Israel's response to the U.N.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Textbooks

Myth debunked:

Palestinian textbooks: Where is all that hatred?

Palestinian textbooks contain incitement to hatred of Israel, right? Both President George W. Bush and President Bill Clinton have said so. Zionist groups constantly lobby European foreign ministries to stop support for Palestinian textbooks on that basis, and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon affirmed it at a recent Likud party meeting.

Detailed analyses of the textbooks have been done by research institutes. The U.S. Consulate General in Jerusalem commissioned studies from the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information (IPCRI), and in Europe the Georg Eckert Institute facilitated research. Research papers have also been published in international fora such as the Hebrew University's Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, the Palestine-Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture, and presented at the Oslo Coalition on Freedom of Religion or Belief.

At the political level, a U.S. Senate subcommittee on Palestinian education and the Political Committee of the European Parliament have both held hearings on the matter. No country's textbooks have been subjected to as much close scrutiny as the Palestinian. The findings? It turns out that the original allegations were based on Egyptian or Jordanian textbooks and incorrect translations. Time and again, independently of each other, researchers find no incitement to hatred in the Palestinian textbooks.

The European Union has issued a statement that the new textbooks are free of inciting content and the allegations were unfounded. The IPCRI 2003 report states that the overall orientation of the curriculum is peaceful and does not incite to hatred or violence against Israel and the Jews, and the 2004 report states that there are no signs of promoting hatred toward Israel, Judaism or Zionism, nor toward the Western Judeo-Christian tradition or values.

…

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/18/opinion/18iht-edavenstrup_ed3_.html?_r=2&

But what about Israel’s textbooks - has anyone looked inside ? Turns out, they have:

Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

…

Cohen’s book is a study of the nature of children’s upbringing in Israel, concentrating on how the historical establishment sees and portrays Arab Palestinians as well as how Jewish Israeli children perceive Palestinians.

One section of the book was based on the results of a survey taken of a group of 4th to 6th grade Jewish students at a school in Haifa. The pupils were asked five questions about their attitude towards Arabs, how they recognize them and how they relate to them. The results were as shocking as they were disturbing: Seventy five percent of the children described the “Arab” as a murderer, one who kidnaps children, a criminal and a terrorist. Eighty percent said they saw the Arab as someone dirty with a terrifying face. Ninety percent of the students stated they believe that Palestinians have no rights whatsoever to the land in Israel or Palestine.

http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/179-washington-report-archives-1994-1999/september-1999/9609-israeli-textbooks-and-childrens-literature-promote-racism-and-hatred-toward-palestinians-and-arabs.html

See also “Palestine in Israeli School Books” by Nurit Peled-Elhanan, an Israeli professor of language and education. She examined 17 Israeli textbooks on history, geography and social studies, and found that the Israeli school system indoctrinates children in anti-Arab racism from an early age.

I can also show you scads of official and public textbooks, brochures, advertisements etc. that show the West Bank, the Golan Heights (sometimes even Gaza) as part of Israel with no demarcation of any border and some don't even mark Palestinian cities like Ramallah.

Sometimes I think it's like Israel's hyperactive public relations people and propaganda machine zealots have some kind of neurotic need to criticize others for what they do themselves - as if no one will notice they do the same thing if they keep screeching about someone else. Maybe it's subconscious.

I'm not saying you are one of them - I know you've been taught the stuff you post most or all of your life, and I don't blame you for trusting your government, etc. You seem like a reasonable person who is willing to at least listen to the other side.

But your government has been lying to you.

Just tryin' to crack that window open a little more

[OriZ 3,157]

Hmmm...does the government lie to me? Of course, I'd be the first to admit that and have already said I have issues with many things. Like every government, of course the government lies about some things. Show me one that doesn't. Does it lie more than any other government in the neighborhood? I don't believe so. I'd trust a government in a country with freedom of speech and internet that doesn't block websites before I'd trust governments in countries without freedom of speech or that do block the internet. I already know of most of what you've posted today, it's merely different sides and different opinions - if you looked at the links I posted yesterday. So we'll have to agree to disagree about that, too

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

OK now on to Lebanon...

Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 and kept being attacked for 6 years. Eventually it attacked back. Even the Lebanese Government puts the number of civilian casualties at 300-450, not more. 36 Lebanese soldiers killed and between 500-700 Hezbollah members killed. The day of the kidnapping, not only did that go on but Hezbollah was shooting rockets at civilian populations in the Galilee.

Israel pulled its troops out in 2000 only because they were kicked out by Lebanese guerilla fighters.

But although Israel’s ground troops left, Israel didn’t stop messing with Lebanon, and it is certainly not an innocent party only on the defensive. Israel continued to violate Lebanon’s airspace, sending military aircraft across the “blue line“ over Southern Lebanon “on an almost daily basis“ according to UNIFIL between 2000 and 2003, and “persistently“ until 2006. These illegal incursions, said UNIFIL, “caused great concerns to the civilian population, particularly low-attitude flights that break the sound barrier over population areas.“

And it didn’t stop after the 2006 war either. On Nov. 7, 2007, the Lebanese government reported 290 violations of Lebanese air space by the IAF and 52 ground incursions during the 4 month period prior to the report.

There was and still is much back and forth - and I am not saying that Hezbollah were angels. There were cross-border incidents on both sides, and even some rockets and mortars fired mostly against Israeli positions in Shebaa Farms (Lebanese territory which Israel still illegally occupies.) But all of these were fairly minor incidents and nothing like a war.

