Israel's response to the U.N.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I did read everything you posted, however, we can agree to disagree on some stuff. The numbers I know speak of almost a million between 1948 and the early 70's.

Yes, resolution 181 was not binding, just as the current one is not binding(yet I have no problem with it).

I agree that there were nearly a million Jews who left Arab countries after the 1948 war; I am just saying that not all of them nor even the majority were refugees (forced out or fled.)

All refugees have the same right to return to their homelands; they also have the right to return to their specific homes and property or to opt for just compensation for their losses. I fully support the right of Arab Jews to return to their homelands or receive compensation for lost property.

This is how states were established all throughout history, actually in much worse manners, based on no decision at all - not even a non binding one - I'm not gonna repeat what some people have said on these forums before along the lines of to the winner goes the spoils because that's neither always humane nor true, and like I said I believe neither side is a saint and both sides are at equal fault to what brought us this far, we can't always agree on history but we can both agree on what needs to be done moving forward. Neither side is going away and both parties need to acknowledge the fact that the other side is here to stay, both peoples have lived with each other for so long that they probably couldn't live without each other now even if it were possible to attempt it.

Yes, I'm aware that there were things done by the Jewish side as well, as per this link for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine

Note that here also, the Arab attacks are "first". But that's not the point. This is not kindergarten and it doesn't matter who "started". We can sit and compare links and massacres all day. The point of the matter is like I've said above and like I've said in previous posts neither side is free of wrongdoing and the region needs peace moving forward which can only be achieved by a two state solution agreed upon by both sides.

'

I agree with you here - what happened has happened, and we can't change that. We can only move forward in the quest for peace and justice. A two state solution would be the preferable one; the problem is the settlements and what they have created.

I have also shown in what I posted(I guess YOU didn't read THAT huh? ) that indeed some of the Jews thought it was sufficient, and then there were others who thought it was a chance to get more of the land. I don't hide the truth and I don't paste only what "suits" my "side". I posted that black on white and that is also the reason why I posted what I posted about Samu. It's not that I didn't read it. I always try(not just here but with everything in life) to be as objective as I can be.

Sorry if I missed one of your links - I was diligently trying to respond to each point But yes, I agree that there were some alternate opinions in early Zionism - there were some amazingly prescient guys who advised a bi-national state from the beginning. They warned of the consequences of trying to drive out such an overwhelming percentage of the population.

But these voices of sanity were a marginal group, and the majority of Zionists including the leadership (and I mean Weizmann, Jabotinsky, Ben Gurion, etc.) were all committed to expanding beyond the territory Israel later accepted for itself in its declaration of statehood.

Anyway, the State of Israel’s recognition by and admission to the UN as a member state is based on the borders described in the partition plan, and according to the UN, no change can be made except through legal means (a negotiated settlement between the parties.)

Israel has no agreement with the Palestinians, but it continues to treat the occupied territories as available expansion space at its disposal.

Specifically, since 1967, the settlement enterprise has continued and increased in pace facilitated and funded by the Israeli government, and protected by the Israeli military. No Israeli government has ever told the settlers “We are just moving you here temporarily and we’re planning to give this land back to its rightful owners once we get a peace treaty.“ There is no way the settlements are intended as a bargaining chip - they are intended to expand Israel’s territory. They cannot be explained in any other way - they do not provide security, they do not facilitate a peace agreement, and they are in fact a direct obstacle to peace. They instigate further hostilities.

So the idea that settlements might be used as bargaining chips is kind of like a criminal who grabs a hostage and offers to let the hostage go in return for getting away with his crimes.

The 2-state solution has been a charade since before Oslo. Seriously - what does Netanyahu intend to do with the Palestinians ? Hope they will disappear ? Force them all into Gaza ? Put them on ships to Germany ?

Again, all I was saying about that was in response to the attacks by Jews that you've said happened between 48 and 67...my point was that those attacks followed other attacks on the Jews, which brings me back to what I said in the first place to which you replied that. Had they just been left alone, they would have seen no need to retaliate. Maybe they still would have...maybe. I'll assume they wouldn't. But we'll never know.

Most of what I've seen Palestinian kids say(as they're dressed up like a martyr) is that their dream is to grow up, fight the Jews, kick the Jews off of their land and be martyrs so their people can return to Haifa, Nazareth, Jerusalem etc. No matter how much you think you've been wronged, teaching your child literally since breastfeeding that "resistance" is the only way and that killing as many Jews as possible will get you your land back is wrong.

