many openly gay people in the army. There's a reason why Tel Aviv was named best gay city in the world twice in a row.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2088319/Tel-Aviv-trumps-New-York-named-worlds-best-gay-city.html

Also, many Palestinian gay people escape the west bank and find their way to tel aviv(whether legally or not) because they are afraid of being killed for being gay.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/sympathetic-film-unveils-invisible-gay-palestinians/

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/04/20/pinkwashing-difference-between-israel-palestinians-gay-rights/

Pinkwash, pinkwash. You think I "couldn't find anything against gays" in Israel ??? Hahahaha get real. Do you really want me to post the video about the gay pride parade in Tel Aviv where they talk about how gays have been murdered in Tel Aviv just for being gay ? Zzzzzz wake me up when the Israeli government starts offering refugee status and legal residence to gay Palestinians from the West Bank... or any other Arab country...

Try to grasp the concept: the issue of gay people has NOTHING to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I still don't like HRW. My point, again, was that if you consider them legitimate, and wanted me to post proof from a legitimate source that A. Hamas Targets civilians and B. Hamas uses civilians as human shields(btw, I don't need HRW for that, there's videos all over the web of them admitting it and being proud of it), well then there you have it from a source that you consider legitimate. If even the anti Israel HRW says that, that says alot.

Either you accept HRW, or you don’t. Again, make up your mind. This constant refrain of “anything that criticizes Israel is biased and unreliable” but “anything that criticizes Arabs is telling the Gospel truth” is getting old. You have not offered any reliable evidence that indicates any bias against Israel on the part of HRW, except a bunch of blogs and opinion pieces written by Zio cheerleaders who don’t even offer any research to back up their allegations. It all comes down to the same SHITE. Every. Single. Time. So if you’re going to quote HRW as an authority on human rights violations in Gaza or in Lebanon, you have to accept them as an authority on Israel’s violations. Make a choice and stop trying to cherry-pick just what you want to hear from HRW.

A small piece of advice for you: When debating about the content of reports (such as HRW reports,) you should actually read the items in question instead of relying on blogs and other partisan sources to interpret them for you. In fact, HRW says there is no evidence of the Israeli government’s allegations that Hamas deliberately uses human shields to protect its rocket launches from counterattack.

However, lookie here who keeps getting caught in the act over and over using Palestinian civilians (even kids !) as human shields

Israeli soldiers caught on camera using Palestinian kids as human shields in Balata refugee camp:

Israeli soldiers caught on camera using Palestinian kids as human shields in Nablus:

In the Ezbt Abd Rabbo neighborhood, Israeli combatants said they forced Palestinians to search homes for militants and enter buildings ahead of soldiers in direct violation of an Israeli Supreme Court ruling that bars fighters from using civilians as human shields.

"Sometimes a force would enter while placing rifle barrels on a civilian's shoulder, advancing into a house and using him as a human shield," said one Israeli soldier with the Golani Brigade. "Commanders said these were the instructions, and we had to do it."

Each Palestinian forced to work with the Israeli military was given the same nickname: Johnnie.

The story was confirmed by four other Israeli soldiers who seized control of the Gaza neighborhood, but declined to speak on the record, Shaul said.

The testimony matches with that of nine Palestinian men who told McClatchy last winter that Israeli soldiers forced them into battle zones during the offensive in their northern Gaza Strip neighborhood.

One Palestinian, Castro Abed Rabbo, said Israeli soldiers ordered him to enter buildings to search for militants and booby traps before they sent in a specially trained dog with high-tech detection gear.

Two other Palestinian men told McClatchy that Israeli soldiers used them as human shields by forcing them to kneel in a field during a firefight as they exchanged fire with Gaza fighters.

"I was down on my knees and they fanned out in a 'V' behind me," Sami Rashid Mohammed, a Fatah-leaning former Palestinian Authority police officer, said in an unpublished interview in February. "It wasn't more than 10 or 15 minutes of shooting, but it was so scary."

One of the Israeli soldiers interviewed described the offensive was necessary.

"We did what we had to do," he said. "The actual doing was a bit thoughtless. We were allowed to do anything we wanted. Who's to tell us not to?"

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/07/14/71837/israeli-soldiers-in-gaza-describe.html

:o

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

My husband was personally used as a human shield by Israeli occupation soldiers in his home town in the Jenin district of the West Bank in 1989. The soldiers made him stand in front of their jeep (which is already armored) to "shield" it from people throwing stones at them. Then one of the soldiers got out of the jeep and actually placed his gun on my husband's shoulder, and began shooting rubber-coated steel bullets at the shebab. The same sort of thing has happened to one of his brothers, and he's witnessed this tactic used many times by Israeli soldiers on many different Palestinian civilians throughout his life.

Edited January 4, 2013 by wife_of_mahmoud

[OriZ 3,157]

This "wacko coalition" are the people running your government (and Israelis are about to vote 'em back in again, along with even *wackier* folk, for yet more shenanigans.) Your own Prime Minister personally told the Knesset that his entire coalition should back the boycott bill and they did (although neither he nor Barak attended the final vote - they were already sure their minions would git 'er done.)

Don't forget that Bibi didn't actually get the most votes last elections. He became prime minister cause Livni wouldn't give Shas what they wanted, and Bibi being bibi was more than willing to. So it has alot more to do with the messed up system, than the public.

I said the Nakba law has to do with ORGANIZATIONS who receive funding from the government, and next I said about the boycott law "or organizing a boycott". There's a difference between boycotting, or calling on a boycott.