However, in 2006, Israel responded to one of these cross-border incidents with overwhelmingly disproportionate force. Why ? Well, it comes out that Israel had been preparing for and planning such an attack for more than a year- it just wanted an excuse to begin. Many of the targets Israel struck were not related to Hezbollah activities, but were rather chosen to methodically and systematically destroy Lebanon’s infrastructure.

Casualties:

The Lebanese government does not distinguish between civilians and combatants in death toll figures, so I don‘t know what “Lebanese government estimate” you are referring to. It is generally agreed that there were at least 1,109 Lebanese deaths, and the Lebanese Higher Relief Council, UNICEF, most press agencies and news organizations have stated that most of those killed were civilians. The UN said that one third of the casualties appeared to be children.

According to this new research, the conflict resulted in at least 1,109 Lebanese deaths, the vast majority of whom were civilians.

http://www.hrw.org/node/10734/section/5

(Note that Human Rights Watch also condemns Hezbollah for indiscriminate rocket fire into Israel.)

Don't forget that, again, like every terrorist organization, Hezbollah intentionally shoots from heavily population civilian population, which Israel did its best to avoid hitting.

Well, that's what the Israeli government says. But not according to Human Rights Watch:

In its strongest condemnation of Israel since last summer's war, Human Rights Watch said yesterday that most Lebanese civilian casualties were caused by "indiscriminate Israeli air strikes".

The international human rights organisation said there was no basis to the Israeli claim that civilian casualties resulted from Hizbollah guerrillas using civilians for cover. Israel has said that it attacked civilian areas because Hizbollah set up rocket launchers in villages and towns. More than 1,000 Lebanese were killed in the 34-day conflict, which began after Hizbollah staged a cross-border raid, killing three Israeli soldiers and capturing two others.

Israeli aircraft targeted Lebanese infrastructure, including bridges and Beirut airport, and heavily damaged a district of Beirut known as a Hizbollah stronghold, as well as attacking Hizbollah centres in villages near the border. Hizbollah fired nearly 4,000 rockets at northern Israel, killing 119 soldiers. In the fighting, 40 Israeli civilians were killed.

Kenneth Roth, Human Rights Watch executive director, said there were only "rare" cases of Hizbollah operating in civilian villages.

"To the contrary, once the war started, most Hizbollah military officials and even many political officials left the villages," he said. "Most Hizbollah military activity was conducted from prepared positions outside Lebanese villages in the hills and valleys around."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hizbollah-did-not-use-civilians-as-cover-401638.html

Israel didn't back off because of its casulaties, it backed off because it figured it had achieved most if not all it's going to achieve in that round. With the ceasefire came Hezbollah moving away from Southern Lebanon, the Lebanese army and international forces being stationed there instead, which is what Israel wanted. Once it was able to achieve that, there was no need to have more casualties on either side.

First, Israel claimed that the capture of the soldiers was an act of war by Lebanon, and that it needed a "shock and awe" campaign to get their release.

But then, Israel switched it story and claimed it was trying to stop Hezbullah’s rocket barrage (even though the rockets started after Israel launched its invasion.) However, Israel bombed not just Hezbollah rocket launchers, but much of Lebanon, including Beirut.

Then, the story changed to a third version: Israel claimed it needed to push Hezbullah (along with hundreds of thousands of Lebanese civilians) away from Lebanon's southern border with Israel. And consider that just before UNSC 1701 which brought about the end of hostilities, Israel decided to dump as many as a million tiny bomblets — old US stocks of cluster munitions with a very high failure rate — that are still lying in south Lebanon’s fields, playgrounds and back yards - still exploding every once in a while when some unsuspecting Lebanese walks by.

So these last couple of items may be the real clues as to Israel's true objective... perhaps to clear the way up to those lovely Litani waters ?

Gotta step out now... but will return to talk about Cast Lead, Col. Kemp, Kafr Qaddum and I think a revisit to the indoctrination topic....

Edited December 12, 2012 by wife_of_mahmoud

[OriZ 3,157]

For starters, Shebaa farms are not part of Lebanon but rather part of Syria. The Lebanese use that claim as an excuse being Israel pulled out of Lebanon completely, they needed an excuse to keep attacking it. So they found Shebaa farms. Even the UN(as we all know not the most pro-Israel organization in the world) agrees it is Syrian Territory that belongs to the Golan Heights:

The Shebaa Farms (Arabic: مزارع شبعا‎, Mazāri Šibā; Hebrew: חוות שבעא‎, Havot Shebaa or הר דוב, Har Dov) are a small uninhabited territory claimed by Lebanon, but occupied by Israel which claims that they are in the Golan Heights, a position the UN agrees with. Syrian policy is to vaguely accept the Lebanese claim, while refusing any binding demarcation until Israeli forces withdraw from the area.

The United Nations had to decide upon a "withdrawal line" for Israel to withdraw from Lebanon (for Security Council Resolution 425).The UN certified Israel's withdrawal as conforming to that line. However, to resolve the issue, the UN has proposed that Israel also withdraw from the Shebaa Farms and that it be considered international territory under UNIFIL.[6]

Documents from the 1920s and 1930s indicate that some local inhabitants regarded themselves as part of Lebanon, but after the French mandate ended in 1946, the land was administered by Syria, and represented as such in all maps of the time, including 1949 Armistice Agreement maps and Syrian and Lebanese military maps. The Shebaa Farms were then occupied by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_farms

However, in 2006, Israel responded to one of these cross-border incidents with overwhelmingly disproportionate force. Why ? Well, it comes out that Israel had been preparing for and planning such an attack for more than a year- it just wanted an excuse to begin. Many of the targets Israel struck were not related to Hezbollah activities, but were rather chosen to methodically and systematically destroy Lebanons infrastructure.