The same thing can be said for Palestinians - if they'd just been left alone, they wouldn't have had to retaliate. And international law gives occupied peoples the right to resist, by any means necessary

As far as the kids, there is plenty of indoctrination of the youth going on in Israeli society. I could post the pics of the girls signing the Lebanon missiles, or pics of little kids with Expel The Arabs signs, or what Israel has been teaching in its public school textbooks. But this little film made by an Israeli filmmaker says it all. These kids don't come up with these ideas all by themselves:

(Don't know why I can't seem to imbed it.)

There are some other films I will link about kids in Gaza that may open that window just a little more

I happen to be one of a growing number of people who really think the system should be changed, and there are going to be attempts in the coming years, whether successful or not, to change it. Right now it is ridiculous, not just because of the settlers but also the Orthodox Jews. You can't have a coalition without appeasing all those small parties, which creates a bloated government, and government spending not in the right places. Here's to hoping it'll be changed soon.

Again I have to disagree with you though, I think a center-left government will seriously seek peace based on a two state solution, and will not cave into the same demographics that Netanyahu has to cave in to.

I think everyone who is genuinely interested in justice for both people hopes against hope that you’re right.

But even if this change eventually comes, it’s not coming in time - I don't think the Palestinians are going to be content to continue waiting until some undetermined time in the future when the Israelis may get around to electing a government with the nuts to stand up to the settlers, or even the ability to withstand the political repercussions of trying to stand up to them. It will require serious international pressure on Israel to force it to give up the settlements

We will have to again agree to disagree on the point of wars. Just because someone wages a war does not necessarily mean they do not want peace and vice versa. Just like we disagreed 2-3 weeks ago about pillar of defense, we are bound to disagree on this too. And that's ok - it doesn't mean neither of us wants peace any less than the other. Olmert waged the war on Hezbollah due to the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers...Israel already pulled out of Lebanon and yet they kidnapped 3, and then another 2. The second time "broke the camel's back" so to speak. There are atrocities that happen in war but again - Israel does not deliberately target civilians, at least that is my belief. I actually know from second hand stories from people who served whether in Lebanon, or Gaza, of operations that were cancelled once it was found that there are many civilians nearby, or assasinations of someone long sought after that were called off for the same reason. So to call a defensive war a massacre I completely disagree with, which brings me back to what I said a few days ago...I don't agree with everything Israel does. Internal or foreign. Socially, economically, politically. I have issues with more things than you can imagine. But when it comes to Israel's right to defend itself - I defend it. And to me that's all Olmert was trying to do. That does not make him want peace any less than you or me.

Defense from what ? Hezbollah was not invading Israel; it grabbed some soldiers to try to do a prisoner exchange for its guys. I could see a small operation, but Olmert bears the responsibility for Israel slaughtering 1200 civilians in Lebanon 2006, using targeted missile strikes that managed to kill less than 500 Hezbollah fighters (UN estimate; Hezbollah says it was less than 100.) I don’t think it was a case of Israel intentionally targeting civilians; I think it was complete and wanton disregard for civilians. That’s an almost 20-to-1 ratio of hitting the wrong people for the so-called pinpoint accuracy of the so-called most moral army in the world. In contrast, the so-called bloodthirsty terrorists Hezbollah in their so-called targeting of civilians killed 43 Israeli civilians and 121 soldiers, a ratio of almost 3 soldiers for every one civilian hit.

Israel didn’t back off Lebanon until it started taking heavy casualties - much heavier than it had anticipated. Then, instead of engaging Hezbollah again, it assuaged its bruised ego by turning 180 degrees to shoot fish in a barrel again - Cast Lead on Gaza. Another atrocity of disproportionate force against civilians.

[OriZ 3,157]

The 2-state solution has been a charade since before Oslo. Seriously - what does Netanyahu intend to do with the Palestinians ? Hope they will disappear ? Force them all into Gaza ? Put them on ships to Germany ?

I have no idea being I'm not in his head but I can only hope none of the above lol

The same thing can be said for Palestinians - if they'd just been left alone, they wouldn't have had to retaliate. And international law gives occupied peoples the right to resist, by any means necessary

I do not believe international law gives anyone the right to target civilians intentionally. Including occupied people.