It's funny how you bolded the part you liked, but not the sentence immediately following:

I bolded that because you try time and time again to make it appear as if there is no free speech, or people can't even boycott a restaurant like in the states which is, of course, wrong. Like what I posted shows, this is the exception. I said it before too. Nothing new here...next...

So that's a huge exception. I can't think of any Western democracy that has such a law, and Israelis couldn't find one either:

The problem is Israel is the only western democracy that exists in the Middle East, right inbetween billions of people who want it gone. So you can't really compare Israel or what it needs to do to protect itself to the US or others for that matter. Is the US more free than Israel? I'd have to say(and my wife would agree) that in some ways Israel is more free, and in other ways there's more freedom in the US. Overall? The US is probably more free by a small margin. But that is not hard nor surprising, and should always be that way. The US is the greatest constitutional republic and free country on the planet. Which is why, even in the links I posted, it received the score 1 in everything, whereas Israel received 2 in some things. So of course there's a difference and not all laws would be identical, there are different countries just as there are different people. No two countries are the same and the US and Israel are not clones or identical twins. But, scoring 2, while not perfect, and I never claimed Israel to be perfect, since the begining of our conversation, is still enough to be considered "free"...unlike other countries in the region(for instance 6 in Iran on everything). Consider for instance another free country such as Iceland...you can't even name your child whatever name you choose, nor can they pick whatever name even when they're older...there's a list of about 17000 names to choose from. Of course such a ludacris law does not exist in Israel, but it doesn't make Iceland a "not free" country. So while it's flattering that in order to show Israel's faults you like to compare it to the states, Israel is not the states.

I was wondering how long it would take for you to be reduced to screaming "anti-Semite !"

I didn't say that everyone was an anti semite or even the majority. I simply stated that there are ones who like to jump on the bandwagon just so they can bash Israel or Jews. Ignoring that simple fact is like sticking your head in the sand.

Are you still mad about Hanan Zoabi riding on the Freedom Flotilla ?

I'll put it very simply. I think it's ridiculous I pay her paycheck(around 10,000 dollars a month). I think my tax money should go to much better things than that(nor should it go to isolated settlements or orthodox "yeshiva"). That's all I'm gonna say.

Jabari was a murderer, responsible for the deaths of hundreds and busy planning more such murderous acts. I'm not gonna shed a tear on him.

Pinkwash, pinkwash. You think I "couldn't find anything against gays" in Israel ??? Hahahaha get real. Do you really want me to post the video about the gay pride parade in Tel Aviv where they talk about how gays have been murdered in Tel Aviv just for being gay ?

Beat ya to it. I already said there's isolated incidents just like anywhere else in the world. You pointing out the exception in every single thing unfortunately doesn't turn it into the rule.

hmmm...you didn't even bother reading my link. Don't even need to read very far. It says this right on top:

Report: Hamas broke int'l law in Gaza operation by firing rockets from densely populated areas to civilian populations in Israel

And then it says:

Armed Palestinian groups firing rockets at Israeli cities violated the laws of war during Operation Pillar of Defense, Human Rights Watch said in a report released on Monday.

“Palestinian armed groups made clear in their statements that harming civilians was their aim,” said HRW’s Middle East director Sarah Leah Whitson. “There is simply no legal justification for launching rockets at populated areas.

The group also found that Gazan groups, including Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Popular Resistance Committee, justified targeting civilian centers as reprisal for Israeli strikes, an act also banned under international law.

Furthermore, such groups “repeatedly fired rockets from densely populated areas, near homes, businesses and a hotel, unnecessarily placing civilians in the vicinity at grave risk from Israeli counter- fire,” the report said.

The detailed report included examples of rockets being launched from densely populated areas in Gaza, and noted that groups fired from underground tunnels with hatches for the first time.

HRW faulted Palestinian armed groups for failing to alert civilians or urge them to evacuate prior to launching rockets in their vicinity.

As the main political power in the Strip, the human rights group said, Hamas was responsible for reining in the behavior of other groups.

“As the ruling authority in Gaza, Hamas has an obligation to stop unlawful attacks and punish those responsible,” Whitson said.

And...you made me do it, here are the links for you, and there's many more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwtRd3ZCNBs

And you can add to that other videos and pictures I've posted before of them hiding behind civilians while shooting.

You seem to not be able to make a distinction between official policy(hamas) and soldiers doing something(again, an exception) which is illegal even according to Israeli law. I don't condone the isolated instances where they use civilians as human shields, however, if you were a soldier there and kept seeing the other side use their own people as human shields, which makes things much more difficult for you, being they have no regard for their own people don't be surprised if eventually you have no regard for them either. If one side uses them to protect itself then eventually the other side says why shouldn't I do it too...

Edited January 5, 2013 by OriZ

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Don't forget that Bibi didn't actually get the most votes last elections. He became prime minister cause Livni wouldn't give Shas what they wanted, and Bibi being bibi was more than willing to. So it has alot more to do with the messed up system, than the public.

Israel’s political system is extremely complicated, and I would agree that it's a mess. 15 political parties is unwieldy, to say the least.

Shas is now the 4th largest party in the Knesset - it's been called "the unchallenged kingmaker of Israeli politics." (For those who didn't know, Shas is an ultra-Orthodox settler party, led by a very nutty spiritual leader named Rabbi Ovadia Yosef - people can Google him for an eye-popping list of his escapades.) Shas' platform morphs from time to time - it has flipflopped its position on various issues in the past. It always wants to be in the ruling coalition, so it will make alliances with certain ideological opponents for political clout. But Shas has swung much further to the right in recent years. Currently it wants (among other things) Halakhic law to rule Israel, is opposed to any freeze on building illegal settlements in the West Bank, and is opposed to a Palestinian state between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. It's very possible that it could still modify some of its positions, but budging on the settlements is probably out of the question.