Israel was preparing because it always prepares. It doesn't "wait" for an excuse because it wants to attack, it just knows that "excuse" will come because it has such nice neighbors. It chose infrastructure because after it pulled out, and it said this many times before the war, any attack on it by Hezbollah would be considered an attack by Lebanon. If Lebanon can't control its organizations well Israel would pressure it to do so by attacking Lebanese infrastructure and guess what? It worked.

Ohh Human Rights Watch. At the end of the day it all comes down to this: You believe and trust your sources and I believe and trust mine and that's all there is to it. But here are a few links on human rights watch:

http://ngo-monitor.org/article/human_rights_watch_in_political_bias_against_israel_continues_despite_wider_middle_east_focus

http://www.inquisitr.com/432411/george-soros-funded-human-rights-watch-turns-their-back-on-genocide/

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=295129

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204619004574318344040299638.html

I'll stick with the footage I've seen of secondary explosions in areas attacked near civilian populations which proves they had weapons etc. I'll stick with the stories I've heard from people who were there or their friends or family was there who talked about calling off operations due to civilians being in the area.

Edited December 12, 2012 by OriZ

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Also, Cast lead did not happen till more than 2 years later, after Hamas and other organizations fired hundreds of rockets into Israel(de ja vu, anyone?)...it had nothing to do with the war in Lebanon.

This is the story that the Israeli government tells. But it is contradicted by information provided by the Israeli government on its own website.

On June 19th, 2008, Israel agreed to an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire with Hamas. It was so successful, the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs posted an article about it on June 27, 2006, titled “One Month of Calm Along the Israel-Gaza Border.”

As you can see from the Israeli government’s own chart, the agreement (called “the lull arrangement”) resulted in a significant decrease in rocket and mortar fire (note that it reads right to left):

During its first month, the lull arrangement resulted in a significant drop in rocket and mortar fire at Israel. A relative calm has settled over Sderot and Israeli population centers near the Gaza Strip, occasionally broken by rockets and mortar bombs fired by terrorist organizations which oppose the lull (mostly local Fatah networks, with the Palestinian Islamic Jihad violating the lull only on one occasion).

…

The cessation of the intensive fighting which had been going on before the lull has allowed the residents of Sderot and of western Negev population centers, as well as Gaza Strip residents, to return to normal life.

…

Publicly, Hamas leaders have stated time and again that the lull is a Palestinian national interest. On several occasions, Hamas members have arrested Fatah operatives who were involved in firing at Israel and confiscated their arms.

One month of calm along the Israeli border

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/One+month+of+calm+in+Gaza+28-Jul-2008.htm

Here is an expanded version of the graphic that reads left to right, and includes what happened afterwards:

As you can see, rocket fire had dropped to its lowest point by October. Then, on November 4, the Israeli army sent soldiers into Gaza and launched an air strike that killed 6 Hamas members (the group that Israel had signed a ceasefire with and, by the Israeli government’s own admission, was enforcing it well.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html?_r=2&

In response, 46 rockets and 16 mortars were launched from Gaza the next day, on November 5.

During the rest of November and December, Israeli forces invaded Gaza 9 more times, about once a week. Each incursion included air strikes, which killed dozens of people. As you can see from the chart, the rocket attacks increased during this period; however, no Israelis were killed.

Next, Israel’s own Defense Minister admitted that the rockets were a result of Israeli operations:

Earlier in the day Defense Minister Ehud Barak addressed the current situation in the region, saying "the recent waves of rocket attacks are a result of our operations, which have resulted in the killing of 20 Hamas gunmen. We will continue to operate with determination, but if the other side works towards restoring the calm, it will find us willing to do the same."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3626260,00.html

So - rather than defending Israel from rockets, Israel’s operations resulted in an increase in rocket fire. When Israel launched Cast Lead - which was a huge escalation in violence - the number of rockets escalated in return. And it was during this period that 3 Israelis were killed by rockets.

So - Cast Lead was not an operation to defend Israel from rockets - Israel had already stopped the rockets, without firing a shot - simply by coming to a ceasefire agreement with Hamas.

So - Israel willfully trashed a successful ceasefire and willfully murdered dozens of Palestinians in order to instigate some kind of response from Gaza - which didn’t even kill any Israelis - in order to use that as its excuse to turn most of Gaza into rubble and drop white phosphorus and DIME on Palestinian kids and slaughter 1400 people.

The result of the war in Lebanon? Quiet for the past 6 years in the north.

Ah, there's that quirky use of "quiet" again. "Quiet" in this sense means Israel continues to provoke its neighbors, but nobody provokes Israel.

Israeli violations of Lebanese sovereignty are breaches of Lebanese airspace, waters, and borders, that are illegal since they violate Lebanon's territory and United Nations Security Council Resolution 425 and 1701.[1][2][3]

The most frequent breaches are overflights by Israeli war planes and drones; such violations have occurred since the inception of the Israeli–Lebanese conflict, and have happened continuously and almost daily since the 2006 Lebanon war, being the source of much conflict between Lebanon and Israel.[4] Israeli warplanes sometimes stage mock attacks on Lebanese cities, and emit sonic booms that frighten civilians.[5][6]

In 2007 the Lebanese government complained that Israeli planes had flown into Lebanese airspace 290 times within four months, and that Israeli troops had crossed the border 52 times.[7]

In 2006 French Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie stated: "I remind that the violations of the airspace are extremely dangerous, they are dangerous first because they may be felt as hostile by forces of the coalition that could be brought to retaliate in cases of self defense and it would be a very serious incident."[8] US officials on visit in Israel also demanded that Israel stop the overflights since they undermined the standing of Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora.[9]

The Blue Line covers the Lebanese-Israeli border; an extension covers the Lebanese-Golan Heights border.