As far as the kids, there is plenty of indoctrination of the youth going on in Israeli society. I could post the pics of the girls signing the Lebanon missiles, or pics of little kids with Expel The Arabs signs, or what Israel has been teaching in its public school textbooks. But this little film made by an Israeli filmmaker says it all. These kids don't come up with these ideas all by themselves:

Even though I think some of those kids need to grow a brain which I'm sure they will at some point in their life, I still don't see the comparison. They're not dressed like martyrs. They don't go to a summer camp where all they do is learn how to shoot weapons and fight the evil enemy. They don't watch shows like Mickey Mouse that are used to incite them against anyone. They don't learn in their textbooks that Israel is from the Jordan river to the sea - they do actually acknowledge occupation - whereas Palestinian textbooks treat all of the land, including Haifa, Tel Aviv etc as Palestinian land. So the level of indoctrination is not comparable in my view.

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=845&fld_id=845&doc_id=6856

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzlFPm7bymY

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=408&fld_id=408&doc_id=6844

I'm sorry but Israel has nothing like that, that I know of anyway.

There are some other films I will link about kids in Gaza that may open that window just a little more

Please do.

Defense from what ? Hezbollah was not invading Israel; it grabbed some soldiers to try to do a prisoner exchange for its guys. I could see a small operation, but Olmert bears the responsibility for Israel slaughtering 1200 civilians in Lebanon 2006, using targeted missile strikes that managed to kill less than 500 Hezbollah fighters (UN estimate; Hezbollah says it was less than 100.) I dont think it was a case of Israel intentionally targeting civilians; I think it was complete and wanton disregard for civilians. Thats an almost 20-to-1 ratio of hitting the wrong people for the so-called pinpoint accuracy of the so-called most moral army in the world. In contrast, the so-called bloodthirsty terrorists Hezbollah in their so-called targeting of civilians killed 43 Israeli civilians and 121 soldiers, a ratio of almost 3 soldiers for every one civilian hit.

Israel didnt back off Lebanon until it started taking heavy casualties - much heavier than it had anticipated. Then, instead of engaging Hezbollah again, it assuaged its bruised ego by turning 180 degrees to shoot fish in a barrel again - Cast Lead on Gaza. Another atrocity of disproportionate force against civilians.

Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 and kept being attacked for 6 years. Eventually it attacked back. Even the Lebanese Government puts the number of civilian casualties at 300-450, not more. 36 Lebanese soldiers killed and between 500-700 Hezbollah members killed. The day of the kidnapping, not only did that go on but Hezbollah was shooting rockets at civilian populations in the Galilee. Don't forget that, again, like every terrorist organization, Hezbollah intentionally shoots from heavily population civilian population, which Israel did its best to avoid hitting. Israel didn't back off because of its casulaties, it backed off because it figured it had achieved most if not all it's going to achieve in that round. With the ceasefire came Hezbollah moving away from Southern Lebanon, the Lebanese army and international forces being stationed there instead, which is what Israel wanted. Once it was able to achieve that, there was no need to have more casualties on either side. Also, Cast lead did not happen till more than 2 years later, after Hamas and other organizations fired hundreds of rockets into Israel(de ja vu, anyone?)...it had nothing to do with the war in Lebanon. The result of the war in Lebanon? Quiet for the past 6 years in the north. The result of Cast Lead? Between 758-871 terrorists killed, 295-542 civilians(regrettably), and relative calm in 2009-2011.

How hard does Israel try to avoid civilian casulaties?

GENEVA, October 16, 2009 -- Today's emergency UN Human Rights Council debate on the Goldstone Report predictably saw a line-up of the world's worst abusers condemn democratic Israel for human rights violations. In a heated lynch mob atmosphere, Kuwait slammed Israel for intentional killing, intentional destruction of civilian objects, intentional scorched-earth policy, saying Israel embodied the Agatha Christie novel, 'Escaped with Murder'. Pakistan said the horrors of Israeli occupation continue to haunt the international communitys conscience. The Arab League said, We must condemn Israel and force Israel to accept international legitimacy." Ahmadinejads Iran said the atrocities committed against Palestinians during the aggressions on Gaza should be taken seriously and followed up by the international community to put an end to absolute impunity and defiance of the law.