Bibi is tipping down in the polls lately. Some of that I blame on the after-effect of the US elections. The Israeli public seems to get nervous when their Prime Minister so openly doesn't get along with the POTUS, and Bibi hosting fundraisers to back the wrong horse against a sitting President didn't help at all. But there are other factors... the far right-wing/ultra-Orthodox "Jewish Home" party is surging ahead in the polls - it could pass Labor as Israel's #2 party in the Knesset - and it's doing surprisingly well with young secular Israelis. Bibi can smell the coffee.

Tzipi (Hatnuah) and Shelley (Labor) are trying to outflank Netanyahu, but as it looks now, he probably has enough support to form a coalition and continue as Prime Minister. But he will have to make nice with both Shas and Naftali Bennett (Jewish Home,) and that means shifting even further right.

I said the Nakba law has to do with ORGANIZATIONS who receive funding from the government, and next I said about the boycott law "or organizing a boycott". There's a difference between boycotting, or calling on a boycott.

If you meant “Nakba law,” it probably would have helped if you had said “Nakba law.” All you specifically mentioned in the quote I responded to was “boycott.” Believe me, I try to figure out your posts as best I can, but if you don’t make yourself clear, then you must forgive me if I didn’t understand what you meant to say. (And I realize that English is probably not your first language, and I am not slamming you for that.)

I bolded that because you try time and time again to make it appear as if there is no free speech, or people can't even boycott a restaurant like in the states which is, of course, wrong. Like what I posted shows, this is the exception. I said it before too. Nothing new here...next...

Where did I say anything remotely resembling “there is no free speech” in Israel, or that "people can’t even boycott a restaurant” ??? Quote me or retract.

In fact, I acknowledged that Israel has a lot of free speech - even posted explicit examples of all the types of things you can call for boycotting in Israel without any fear of penalty - the big glaring exception being Israeli government policy. You can hold a sign that says "Boycott Arab businesses," but you can’t hold a sign saying “Boycott (insert Israeli settlement product)" without putting yourself at risk for being sued for damages, because under the law, that simple action is considered “calling for a boycott.” THIS is the point - no other Western-style democracy prohibits their citizens from calling for boycotts to protest government policy. And no other Western democracy threatens non-profit organizations which receive any amount of public funding in order to bully them out of commemorating atrocities against their own indigenous populations. Both the boycott law and the Nakba law are serious infringements of democratic rights to free speech - they are specifically intended to suppress free speech.

The problem is Israel is the only western democracy that exists in the Middle East, right inbetween billions of people who want it gone. So you can't really compare Israel or what it needs to do to protect itself to the US or others for that matter. Is the US more free than Israel? I'd have to say(and my wife would agree) that in some ways Israel is more free, and in other ways there's more freedom in the US. Overall? The US is probably more free by a small margin. But that is not hard nor surprising, and should always be that way. The US is the greatest constitutional republic and free country on the planet. Which is why, even in the links I posted, it received the score 1 in everything, whereas Israel received 2 in some things. So of course there's a difference and not all laws would be identical, there are different countries just as there are different people. No two countries are the same and the US and Israel are not clones or identical twins. But, scoring 2, while not perfect, and I never claimed Israel to be perfect, since the begining of our conversation, is still enough to be considered "free"...unlike other countries in the region(for instance 6 in Iran on everything). Consider for instance another free country such as Iceland...you can't even name your child whatever name you choose, nor can they pick whatever name even when they're older...there's a list of about 17000 names to choose from. Of course such a ludacris law does not exist in Israel, but it doesn't make Iceland a "not free" country. So while it's flattering that in order to show Israel's faults you like to compare it to the states, Israel is not the states.

Spare me the Masada complex #######. First of all, Captain Hyperbole there aren’t “billions of people“ living in the Middle East. There aren’t even 1 billion, or even half a billion living there (and I am even including all of North Africa, just to be sporting.) The total MENA population is about 385 million.

Secondly, Israel is a pariah nation that sneers at international law while committing repeated acts of brutal aggression against its neighbors, illegally occupies and colonizes their territory, and oppresses millions of people - not to mention, drives millions of refugees into neighboring countries. This is not the way to win very many friends. It takes a serious disconnect from reality to say that Israel has the right to continue committing criminal acts because its victims just don’t like it enough.

Thirdly, it’s the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who are fighting against an enemy who not only wants them gone, but has already actually forced millions of them out of their homeland and stolen their stuff, while continuing to try to squeeze most of the rest of them out. Nobody has done anything of the sort to Israelis. Palestinians are the only ones getting wiped off the map - by Israel.

Fourthly, glittering generalities are shiny and bright and… well… glittery. But they’re still irrelevant. So give them a rest.

Fifthly, ####### does what people can name their kids in Iceland have to do with the subject? When you can’t find a specific canned response on the Zio Web Warriors Free Do-It-Yourself Downloadable Hasbara Clip Art, do you choose the “random generic reply” generator ??

Again - no other Western-style democracy has a law banning its citizens from calling for boycotts against their own government’s policies, or penalizing organizations that receive government funding for holding commemorations of atrocities against the country’s indigenous people. This is the comparison that’s being made. All the rest of that ish is just white noise.