The UN has continuously protested the repeated Israeli overflights.[10][11] Lebanese officials fear the escalation in overflights heighten tensions and could lead to war.[12][13]

Israel rejects such critisicm, and claim the overflights are necessary.[14][15] In spite of this, a leaked US cable shows that Israel offered to stop such violations.[16]

On land, the Blue Line (Lebanon) is often crossed,[17] as well as incursions into the occupied Shebaa Farms.[18] The 2010 Israel–Lebanon border clash was also performed on the basis of claims of such violations.[19]

At sea, Israeli gunboats have shot into Lebanese territorial waters, and there have been Lebanese claims that Israel is breaching the law of the sea and might lay claim on Lebanese natural resources through the Tamar gas field.[20][21][22][23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_incursions_into_Lebanon

But as usual, Israeli government and military spokespeople will insist that their sh!t just don't stink.

The result of Cast Lead? Between 758-871 terrorists killed, 295-542 civilians(regrettably), and relative calm in 2009-2011.

Um, that would be the IDF claim again. Which means you take it with a extremely large grain of salt until you confirm from other sources. Every single word. Every single time.

According to B'Tselem (for those who didn't know, it an Israeli human rights organization): 1387 Palestinians were killed during Cast Lead, including 330 combatants. It says 773 of the dead were civilians, including 320 children. 248 of the dead were Palestinian police officers, most of them killed when Israel bombed the central police headquarters and 18 police stations in Gaza.

http://www.btselem.org/download/20090909_cast_lead_fatalities_eng.pdf

And it hasn't been too quiet in Gaza. Do you really want a list of all the attacks Israel has carried out on Gaza since Cast Lead ????

Edited December 13, 2012 by wife_of_mahmoud

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Typo:

On June 19th, 2008, Israel agreed to an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire with Hamas. It was so successful, the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs posted an article about it on June 27, 2006 2008, titled “One Month of Calm Along the Israel-Gaza Border.”

Edited December 13, 2012 by wife_of_mahmoud

[JoBri 548]

Go Israel! Woo hoo!

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

How hard does Israel try to avoid civilian casulaties?

Not hard enough. Remember... "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail" (- lunatic fringe leader Rabbi Yaacov Perrin.)

http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1313923&ct=7536409

And here is something a little more recent, just from days ago:

<< UN Watch article/Col. Richard Kemp speech >>

Col. Richard Kemp

Paid shill-for-Israel Col. Kemp was not even in Gaza or Israel during Cast Lead, nor did he conduct any fact-finding mission in Gaza or Israel. He says he bases his “opinion” on press reports and “publicly available information.” In other words, he recites IDF press releases in an earnest and sober tone. He was hired by the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs to defend the Israeli army’s behavior, repeating all sorts of unsubstantiated IDF claims such as that Hamas supposedly “discarded their uniforms once fighting began,” and “deployed women and children as suicide attackers.”

So he pals around with the IDF and was employed by an Israeli organization to write and recite IDF propaganda - this is hardly the same thing as being an unbiased, informed authority on what actually occurred during Cast Lead.

UN Watch

UN Watch is a pro-Israel NGO lobby founded by the American Jewish Committee and funded by the World Jewish Congress, which has strong ties to many Israeli groups. Its main objective is attacking the UN in general and its human rights council in particular any time either one criticizes Israel, and to promote Israeli interests. Of course it doesn’t bother with complaining about transgressions against the human rights of the Palestinians.

So you can take everything it says with another very large grain of salt, and seek confirmation from independent sources.

In fact, I can't help but notice that many of your sources seem to track back to the same group of people - either the Israeli government, or the IDF, or their satellite organizations, or their cheerleaders. I am not saying to ignore them; I am saying to check out alternative sources other than mouthpieces for official Israeli policy. By the way I read Israeli newspapers and blogs on a daily basis, from all over the spectrum, and Israel has some of the best commentators I have ever seen on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

<< article about incident of Israeli soldiers running away from stone-throwers in Kafr Qaddum >>

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4317755,00.html (video inside)

Surely, the protestors there look very deterred...and seeing soldiers run I'm sure will deter them even more in the future, or not...but the next time when someone actually fires a bullet, it'll be all over the media.

Here's the video:

So Israeli soldiers try to enter a Palestinian village in the occupied West Bank where they are not welcome, and the residents drive the foreign invaders away. Good to see.

Let’s have some background here, because the story of Kafr Qaddum is a microcosm of what goes on all over the West Bank.

Kafr Qaddum

Kafr Qaddum is a Palestinian village of 4000 people deep in the West Bank, near Nablus. It’s been there for centuries. The people who live there are mostly farmers.

You can see the satellite view of Kafr Qaddum and the nearby illegal settlements here (just zoom it out a little bit and you will see the settlements):

http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Kafr_Qaddum_1264/SatelliteView.html

After the 1967 war when Israel invaded and occupied the West Bank, there was a movement in Israel called Gush Emunim in Israel, led by some religious fanatics who were committed to colonizing the occupied Palestinian territories with Jewish settlements. One of these Gush Emunim affiliates established an illegal outpost called Kdumim next to Kafr Qaddum in 1975.