What the world's assembled representatives did not expect, however, was the speech that followed (see text below), organized by UN Watch. We invited as our speaker a man who repeatedly put his life on the line to defend the democratic world from the murderous Saddam Hussein, Al Qaeda, and the Taleban. The moment he began his first sentence, the room fell silent. Judge Goldstone, author of the distorted report that prompted today's one-sided condemnation of Israel but not Hamas, had refused to hear Col. Kemp's testimony during his "fact-finding" hearings. But UN Watch made sure today that this hero's voice would be heard -- at the U.N., and around the world

---------------------------------------

Thank you, Mr. President.

I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Governments Joint Intelligence Committee.

Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population.

Hamas, like Hizballah, are expert at driving the media agenda. Both will always have people ready to give interviews condemning Israeli forces for war crimes. They are adept at staging and distorting incidents.

The IDF faces a challenge that we British do not have to face to the same extent. It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong, that they are abusing human rights.

The truth is that the IDF took extraordinary measures to give Gaza civilians notice of targeted areas, dropping over 2 million leaflets, and making over 100,000 phone calls. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties. During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza. To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks.

Despite all of this, of course innocent civilians were killed. War is chaos and full of mistakes. There have been mistakes by the British, American and other forces in Afghanistan and in Iraq, many of which can be put down to human error. But mistakes are not war crimes.

More than anything, the civilian casualties were a consequence of Hamas way of fighting. Hamas deliberately tried to sacrifice their own civilians.

Mr. President, Israel had no choice apart from defending its people, to stop Hamas from attacking them with rockets.

And I say this again: the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

Thank you, Mr. President.

http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1313923&ct=7536409

And here is something a little more recent, just from days ago:

The past week has seen two incidents involving soldiers and Palestinians causing the IDF much embarrassment. An initial investigation of an incident in the West Bank last Friday in which IDF soldiers were forced to flee a mob of stone-throwing Palestinians suggests that the troops did not act in a professional manner.

An IDF inquiry conducted by officers in the Judea and Samaria Division determined that the soldiers should have demonstrated resolve instead of retreating.

A video that surfaced over the weekend shows Palestinians stoning Israeli security forces, eventually forcing them to run for cover - similiar to the incident in Hebron.

Six IDF soldiers equipped with shields and crowd-dispersal means found themselves ambushed by a crowd of stone throwing Palestinians in the West Bank village of Kafr Qaddum.

The combatants tried to hide behind a wall but soon came under a barrage of stones and decided to escape the scene with the protesters chasing after them, throwing stones at them and calling "Allahu Akbar."

S., a soldier serving in the Hebron sector, says that the troops' hands are effectively tied. "The orders we are given for situations such as this are just vague, and we all feel that this is intentional," he says.

"More than anything the images humiliate us as combatants who are supposed to carry out much more complex missions. We have no ability to handle a group of protesters because our hands are simply tied. It's not that we're not trained to handle these protests. We need to be given tools."

According to S., orders to open fire address situations of a clear and present danger and only if there is a person with the means and intent to kill. "But what is an angry mob throwing stones and sometimes rocks at you if not a life threatening situation? I wouldn't order opening fire at a crowd of people but we can't have a situation where you stand in front of a person with a rock and start to ask yourself is this person life threatening. If I shoot at him I go to jail."

T., a combatant in an infantry brigade, also claims that soldiers are not equipped to handle the complex situation on the ground. "There's nothing more humiliating for a combatant than to see his friends run," he says.

He criticizes the army for sending such a small group of soldiers to Qaddum on Friday at a particularly volatile time.

T. says the cameras on the ground undermine the forces' efforts. "A commander or an officer sees a camera and becomes a diplomat, calculating every rubber bullet, every step. It's intolerable, we're left utterly exposed. The cameras are our kryptonite."

IDF forces are trained not to get dragged into protesters' provocations and instead demonstrate resolve. In preparation for possible West Bank riots in September 2011, IDF Chief of Staff Benny Gantz instructed the army to place senior commanders at the head of patrols.

The IDF is now checking whether a junior commander had made the decision to flee the scene in Kafr Qaddum.

The IDF Spokesperson's Unit said in response, "The event documented in the video is being investigated by the top commanders in the field.