Will continue with responses to the rest of your comments in my next post...

Edited January 6, 2013 by wife_of_mahmoud

[Karee 4,190]

I didn't say that everyone was an anti semite or even the majority. I simply stated that there are ones who like to jump on the bandwagon just so they can bash Israel or Jews. Ignoring that simple fact is like sticking your head in the sand.

Personally I separate Jews and Israel. I have no problem with Jewish people, but I have huge problems with the Israeli government and their policies. Just like alot of people can't stand Obama or Bush, but that doesn't make them anti-American.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I didn't say that everyone was an anti semite or even the majority. I simply stated that there are ones who like to jump on the bandwagon just so they can bash Israel or Jews. Ignoring that simple fact is like sticking your head in the sand.

You implied that many were when you called the boycotters “Pro Palestinian or just Jewish hating activists” - I am quoting you word for word. This is pretty much a smear of anti-Semitism against the boycotters (or at least a significant number of them.) So why don’t you make us a list of which boycotters you think are kosher, and which ones aren’t - I am interested to hear who you think is an anti-Semite.

Or maybe those Arab-lovin' boycotters who happen to be Jewish are all “self-hating Jews.” Luckily, the ever-helpful Kahanists over at Masada2000 have thoughtfully compiled the names of all these freaks of nature, subhuman leftist animals and repugnant free-thinking traitors to the Zio cause on their (and I quote) “S.H.I.T. List” - this could help make it much easier to rattle off the names of offenders. At the very least, it's pretty entertaining reading.

http://www.masada2000.org/list-A.html

(BTW, most people who made the list consider it a badge of honor.)

I'll put it very simply. I think it's ridiculous I pay her paycheck(around 10,000 dollars a month). I think my tax money should go to much better things than that(nor should it go to isolated settlements or orthodox "yeshiva"). That's all I'm gonna say.

Welcome to the club. Pretty much every taxpayer in the whole world is pissed off in some way or another because they feel their tax dollars are being wasted on useless politicians who squander the money on useless projects. So you ain’t the Lone Ranger. By the way, there are a whole lot of Americans who are pretty hacked about sending billions in tax dollars and weaponry to Israel so that it may continue to oppress the Palestinians - they feel the money could be so much better spent at home.

But, when people in democracies finally have enough of what their governments do, they will vote the bums out and elect someone who does things differently. (And I direct that comment to Americans as well as Israelis.)

Jabari was a murderer, responsible for the deaths of hundreds and busy planning more such murderous acts. I'm not gonna shed a tear on him.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion. But the point was not that I’m asking you to "cry for Jabari," but to simply acknowledge that the Israeli government made the choice to assassinate the very guy who was enforcing the cease-fire, intentionally breaking its own agreement with Hamas that it had just brokered, which in turn brought about an utterly predictable response of getting the rockets going again (which I am going one step further to say was the Israeli government's actual intention: so that they could have an excuse to pound Gaza again, which they do periodically just to make sure no peace agreement sneaks up behind them before they're done taking the rest of the West Bank.)

Beat ya to it. I already said there's isolated incidents just like anywhere else in the world. You pointing out the exception in every single thing unfortunately doesn't turn it into the rule.

No, you posted a bunch of pink-washing hasbara about how Israel loves teh gheys (as if it had anything to do with the subject, which it doesn't.) I am not going to indulge you in these endless diversions and distractions.

So thanks for the sideshow, but back to the topic which is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

My response to your next comments deserves its own post... so I will continue there...

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

The Arabs attacked Israel how many times since the Declaration of the State of Israel? Things will be normal when Israel gets back to it's historical borders. Then there will be peace in Israel. The Arabs will most likely go to Egypt and Jordan.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Personally I separate Jews and Israel. I have no problem with Jewish people, but I have huge problems with the Israeli government and their policies. Just like alot of people can't stand Obama or Bush, but that doesn't make them anti-American.

It's the Israeli government's fault, though - they keep insisting that the State of Israel is the official representative of "the Jewish people," they slap their religious symbol all over their tanks and their warplanes, etc. I am thinking this may be deliberate - to try to muddy the water between the two so that they can keep screeching "anti-Semite" when people criticize it.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

hmmm...you didn't even bother reading my link. Don't even need to read very far. It says this right on top:

And then it says:

LOL I read your link and it said NOTHING about Hamas using human shields - that was the claim you made which I disputed. Your link says simply that Hamas fires from densely populated areas. Well DUH - Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth - it‘s a tiny piece of land crammed with refugees that Israel drove out in 1947-1949, and has more than 4500 people jammed into each square kilometer. There are few places in Gaza that are more than a few steps away from a civilian home. You have released yet another cloud of unrelated ink. It’s good for squids, not so good for coherent arguments.

And...you made me do it, here are the links for you, and there's many more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwtRd3ZCNBs

Awwww you’re so cute when you think you’ve found a “GOTCHA.” However, please note that I don’t “make” you draw for lame propaganda; you make that choice yourself. I keep advising you to seek reputable information (alas, to no avail )

As for this clip, it would help if you spoke Arabic and understood the context; then you wouldn’t be relying on ####### like MEMRI-fraud's captions with misleading translations taken completely out of context.