This outpost was initially designated as illegal even by the Israeli government, which made some feeble efforts to remove the settlers. However, they had friends in high places, including Menachem Begin. And once he got elected in 1977, they were in like Flint.

After the Oslo accords in 1993, Israel designated half the village lands as part of Area C - the part of the Palestinian West Bank that was placed under complete Israeli administrative and security control for a supposedly temporary 5-year-period, after which Palestinians were supposed to have their own state based on the 1967 armistice lines. Palestinians live throughout this area, but there are no Palestinian police or Palestinian authorities there to protect them. They are at the mercy of Israeli soldiers and police, and it is in Area C that most of the illegal settlement problems have occurred.

So Kdumim grew from a small illegal outpost of a few trailers, into a small town, and then added satellite towns. As its cluster grew, it appropriated more and more agricultural land from the residents of Kafr Qaddum and other nearby villages.

During the early 2000s, the IDF blocked the road that connects Kafr Qaddum with Nablus (the center of their district and the nearest large Palestinian city) as well as the neighboring villages of Jit and Sarra, forcing the people of Kafr Qaddum to take a 15 km or more detour. Israel is now in the process of annexing further territory from Kafr Qaddum to expand the settlement.

For the last year and a half, the residents of Kafr Qaddum have joined the popular struggle against the occupation, The Wall and the illegal settlements, staging a weekly protest demonstration every Friday at their village mosque. The IDF has responded with brutal force, routinely raiding the village, harassing, beating and arresting residents including protest leaders, and tear-gassing the demonstrators. It sets up army checkpoints inside the village to further harrass residents. In April, the soldiers even tried to arrest a 2-year-old child, whom they claimed had a slingshot. Here is the IDF siccing a police dog on an unarmed protestor at Kafr Qaddum:

IDF soldiers sic dog on Palestinian protestor

So the residents of Kafr Qaddum would like the Israeli soldiers and settlers to go back home to Israel.

Edited December 13, 2012 by wife_of_mahmoud

[OriZ 3,157]

So you are saying that a few rockets every month is acceptable. You sign an agreement in order for there to be zero rockets, you don't sign an agreement going alright I'll accept a few here and there. Of course the rockets during the operation were in part due to the operation, same with pillar of defense, same with casulaties, we're used to that and we deal with it, you sacrifice in the short term for the long run...The point is even if it's painful(like every war is) you are willing to deal with it for a little while in order for there to be more calm afterwards.

And, what do you do if you're in a ceasefire but you have information that a group is planning an attack on you? Do you wait to be attacked, just so that you don't get blamed for ending the ceasefire, or do you hit first to prevent the attack?

On November 4, 2008, Israel launched a military strike on Hamas to destroy what Israel said was a tunnel on the Gaza-Israel border dug by militants to infiltrate into Israel and abduct soldiers. According to Israel, the raid was not a violation of the ceasefire, but a legitimate step to remove an immediate threat. Israeli infantry, tanks, and bulldozers entered 250 m into the Gaza Strip, the first major incursion since the June truce. A gunfight broke out, in which one Hamas fighter was killed. Hamas responded with a barrage of mortar and rocket fire at Israeli troops. Three Israeli airstrikes on Hamas mortar and rocket positions then killed five Hamas fighters. According to eyewitnesses, another three Hamas fighters were wounded in an Israeli UAV strike over the el-Burejj refugee camp.[85] Three Israeli soldiers were also wounded during the operation. Hamas said it would take revenge for what it perceived as an act of Israeli aggression that had violated the truce.[85][86] Hamas launched 35 rockets into southern Israel in what was described by Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum as a "response to Israel's massive breach of the truce, stating that "The Israelis began this tension and they must pay an expensive price. They cannot leave us drowning in blood while they sleep soundly in their beds."[87][88]

Intensity of rocket attacks targeted at Israeli cities near Gaza sharply increased during November 2008, approaching pre-truce levels. Clashes also took place along the border, during which 11 Palestinian militants were killed.[89] In the period between November 4 incident and mid-December, more than 200 Qassam rockets and mortar shells landed in the western Negev region. Israel has frequently shut down the crossings in response to rocket attacks on its towns.[90]

[edit] DecemberOn December 13, Israel announced that it favored extending the cease-fire, provided Hamas adhered to the conditions.[90] On December 14, a Hamas delegation in Cairo proposed that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza.[91] On the same day, Hamas officials said that earlier reports, quoting Khaled Meshaal as saying there would be no renewal of the truce, were inaccurate. A Hamas spokesman said that the lull would not be renewed, "as long as there is no real Israeli commitment to all of its conditions".[92] A spokesman for the Israeli Prime Minister replied that Israel was committed to the truce but "it's clear there can't be a one-sided ceasefire, ... where rockets are everyday coming from the Gaza Strip targeting Israeli civilians."[92]

On December 17, a 40-year-old Palestinian was killed by IDF fire in Northern Gaza.[93] The following day, December 18, Hamas declared the end of the cease-fire, a day before the truce officially expired.[94] More than 20 rockets were fired from Gaza into southern Israel on that day.[95]