"The incident occurred during a violent and illegal riot in Qaddum - one of the most violent areas in the Judea and Samaria district. The IDF updated its crowd-dispersal guidelines following the event."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4317755,00.html (video inside)

Surely, the protestors there look very deterred...and seeing soldiers run I'm sure will deter them even more in the future, or not...but the next time when someone actually fires a bullet, it'll be all over the media.

Edited December 10, 2012 by OriZ

[OriZ 3,157]

Hundreds of Iranian-made, long-range missiles already smuggled into Gaza provided a secret sense of urgency behind Israel's recent campaign against Hamas, and the the Jewish state acted with the Obama administration's full knowledge, intelligence experts told FoxNews.com.

Jonathan Schanzer, a former counter-terrorism analyst at the U.S. Department of the Treasury, said the real agenda behind Israel’s assault last month on Hamas’ munitions stockpiles and smuggling tunnels was not simply to end the daily barrage of relatively primitive rockets that have become part of daily life in Israel. The real mission was to eliminate as many as 100 Iranian-built Fajr5 missiles - with the power to reach Tel Aviv - that had been sneaked into Gaza through Egypt. The Obama administration knew in advance of the operation and agreed that the missiles, built in a Sudanese factory, had to be neutralized to protect millions of Israeli citizens who were now within range of the deadly Iranian weapons, according to Schanzer.

“The U.S. was fully aware of what was going to come in Gaza,” Schanzer, now vice president of research at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, told FoxNews.com. “They said nothing for the first few days of the operation; there was dead silence from [Obama]."

Israel essentially achieved its main aims within the first few days, said Schanzer, noting that Michael Oren, Israel’s ambassador to the U.S., said as much when he remarked on Day Three of the campaign: "We have run out of good targets.”

Rocket attacks from Gaza were commonplace in Israel prior to the campaign, dubbed "Operation Pillar of Defense," with at least 750 projectiles falling on the area close to the border since January. The attacks were ratcheted up in early November, which seemed to prompt Israel's move and the deployment of its vaunted "Iron Dome" defense system. But behind the scenes, the Israel Defense Force (IDF) had a more pressing need to launch their intense bombardment on Hamas’ weapons stores.

Israel's elimination of senior Hamas figure Ahmad Jabari as he drove in broad daylight in Gaza also fits into Schanzer's narrative.

“Ahmad Jabari, along with another major Hamas figure, Mahmoud al Mabhouhk, [who was assassinated in Dubai in 2010], was a key part of the procurement network for the Fajr missiles and there is little doubt that Israel was keen to take out the man responsible,” Schanzer explained.

Schanzer contends that the operation actually began three weeks earlier, when, on Oct. 23, the Iranian-owned Yarmouk armaments factory in Sudan - believed to be the assembly plant for the Fajr5 missiles that have a range of up to 45 miles - was devastated by air strikes for which the Sudanese government holds Israel responsible. Israel, and for that matter the U.S., both deny any knowledge of the attack.

Sudanese Information Minister Ahmad Bilal Osman, told Al Jazeera the day after the attack, “Israel has accused Sudan of sending arms to Hamas. These allegations are not correct. The factory manufactures ordinary, legal weapons.”

When asked how Sudan would respond to the incident, Osman answered, “We definitely won’t attack Israel itself…but we have a right to tackle the interests of Israel wherever they are from now on.”

It may not have been coincidental that the destruction of the Sudanese factory occurred at exactly the same time that a joint Israeli/U.S. military exercise, ‘Austere Challenge’, involving some 3,500 U.S. troops, was taking place in Israel. Some military analysts have suggested that the exercises and the Gaza operation were part of a dry run for a potential future incursion into Iran.

The suggestion of American knowledge and approval of the alleged Israeli attack in Sudan and the subsequent offensive in Gaza, undermines the theory that Obama and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu were not on speaking terms after the elections, in which Netanyahu expressed support for Mitt Romney. The grave threat posed by the Fajr5 rockets may have been enough for both leaders to agree that something had to be done – and fast.

“The fact of the matter is that there was a significant upsurge in rocket fire from Gaza in the weeks leading up to the operation," an Israeli administration source told FoxNews.com. "Once the need to respond was there, it made sense to take the opportunity to act against the most dangerous weapons. Those (the Fajr rockets) were the first targets. There was a need to minimize their ability to target major population centers in Israel.”