In fact, this guy says NOTHING about Hamas using civilians as human shields. Basically, it’s a bunch of chest-thumping. He says that Palestine has suffered death and destruction for years, but still has not been defeated. He says that Zionist attacks have made death become like an everyday occurrence for the people of Gaza - he says even the women and the children and the elderly have been forced to become enured to it as if it’s a “normal” situation. But he says they don’t spend every day cowering in fear of death; he says they are brave and united and every Palestinian will help defend their land - even if they have to use their own bodies as human shields to protect their land and challenge the Zionist bombing machine.

So it's essentially a pep rally; not a chilling revelation of Palestinian subhuman-ness. But you fell for it like a chump.

Again, try to seek reputable sources.

And you can add to that other videos and pictures I've posted before of them hiding behind civilians while shooting.

How does this clip show anything even remotely resembling a Hamas fighter using a “human shield” to protect himself against an Israeli attack ????

Here’s what happens in the video:

:0:00-:0:01 A very short wide shot in color of what appears to be a smoke trail from a rocket or something

:0:01-0:05 Video wipes to an entirely different scene in grainy monochrome, taken at street level. It shows a guy who seems to be arguing with a child or waving him away. A second guy in the scene (who is wearing a headband and a mask and clearly has a gun in his hand) then appears to be pushing the child away from the area.

:0:05-:0:17 Video cuts to a different grainy street-level scene, which shows a different guy with a gun strapped to his back (not the same one as the first guy) who is seen racing over to an area where people appear to be crouching for cover behind a wall - you can see them looking over their shoulders at 0:07. This second guy grabs a child who appears to be outside the “safe” area behind the wall (exposed to live fire) and he quickly pulls the boy to another part of the same street, where people are standing more casually behind an ambulance, which appears to be out of the line of fire. The clip ends abruptly there.

So in fact, it looks like the guy with the gun was pulling the child to a safer position, rather than "using him as a human shield."

View the clip carefully, and tell me where you see anyone hiding behind human shields.

You seem to not be able to make a distinction between official policy(hamas) and soldiers doing something(again, an exception) which is illegal even according to Israeli law. I don't condone the isolated instances where they use civilians as human shields, however, if you were a soldier there and kept seeing the other side use their own people as human shields, which makes things much more difficult for you, being they have no regard for their own people don't be surprised if eventually you have no regard for them either. If one side uses them to protect itself then eventually the other side says why shouldn't I do it too...

Again, there is no “official policy” nor any evidence of Hamas using human shields - zero, zip, zilch.

And if the whole concept of human shields is so icky, why does the Israeli army use it as a matter of course ?

According to defense officials, the Israel Defense Forces made use of the ‘human shield’ procedure on 1,200 occasions over the last five years... An 18-year-old Palestinian was killed in 2002 during one such operation.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3154142,00.html

The Israeli Minister of Defense actually defended the practice, and appealed the Supreme Court decision against it, which called it a "violation of international law":

The Israeli Defence Ministry will appeal against a supreme court ruling banning the use of Palestinian human shields in raids, officials said.

Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz is prepared to make a personal appearance in court to defend the practice, ministry officials added.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm

And as already shown, despite the ban, the Israeli army continues to use the practice.

So what we have here is the IDF slamming the Palestinians for allegedly using human shields (without any credible evidence of it) while admitting to its own Supreme Court that it not only uses the practice routinely, but even argues that should be allowed to continue using it. This is the epitome of shameless hypocrisy.

Edited January 6, 2013 by wife_of_mahmoud

[OriZ 3,157]

When you write this:

American citizens may boycott any company they like, for any reason they like - such as boycotting Chik-fil-A because of its owners attitudes towards gays - without any fear of legal prosecution or penalties. Here are some people living in a real democratic country, publicly and freely exercising their right to free speech, which is banned in Israel:

I'm sure you can see(or should be able to at least) how it could imply to certain people that it's not just about government policies in the west bank or west bank companies. And well, I'm gonna make sure that it's perfectly clear that that's not the case. Next time use a better example than Chik-fil-A(which btw I disagree with the boycotters but obviously think they have a right to boycott if they so choose).

THIS is the point - no other Western-style democracy prohibits their citizens from calling for boycotts to protest government policy. And no other Western democracy threatens non-profit organizations which receive any amount of public funding in order to bully them out of commemorating atrocities against their own indigenous populations. Both the boycott law and the Nakba law are serious infringements of democratic rights to free speech - they are specifically intended to suppress free speech.

Like I said, no other western democracy is also in as precarious a situation as Israel. And that is regardless of my personal thoughts on the law which I've already said I disagree with, and also had to make sure it's mentioned it's a rather new law(so, you know, it doesn't seem like it's been in existance for 50 or 60 years) and that those laws don't tend to stick around for very long.

I didn't say there were billions living in the Middle East...but rather billions who would like to see Israel cease to exist. Ok maybe billions wasn't the right number to choose(remember I type in a hurry many times)...but at least hundreds of millions.

Nobody has done anything of the sort to Israelis. Palestinians are the only ones getting wiped off the map - by Israel.

If they could, they would. Fortunately, they can't.

The point that I mentioned Iceland, again, even though I already said it in my previous post, was just one example(out of many) that not all countries have the same laws, and it doesn't make them "unfree". It could make them less free, it could make them free in different ways, but just because the laws in Israel and the US don't match in everything does not mean people living in Israel do not enjoy alot more freedoms than over another 100 countries, and any other country in the Middle East.

You implied that many were when you called the boycotters “Pro Palestinian or just Jewish hating activists” - I am quoting you word for word. This is pretty much a smear of anti-Semitism against the boycotters (or at least a significant number of them.) So why don’t you make us a list of which boycotters you think are kosher, and which ones aren’t - I am interested to hear who you think is an anti-Semite.