On December 19, Hamas refused to enter talks to renew the six-month truce and a Hamas spokesman announced that it would not extend the cease-fire.[93][96] Palestinian sources said that Hamas wanted to renew the truce, but only on improved terms a complete opening of the border crossings with Israel, the opening of the Rafah border crossing with Egypt, a complete ban on Israeli military activity in Gaza and an extension of the truce to the West Bank as well. Israel was not ready to accept these terms.[93] This was confirmed by Yuval Diskin, head of Shin Bet (Israel's internal security agency), at an Israeli cabinet meeting on December 21. Diskin said he thought Hamas was "interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms ... it wants us to lift the siege of Gaza, stop attacks, and extend the truce to include the West Bank".[97] Three Qassam rockets fired from the northern Gaza Strip landed in Israel.[98]

On December 22, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said that his country will not accept the ongoing rocket fire from the Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, who supported the truce until recently, suggested to take active military actions against the Hamas government in Gaza.[99]

On December 23, senior Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar said that Hamas was willing to renew the cease-fire under the original terms, demanding an Israeli commitment to refrain from any military operation in the Strip and to keep the border crossings open. Speaking with Egyptian newspaper al-Ahram, al-Zahar said that the movement would reassess the situation in Gaza once the 24 hours during which Hamas vowed to halt rocket fire had ended.[100] Despite the temporary ceasefire declared by the armed Palestinian factions, eight Qassam rockets and eight mortar shells hit the Negev.[101][102] Also that day, Israeli Defense Forces killed three Palestinian militants, stating they were planting explosives on the border.[103]

On December 24, an Israeli airstrike hit a group of militants in Gaza Strip. An Israeli military spokesman said that the militants had fired mortars at Israel. Palestinian medics said that one Hamas militant was killed in the strike and two other Palestinians were wounded, including a cameraman from Hamas' television station.[104] On that day, Hamas military wing issued a statement saying that it began an operation code-named "Operation Oil Stain". 87 Palestinian mortar shells, Katyusha and Qassam rockets hit the Negev.[105][106] Hamas said that it would expand the "Oil Stain" and put thousands of Israelis "under fire". Hamas said it was ready for the war: "far greater than surrendering to Israeli threats and that they became much more prepared to counter Israeli aggression and to defend themselves than in the past."[105]

On December 25, after Israel had "wrapped up preparations for a broad offensive", Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert delivered a final warning in an interview with the Arabic language satellite channel al-Arabiya. He said "I am telling them now, it may be the last minute, I'm telling them stop it. We are stronger."[107] Another 6 Qassams landed in southern Israel.[108]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

Not hard enough. Remember... "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail" (- lunatic fringe leader Rabbi Yaacov Perrin.)

You're doing the same thing you(rightfully) told someone else is not right to do. You know exactly how I feel about religion so quoting a Rabbi really doesn't do it for me.

So you don't like Kemp. How do you feel about Goldstone?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

http://www.therightperspective.org/2011/04/02/goldstone-i-was-wrong-about-operation-cast-lead/

By the way I read Israeli newspapers and blogs on a daily basis, from all over the spectrum, and Israel has some of the best commentators I have ever seen on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

Like I said, where there is freedom of speech, freedom of religion, a free press, internet that's not limited and so forth there's generally nothing to hide. Show me something similar anywhere in the region.

Edited December 13, 2012 by OriZ

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Why do the soldiers have to be there in the first place?

Basically, because the demonic and unreasonable Palestinian savages get offended when their farmlands are stolen and bulldozed to make another exclusive suburb for illegal foreign squatters, and they try to prevent the loss of their property. So the soldiers have to go in to protect the illegal squatters from the angry and unreasonable rightful owners - I mean gosh, otherwise there might be justice !

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

<< Fox News article based on Jonathan Schanzer interview >>

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/07/how-close-did-israel-just-come-to-its-own-cuban-missile-crisis/

Foxnews is in the tank for Netanyahu and the hardliners in Israel. On that issue, there is no pretense of being "Fair and Balanced."

Exactly.

So who is Jonathan Schanzer, anyway, and why should we believe a word he says ? Fox News says he is a former counter-terrorism analyst at the US Department of the Treasury.

A peep at his resume reveals many more clues:

Schanzer was a Research Fellow at the WINEP (Washington Institute for Near East Policy - a pro-Israel think-tank which was created as the research unit for AIPAC.)

Before that, he was a research fellow at Middle East Forum, another pro-Israel think-tank run by Islamophobe Daniel Pipes.

Schanzer is a frequent contributor to Commentary Magazine, the rightwing neocon Zio-phile rag run for many years by PNAC warmonger Norman Podhoretz.

He wrote a research paper titled “The Talibanization of Gaza: A Liability for the Muslim Brotherhood,” which tries to compare Hamas to the Taliban (although Hamas AND the Muslim Brotherhood are ideologically opposed to the Taliban.)

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

“Fair and balanced” ?! Pfft. Connect the dots. Schanzer is part of the problem (and so is Fox News) - the Israeli right-wing’s matrix of pro-Israel/pro-settler/pro-occupation neocons who try to manipulate American public perceptions as well as American government policy for the benefit of Lukidnik agendas.

Edited December 13, 2012 by wife_of_mahmoud

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Also, you can't hold the stick on both sides. You can't condemn Israel for doing what many people have done for centuries and say it needs to get on with the times, but yet commend the Palestinians for doing what people have done for centuries. If it's not right for Israel to be occupying the same way people occupied for most of mankind(even though it isn't really even the same way...when was the last time an Israeli soldier went into a house and raped a Palestinian? When was the last time Israel made someone convert to Judaism? And there's many other differences but we'll leave that alone right now) then it is also not right for the Palestinians to be resisting the same way don't you think?