The apparent coordination between Israel and the U.S. raises questions about the role of Egypt, which was credited with helping broker a cease fire between Israel and Hamas. The missiles were almost certainly smuggled into Gaza from Egypt, with the likely knowledge of President Morsi, whose Muslim Brotherhood is the parent organization of Hamas.

“There’s little doubt that Iranian-built rockets came from Sudan through Egypt, and that Egypt’s security forces weren’t interested in intercepting the missiles," Eric Trager, of the Washington Institute, an expert on Egyptian affairs, told FoxNews.com. "Morsi was more interested in furthering his own internal agenda than worrying about foreign policy issues at that time.”

Had Israel not acted when it did to destroy Hamas’ new and more lethal stockpile of weapons, the situation could have escalated, drawing other parties into a wider Middle East war.

“I think that Washington and the international media have been so lazy in their coverage of this conflict in terms of identifying what actually happened,” Schanzer said. “Both the Israeli intelligence community and Israeli officials referred to the presence of Fajr5 missiles in the hands of Hamas as 'game changing rockets,' a change that very nearly produced Israel’s own Cuban missile crisis.”

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/07/how-close-did-israel-just-come-to-its-own-cuban-missile-crisis/

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Surely, the protestors there look very deterred...and seeing soldiers run I'm sure will deter them even more in the future, or not...but the next time when someone actually fires a bullet, it'll be all over the media.

Why do the soldiers have to be there in the first place?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/07/how-close-did-israel-just-come-to-its-own-cuban-missile-crisis/

Foxnews is in the tank for Netanyahu and the hardliners in Israel. On that issue, there is no pretense of being "Fair and Balanced."

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Hai OriZ - my time is short today, so I can't reply in depth right now. But you've opened a lot of new cans of worms and I have a quite a bit to add on your recent posts - and I will be back with that later today or tomorrow.

Also I meant to wish you Happy Hanukkah. Here's some food for thought on the occasion...

Happy Hanukkah? Thanks, but not for me

by Avigail Abarbanel on December 10, 2012

Soldiers in the Israeli military celebrate Hanukkah. (Photo: IDF Spokesperson Facebook page)

Every year since I left Israel, at about this time of year, well-meaning, polite people wish me Happy Hanukkah. But I don’t celebrate Hanukkah because it is a festival that offends my values and ethics. People tend to think that it’s some kind of a Jewish version of Christmas, but they are wrong.

The festival of Hanukkah celebrates the rededication of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem as part of a successful rebellion against the Greek occupiers in Judea during the period 175 to 134 BC. After Alexander’s death the Greek empire was divided and Judea became part of the Greek Seleucid Empire, which also included Syria. Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the ruler of the Seleucid Empire, turned Jerusalem into a Greek-style polis, built a gymnasium, turned the Jewish temple into a temple for the Greek god Zeus, and brutally suppressed Jewish religion. Practices like reading the Torah, circumcision and observing the Sabbath were banned and punishable by death.

The rebellion led by Judas Maccabeus and his brothers was run as a guerrilla war against the Seleucid army but initially involved murdering Jewish collaborators who adopted Hellenic culture and religion. This guerrilla war involved many battles and in the end Judea was able to establish itself as a Roman client state and free itself from the Greeks. During one of the battles a band of rebels was able to overcome a small Seleucid garrison guarding the temple. They took it back and rededicated it as a Jewish temple. The word Hanukkah is derived from the root of the Hebrew word ‘inaugurate’ or ‘dedicate’.

This event is celebrated in the festival of Hanukkah as a miracle from god with a few myths thrown in. One of those is the myth of the little can of consecrated olive oil that was found in a corner of the temple, and that miraculously lasted eight days allowing the Menorah to be lit for the eight days of the celebration. The Bar-Ilan University professor who taught us about Hanukkah as part of a unit on Jewish festivals said no one knows who made up this myth, but it stuck. It is told every year to little children in Israel and in Jewish communities around the world, as a way of conferring divine blessing on the successful rebellion against the Greek occupation forces.

The problem I have with Hanukkah (and many other Jewish festivals) is that I refuse to celebrate a blood bath, glorify war or justify murder of anyone, even in the name of our own liberation or survival. Many Jewish festivals are based around stories of our deliverance from oppression, and triumph over those who wished to annihilate us or just gave us a hard time. To my taste, too many of them rejoice in the killing of others and justify what we did in the name of the survival of our Jewish identity. (I don’t celebrate Passover either, because I can’t rejoice in the death of all the eldest sons of Egypt, or Purim where Hamman and his ten sons were murdered for plotting to kill the Jews.)