Notice, I put two groups in there. "Pro Palestinian"(nothing with anti semitism) or Jewish hating activists. The Jew haters join in just because it's a convenient platform for them, gives them an opportunity or a chance to do what they want to do under a cover of something else.

You seem to like bringing up the Jews that act against Israel every chance you get. Well how about the flip side? I've already shown before what "Son of Hamas" says, but here's a few more.

http://unitedwithisrael.org/palestinian-reformer-calls-for-peace-with-israel/

http://unitedwithisrael.org/muslim-member-of-british-parliament-supports-israel/

Lt. Hesham Aborea is a Muslim Arab officer in the IDF. His journey began in 2006 when he joined the army and it has not stopped since. He is currently serving in the IDF as the Community Relations Officer to the Arab Sector, speaking to the Arab community in times of emergency. His path to this very important and challenging role was not handed to him on a silver platter, but he appreciates his significant work. "Every morning I think of ways to help the community".

http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/Up_Close/10/10/1102.htm

"Arabs, not just the haredim, must also carry their equal share of the burden, stop complaining and begin serving in the IDF – or at least join the national service program," an Arab-Israeli woman said Wednesday.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4248849,00.html

http://unitedwithisrael.org/bedouin-supports-israel/

Khaleel Mohammed:

Mohammed attracted attention for a 2004 interview in which he stated that Sura 5 verse 21 of the Qur'an, and the medieval exegetes of the Qur'an, say that Israel belongs to the Jews. He translates it thus:

"[Moses said]: O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers."

Mohammed said that the Quran never mentions Jerusalem as a holy city, and added, "It's in the Muslim consciousness that the land first belonged to the Jews. It doesn't matter if the Jews were exiled 500 years or 2000 years, the Holy Land, as mentioned in Quran belongs to Moses and his people, the Jews." [1]

Mohammed says he has convinced many of his Muslim students to see things his way, but they tell him they are afraid of speaking up at their mosque.[1]

Mohammed here understands "written" to mean this is the final word from God on the subject. In reaction, he was inundated with hate mail.[2]

He states that he was once accused of being racist, for having stated that "95% of contemporary Muslims are exposed to anti-Semitic teachings".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaleel_Mohammed

Abdul Hadi Palazzi:

Palazzi accepts Israel's sovereignty over the Holy Land, and says the Qur'an supports it as the will of God as a necessary prerequisite for the Final Judgment. He accepts Israel's sovereignty over Jerusalem, if the rights of other religions are protected. He quotes the Qur'an to support Judaism's special connection to the Temple Mount. According to Palazzi, "The most authoritative Islamic sources affirm the Temples,". He adds that Jerusalem is sacred to Muslims because of its prior holiness to Jews and its standing as home to the biblical prophets and kings David and Solomon, all of whom he says are sacred figures also in Islam. He claims that the Qur'an "expressly recognizes that Jerusalem plays the same role for Jews that Mecca has for Muslims".[7]

When asked whether he see himself as a "Muslim Zionist", he replied: "If one means a Muslim who supports the right of the Jewish people to have their own independent and sovereign State, who is solidly behind the State of Israel when it is attacked by terror and when its existence in menaced, who thinks that developing friendly relations between the Muslim nations and the State of Israel is in the interest of the Muslims and of human civilization in general, then I think that the label of Muslim Zionist is appropriate.[8]

When asked what the Qur'an says about the State of Israel, Palazzi replied:

"The Qur'an cannot deal with the State of Israel as we know it today, since that State came into existing in 1948 only, i.e. many centuries after the Qur'an itself was revealed. However, the Qur'an specify that the Land of Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, that God Himself gave that Land to them as heritage and ordered them to live therein. It also announces that - before the end of the time - the Jewish people will come from many different countries to retake possession of that heritage of theirs. Whoever denies this actually denies the Qur'an itself. If he is not a scholar, and in good faith believes what other people say about this issue, he is an ignorant Muslim. If, on the contrary, he is informed about what the Qur'an and openly opposes it, he cease to be a Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Hadi_Palazzi

Tawfik Hamid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawfik_Hamid

Then there's Tashbih Sayyed, Salah Choudhury, Irshad Manji, Salim Mansur, Abdurrahman Wahid, Mithal al-Alusi, Zuhdi Jasser and those aren't even all of them.

LOL I read your link and it said NOTHING about Hamas using human shields - that was the claim you made which I disputed. Your link says simply that Hamas fires from densely populated areas. Well DUH - Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth - it‘s a tiny piece of land crammed with refugees that Israel drove out in 1947-1949, and has more than 4500 people jammed into each square kilometer. There are few places in Gaza that are more than a few steps away from a civilian home. You have released yet another cloud of unrelated ink. It’s good for squids, not so good for coherent arguments.

It's very pretentious to say that just because Gaza is a crowded place, they could not find better places to fire from than soccer fields, schools and hospitals.

You like to send me searching for even more, so here we go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G21GqWyC9jA

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

When you write this:

American citizens may boycott any company they like, for any reason they like - such as boycotting Chik-fil-A because of its owners attitudes towards gays - without any fear of legal prosecution or penalties. Here are some people living in a real democratic country, publicly and freely exercising their right to free speech, which is banned in Israel:

I'm sure you can see(or should be able to at least) how it could imply to certain people that it's not just about government policies in the west bank or west bank companies. And well, I'm gonna make sure that it's perfectly clear that that's not the case. Next time use a better example than Chik-fil-A(which btw I disagree with the boycotters but obviously think they have a right to boycott if they so choose).