And besides, that's the moral side of it. We were talking about international law. I still haven't seen where in international law it says occupied people can resist by attacking the occupier's civilian population.

I think you missed the point of that Hanukkah essay.

Slavery, occupation, ethnic cleansing - yes, done through much of history, and all internationally condemned today.

Violent resistance to occupation - yes, done through much of history, but not condemned today - in fact, resistance to occupation is usually encouraged and is also internationally recognized as the right of occupied people.

Of course it’s illegal to attack civilians. That’s what Israel keeps doing - attacking and oppressing Palestinian civilians. That‘s why there are countless UN resolutions against it.

But when Israel illegally transfers its so-called civilians into occupied territory to establish illegal colonies on illegally confiscated land, and provide these illegal colonists with weapons as well as military protection (not to mention even allowing/encouraging them to harass and assault the native population and destroy their property), then they become a militia, not civilians.

Israel forcibly herds Palestinians into corrals/cages to try to make it impossible for them to fight back, then it moves its civilians right up next to the cage. If these caged Palestinians manage to fire some kind of projectile out of their cage, Israel calls them “terrorists” and claims they are deliberately trying to kill civilians due to their psychopathic hatred of Jews. Israel just can't seem to understand why these unreasonable savages won’t sit there in their cage and just die quietly while Israel completes its Piece Process in peace - taking the rest of Palestine.

I don’t condone any deliberate attack on civilians. Not by Israel. Not by Palestinians. But I am not going to make some blanket condemnation of the entire Palestinian resistance and say that well… maybe 10 million people just don’t deserve freedom and justice for going on 70+ years because some Palestinian militants eventually carried out attacks that killed Israeli civilians (as well as Israeli soldiers) over the final 20 of those past 70 years. Just as I wouldn’t say that 6 million Israelis don’t deserve freedom and justice just because Zionist militias carried out scores of homicide bombings that killed thousands of Palestinians over several decades, or because Israel’s government continued an illegal and violent occupation and settlement program for 40+ years that has killed thousands more Palestinians.

Resistance to occupation is a legally protected right. It is Israel that fails to abide by international law - it is a belligerent, illegal and violent occupier. Israel has been censured and condemned repeatedly by the international community for its illegal occupation and settlements. Israel has been repeatedly told to end its occupation and settlements. So Palestinian violent resistance to occupation (which is their right) is a direct result and consequence of Israel’s failure to abide by international law.

As far as acts of rape or forced conversion - please give specific examples so that I can comment. Without any specifics, I can only say in general that rape or forced conversion would obviously be considered a crime or an abuse of human rights, and that these cases certainly should be prosecuted. But they are still not justification for Israel ethnically cleansing Palestine, nor would they justify Israel's illegal occupation, illegal settlements, the blockade and siege of Gaza, etc. Rapes and forced conversions are not "worse" than what Israel is doing collectively to the Palestinians.

Anyway, since you brought up rape, here is just one example of Israeli soldiers (not just random garden-variety criminals) sexually assaulting Palestinian children in custody as part of their interrogation techniques:

CNN: Israeli soldiers sexually abused Palestinian children

And here is something equally disturbing:

According to Col. Eyal Qarim of the IDF’s Military Rabbinate, it is permitted for a Jewish soldier to rape a gentile woman during wartime:

“Is it allowed in our days [sic] for an IDF soldier, for example, to rape girls during a fight, or is such a thing forbidden?”

Rabbi Qarim answered thus:

“The wars of Israel […] are mitzvah wars, in which they differ from the rest of the wars the nations wage among themselves. Since, essentially, a war is not an individual matter, but rather nations wage war as a whole, there are cases in which the personality of the individual is “erased” for the benefit of the whole. And vice versa: sometimes you risk a large unit for the saving of an individual, when it is essential for purposes of morale. One of the important and critical values during war is maintaining the army’s fighting ability […]

As in war the prohibition against risking your life is broken for the benefit of others, so are the prohibitions against immorality and of kashrus. Wine touched by gentiles, consumption of which is prohibited in peacetime, is allowed at war, to maintain the good spirit of the warriors. Consumption of prohibited foods is permitted at war (and some say, even when kosher food is available), to maintain the fitness of the warriors, even though they are prohibited during peacetime. Just so, war removes some of the prohibitions on sexual relations (gilui arayot in the original - YZG), and even though fraternizing with a gentile woman is a very serious matter, it was permitted during wartime (under the specific terms) out of understanding for the hardship endured by the warriors. And since the success of the whole at war is our goal, the Torah permitted the individual to satisfy the evil urge (yetzer ha’ra in the original - YZG), under the conditions mentioned, for the purpose of the success of the whole.”

(Read the article to see what happened when the reporter asked the IDF to clarify its position):

http://972mag.com/idf-colonel-rabbi-implies-rape-is-permitted-in-war/39535/

[OriZ 3,157]

The violent resistance thing though in the past was also towards civilians and that was my point.

But when Israel illegally transfers its so-called civilians into occupied territory to establish illegal colonies on illegally confiscated land, and provide these illegal colonists with weapons as well as military protection (not to mention even allowing/encouraging them to harass and assault the native population and destroy their property), then they become a militia, not civilians.

Israel forcibly herds Palestinians into corrals/cages to try to make it impossible for them to fight back, then it moves its civilians right up next to the cage. If these caged Palestinians manage to fire some kind of projectile out of their cage, Israel calls them “terrorists” and claims they are deliberately trying to kill civilians due to their psychopathic hatred of Jews. Israel just can't seem to understand why these unreasonable savages won’t sit there in their cage and just die quietly while Israel completes its Piece Process in peace - taking the rest of Palestine.

I'm not even talking about the rockets, or military conflict. I'm talking about suicide bombings and other such attacks in which you know 100% you are targeting innocent civilians that just want to live in peace. That's not a legitimate form of resistance and you know it.

I don’t condone any deliberate attack on civilians. Not by Israel. Not by Palestinians. But I am not going to make some blanket condemnation of the entire Palestinian resistance and say that well… maybe 10 million people just don’t deserve freedom and justice for going on 70+ years because some Palestinian militants eventually carried out attacks that killed Israeli civilians (as well as Israeli soldiers) over the final 20 of those past 70 years. Just as I wouldn’t say that 6 million Israelis don’t deserve freedom and justice just because Zionist militias carried out scores of homicide bombings that killed thousands of Palestinians over several decades, or because Israel’s government continued an illegal and violent occupation and settlement program for 40+ years that has killed thousands more Palestinians.

I don't either so we are in agreement there. However, attacks on civilians started more than 20 years ago. Much more.

As far as acts of rape or forced conversion - please give specific examples so that I can comment. Without any specifics, I can only say in general that rape or forced conversion would obviously be considered a crime or an abuse of human rights, and that these cases certainly should be prosecuted. But they are still not justification for Israel ethnically cleansing Palestine, nor would they justify Israel's illegal occupation, illegal settlements, the blockade and siege of Gaza, etc. Rapes and forced conversions are not "worse" than what Israel is doing collectively to the Palestinians.

What I meant was just past occupiers or conquerers, including the ottomans but I wasn't referring to a specific religion, I was just making a point that you can't even completely compare Israeli occupation to many occupations of the past as it simply does not do those things.

And why are you back to the Rabbi thing again? He has his own personal opinion, as wrong as it may be, which it is, and I(and I'm sure 99% of soldiers or anyone, really) completely disagree with. But it is not an opinion he offered as part of his service in the IDF, just his own personal twisted thoughts. So why should it matter, especially to me being I don't really care about religion, any religion?

And yes, I know you will say this website is biased too, but there's a few points I agree with here...

http://unitedwithisrael.org/hamas-media-strategies/

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Irrelevant. There have been many many cases of indoctrination, this video just happens to be one out of many I happened to pick out of youtube the other day. I could have picked plenty of others.

I can only comment on what you actually post. So if you have something that’s actually credible, I am glad to look at it. But stuff like PMW is like Kryptonite for your argument (kind of like cameras are Kryptonite for Israeli Occupation Forces.)

Those can't all be illegitimate sources can they?

I am not saying that all your sources are illegitimate or not credible, but you have to actually read each article carefully and completely to intepret what it says, in order to figure out if it actually supports your argument.

So let me go through these one by one:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-television-still-glorifies-terror-attacks-against-israel-1.413485

This is a story about a Palestinian television report about a Palestinian convicted of “masterminding” two suicide bomigns in Israel in 2002, who is now serving 35 life sentences in an Israeli prison. The Palestinian reporter allegedly refers to him as a “warrior hero” and other praises.

If you read further down, you see that the story tracks back to PMW.

It’s pretty funny and hypocritical that this seems to piss off the Haaretz reporter, considering that Israelis have elected so many of their terrorists to the office of Prime Minister - Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir and Ariel Sharon. And as you probably already know, there are many, many memorials in Israel to Jewish terrorists - there are museums dedicated to them, and streets, squares, etc. named in their honor. Only Israel doesn’t call them terrorists - it calls them “heroes.”

For instance, let’s take Avraham Stern, who found the LEHI group (also known as the Stern Gang.) LEHI carried out many terror attacks on Palestinians, including the horrendous massacre at Deir Yassin, a joint operation with co-terrorists Irgun.

LEHI also assassinated the UN-appointed mediator Count Folke Bernadotte (who incidentally had saved thousands of Jews from Nazi death camps during World War II) - because he wanted to implement the UN Partition Plan. (They had already decided they were going to try to take all of Palestine, and he was an obstacle to that.) LEHI also assassinated Lord Moyne, the highest ranking British official in the region at the time, and tried to bomb various British targets in Europe.

And LEHI pioneered the truck bomb.

Yet, there’s actually a museum in Tel Aviv dedicated to Stern and his LEHI terror group, and which glorifies them:

http://www.yourway.co.il/The_Lehi_Museum.html

Note that the museum is located on a street which is also named in honor of Avraham Stern.

The Israeli government issued a postage stamp in Stern's honor, and his memorial day is attended every year by Israeli political and government officials. There’s even a town named after him - Kokhav Ya’ir (Ya’ir’s Star) - Ya’ir was Stern’s alias.

Ben-Gurion never made any moves to shut down Irgun or the Stern Gang until after the state of Israel was established. At that point, they were disbanded but many of their members were simply absorbed into the Israeli army.

And Israel even honors its terrorists when they've attacked US interests:

“President Katzav presented three surviving members of the ‘Lavon affair’ with certificates of appreciation at a Jerusalem ceremony Wednesday.”

http://www.hsje.org/israel_honors_9_egyptian_spies.htm

(I am hoping that you are familiar with the Lavon affair; if not, I can provide the specifics of how and why these Israeli terrorists tried to bomb the US embassy in Cairo.)

But clearly it's different when Israel does it.

Will continue in next post....

Edited December 14, 2012 by wife_of_mahmoud