Lulz you started this whole thing with your silly claim that Israelis have more rights than Americans. It simply isn’t true, and the Nakba law and the Boycott law are just two examples. I’m not going to keep arguing the same point with you just because you don’t want to admit that your government tries to shut down people who protest its crimes.

Now for a real laugh, check out what actually happened during the First Intifada when Beit Sahour (a town near Bethlehem in the occupied West Bank) tried to boycott Israeli milk by (*gasp*) having the shameless insolence to produce their own.

Israel went bonkers. Even had the most powerful army in the Middle East.... chasing after 18 cows.... for 4 years !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJcfJTELmoM&feature=player_embedded

In 1987, at the beginning of the first Intifada, Palestinian leaders asked their communities to develop Palestinian alter-natives to Israeli products. In response, a group of Palestinian activists started a cooperative dairy farm in Beit Sahour with 18 cows. All of the activists were intellectuals who knew nothing about raising cattle or operating a dairy. But, after some training (and the purchase of some cows from Israel), these newbie dairy farmers managed to start producing a high quality competitive product which became known as “intifada milk”.

However, once the cooperative became successful the Israeli army ordered its closure, declaring it a threat to national security. Defying the army, the activists covered their faces and went under cover. They hid the 18 cows in people’s houses and continued to produce milk.

The Wanted 18, is an animated documentary told from the unique perspective of the cows and the activists. Using stop frame animation, created by a team in Ramallah and Montreal, this documentary will also contain powerful filmed interviews with the Palestinian activists who initiated the dairy farm in 1988, members of the Israeli army as well as American dairy farmers who were involved in training one of the farmers.

"It's not over yet." But hey - don’t take BDS so hard. Israel always be able to sell cherry tomatoes to its BFFs - Palau, Nauru and Micronesia.

Like I said, no other western democracy is also in as precarious a situation as Israel. And that is regardless of my personal thoughts on the law which I've already said I disagree with, and also had to make sure it's mentioned it's a rather new law(so, you know, it doesn't seem like it's been in existance for 50 or 60 years) and that those laws don't tend to stick around for very long.

I didn't say there were billions living in the Middle East...but rather billions who would like to see Israel cease to exist. Ok maybe billions wasn't the right number to choose(remember I type in a hurry many times)...but at least hundreds of millions.

Israel’s entire existence depends on the good will of non-Jews. You'd think it would learn to stop pissing them off.

There aren’t special loopholes for countries to commit war crimes or human rights violations, no matter how “precarious” they imagine their “situation” to be. The gravest threat to Israel is its own government and its own behavior. If you can’t be a country without brutally oppressing millions of other people, complete flouting of the Geneva Convention, etc. - then you’ve lost your right to be a country anyway.

This eternal claim that Israel is “fighting for its very existence” is a complete and shameless lie, and it's a fig leaf for Israel to act with impunity. Israel has by far the most powerful military force in the entire region. It uses this power to continue to launch aggressive wars against its neighbors, confiscate their land, and expel or oppress their inhabitants, while all the time complaining about what its victims “might do” to get their land back “if they had a chance.” This is like saying “I get to keep raping the victim because she’s really mad now, and might even try to defend herself if I stopped pinning her down.” Logic of the criminally insane.

The rest of the world has already seen right through this ruse - and now more and more Americans are seeing through it, too, as the veil has been lifted on the pro-Israel Lobby that's been manipulating our media and our government. There is only a limited length of time that Israel can continue acting like a big infected pimple irritating the whole area - keep it up and eventually it will get squeezed.

If they could, they would. Fortunately, they can't.

No, it’s not fortunate at all that Israel is so much more powerful than its victims that they can’t even defend themselves against Israel‘s aggression. This is the root of the problem. Israel has been empowered beyond all imagination in its neighborhood in order to allow it to defend itself, but it uses this power to be the bully of the area - pushing people out of their homes, taking their land, and attacking its neighbors repeatedly.

Israel has dug itself into such a bottomless pit of illegal "facts on the ground" in the West Bank, it has long passed the point where it can even afford to abide by the law - it would go bankrupt paying fair reparations to its victims, not to mention relocating hundreds of thousands of illegal settlers back to Israel's actual legal territory. Israel’s greed for land has become a deadly addiction. And like a hopeless junkie, it can’t stop itself without an outside intervention.

Again, if you can’t exist as a country without brutally oppressing millions of other people, then you've already have lost the right to be a country.

The point that I mentioned Iceland, again, even though I already said it in my previous post, was just one example(out of many) that not all countries have the same laws, and it doesn't make them "unfree". It could make them less free, it could make them free in different ways, but just because the laws in Israel and the US don't match in everything does not mean people living in Israel do not enjoy alot more freedoms than over another 100 countries, and any other country in the Middle East.

And again with the Glittering Generalities.

Notice, I put two groups in there. "Pro Palestinian"(nothing with anti semitism) or Jewish hating activists. The Jew haters join in just because it's a convenient platform for them, gives them an opportunity or a chance to do what they want to do under a cover of something else.

Can I get a list of some of these Jew haters, please ? Or at least a list of some of the ones you feel are not anti-Semites ? These calculated attempts to throw some poo in the general direction of boycotters in the hopes that something might stick, without any specifics at all, are not adding up to a convincing argument. So come on - quit dancing around the details - name names already !

And I will continue in my next post.... this is going to be even more fun than the cows .

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Continuing...

You seem to like bringing up the Jews that act against Israel every chance you get. Well how about the flip side? I've already shown before what "Son of Hamas" says, but here's a few more.

LOL @ “act against Israel.” People are trying to save Israel from its biggest threat - its own behavior.

As for "Son of Hamas" -

You tried to smear boycotters as bigoted anti-Semites - without any specifics at all - but now you want to draw for the Mosab Hassan Yousef ?

I'll give you specifics. Yousef (as if you didn't know) is an Islamophobe and opportunist who gets $10,000 per appearance to talk sh!t about his father and Hamas and Muslims and Islam... and now he even wants to make an movie a la “The Innocence of Muslims” to try to demonize the Prophet Muhammad.

Guess what, OriZ ? There are some Jews or “ex-Jews“ who try to demonize the Jewish religion, as well - for instance, Israel Shamir/Izrail Schmerler/Joran Jermas/Adam Ermash/whatever his name is now. And yes, he criticizes Israel’s policies very harshly. But the rest of what he says puts him in the crapper. He rants against Judaism itself, and repeats all sorts of anti-Semitic trash about the Jewish people. I wouldn’t give those kinds of garbage-peddlers the time of day - much less stoop to posting clips from them as if they were any kind of credible source in any discussion of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. So step up your game - you're not playing in the Little League here.

However, the feud between “Son of Hamas” and Walid Shoebat is pretty amusing

http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/Up_Close/10/10/1102.htm

This is a puff piece (from the IDF’s own website ) about Israel’s First Token Arab Officer, who (not surprisingly) dutifully recites IDF propaganda about how great and “non-discriminatory” the IDF is and how it’s a “great supporter of human rights.” Pffft.

Of course the obvious question would be - “Why did it take the Israeli army so long - until 2010 ! - before it could manage to promote a single Israeli Arab to the rank of officer ? (even if was just to the level of Lieutenant.)

But if you read the article carefully, you see that this guys' job duties consist entirely of “educating” and “counseling” Israeli Palestinians for various IDF objectives. He’s still stuck in the Arab Ghetto.

And his actual motivations for joining the IDF are not quite what you would have us believe - if you read the article:

"It's very hard to grow up for a young man where I am from. You finish high school, some continue studying, and others work manual labor jobs. For example, if I had a degree in social work, at an interview they'll ask me if I served in the army. If not, my chances would plummet, and then I would have to go back to my village and do manual labor.”

So he’s saying he can’t even get a decent job in Israel unless he volunteers to serve in the military.

Whoever wrote this is completely clueless about how this stuff comes across to people who have moved beyond a colonial mentality. It’s classic tokenism (look it up) and it’s not helping your argument at all.

Gotta get steppin' now but I'll be back with comments on all of the rest of your links....

[OriZ 3,157]

Lulz you started this whole thing with your silly claim that Israelis have more rights than Americans.

Never said that. What I said was, there are certain things that you would find to be more free in each country, and that overall the US is a little more free. Btw, notice in that new thread with the best places to be born, that almost the only little blue area in this area of the world is Israel...

Now for a real laugh, check out what actually happened during the First Intifada when Beit Sahour (a town near Bethlehem in the occupied West Bank) tried to boycott Israeli milk by (*gasp*) having the shameless insolence to produce their own.

I personally have no problem when people want to make their own milk or anything else. I think it's stupid when they go after them in the states, too. Like I said before I consider myself a "half libertarian".

Can I get a list of some of these Jew haters, please ?

You seem to think everyone is some high profile VIP. I'm not talking about famous people, I'm talking about the average person, so while I do not know their names, I do know they're not doing it for the right reasons.

LOL @ “act against Israel.” People are trying to save Israel from its biggest threat - its own behavior.

Trying to boycott a country academically(which hurts them more than Israel, btw, as Israel has alot to contribute), prevent artists from going there, not buying its products and not investing in its markets is not how you save it from itself. It will lead to 0 results and like I said only hurts them.

Yousef is an islamophobe(funny though being he was born Muslim to one of the people who created Hamas) that saw the ins and outs of that organization if you can even call it that, knows how horrible it is, and decided to speak out against it.

But if you read the article carefully, you see that this guys' job duties consist entirely of “educating” and “counseling” Israeli Palestinians for various IDF objectives. He’s still stuck in the Arab Ghetto.

And his actual motivations for joining the IDF are not quite what you would have us believe - if you read the article:

So he’s saying he can’t even get a decent job in Israel unless he volunteers to serve in the military.

Well I already knew you were going to say that so I prepared ahead of time other links as well. Not ALL Muslims in the army do his job. Some actually VOLUNTEER to go to Combat. Many are in the frontlines. Why would they CHOOSE to be in the frontlines? It's not necessary in order to get a job. It's enough that you've done service, doesn't matter where, and alot of times that's not even needed(contrary to popular belief it IS possible to find a job, just a little harder in SOME places). I, for instance, did my whole entire service in a base inside Israel in the ordnance corps. It counts as good as if I spent 3 years in Lebanon. But believe it or not, many of them actually do want to contribute and give something back.

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=5727

http://www.timesofisrael.com/his-big-secret-hes-arab-muslim-and-serves-in-the-idf/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrubbQqHdwk

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/number-of-muslim-christian-arab-volunteers-in-idf-growing-1.145565

And here's one in Hebrew(couldn't find it translated) about a Muslim Arab who wants to volunteer to serve in border police and is getting threats and being beaten by his own people.

http://www.mynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4327779,00.html