Growing up, I learned so many stories about how our people resisted occupation and subjugation. They weren’t always about battles and wars. Sometimes they were just about the human spirit resisting subjugation regardless of a horrible cost. One of the goriest stories, and one that as a child I found also deeply moving, was about Hanna and her seven sons who were brutally murdered one by one in front of her because she refused to eat pork. We were taught in no uncertain terms that one does anything to be free, one does not bow to occupiers and one does not tolerate oppression or any attempt to subjugate our religion, our way of life or our national character.

Given the realities of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, I find the hypocrisy of Hanukkah intolerable. It’s OK for us Jews to celebrate (hugely and spectacularly) our efforts to liberate our own people from occupation, no matter the cost, no matter who lives or dies on our side or the other. But it is not OK for the Palestinians. No-one condemns Judas Maccabeus and his rebels as terrorists. They are revered as freedom fighters with a just and even divinely decreed cause regardless of their brutality. The Greek occupiers are despised venomously in the story of Hanukkah, but no-one thinks there’s a problem with Israel being an occupier.

Of course at this point supporters of Israel are likely to say that the comparison is unfair. Israel isn’t an empire like Greece was; it is only trying to be a safe haven for the long persecuted Jewish people. But do the reasons behind occupation and colonisation matter when their evils and crimes are the same?

Another thing that is revealed in the documents behind Hanukkah is that there was horrible and bloody infighting within the Jewish community itself during that period. There was corruption and endless intrigue in relation to the position of the High Priest and his relatives, collaboration with the Greek occupiers, power, status and money. This is the kind of dynamic that happens when a people are under occupation, the power struggles that go with that and the different approaches to dealing with the occupation. It’s never pretty.

So when people criticise the Palestinian people, I stay out of it and I always think to myself, What do you expect? This is what happens when people are under occupation. They are responding as human beings have always responded under similar circumstances, including us Jews. Why should the Palestinians be held to a different standard than the Jews back then, or the French during the Nazi occupation, India during British colonisation, the Scots or any other occupied group throughout human history?

The problem is never with the response; it is always with the occupation. Colonisers and occupiers are not benign. They are cruel and exploitative, and there is nothing the colonised and occupied can do that will ever be right. No occupier ever tolerates any resistance, peaceful or violent. They crush them both because they interrupt and threaten the agenda of the occupier. Occupied people can do nothing right when dealing with a force bent on taking what they have and destroying them if they get in the way of it.

I used to like Hanukkah as a child because it’s fun for children. You get to light pretty candles, sing really nice, albeit gory, traditional songs (Maoz Tzur is positively shocking if you know what the words mean), and eat yummy sweet, fatty food, like fried potato patties (latkes) and jam doughnuts (sufganiot). (Both of these are traditional Eastern European dishes, not really Jewish as such, but Israel has always been dominated by Ashkenazi culture.) So when I gave up all of this years ago, it was a little sad, but it’s been a worthwhile sacrifice to make so I can live according to my ethics.

It’s time for Jewish supporters of Israel around the world, and in particular for Israeli Jews, to wake up and see the terrible irony of celebrating Hanukkah while Israel occupies the Palestinians. Why can’t they see that they are playing the part of the Greeks and that the Palestinians are responding the same way the Jewish rebels did back then? If Jewish culture glorifies and celebrates our rebellious and uncompromising spirit, why does it condemn that same spirit in others?

Avigail Abarbanel was born and raised in Israel. She moved to Australia in 1991 and now lives in Scotland. She works as a psychotherapist in private practice and is an activist for Palestinian rights. Avigail is the editor of Beyond Tribal Loyalties: Personal Stories of Jewish Peace Activists (Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2012). Her website.

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/12/happy-hanukkah-thanks-but-not-for-me.html

[OriZ 3,157]

Thank you although I don't really celebrate Hanukkah either, not for quite the same reasons but close. I've mentioned before how I feel about organized religion, any religion, I ain't gonna go and choose what I believe based on blind faith, and so far many of them have not been proven to me to be true. It's kind of funny when every year we celebrate Christmas for my wife, we have the tree up and everything...and she has to be the one to pressure me into lighting the candles, when I couldn't care less. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Also, you can't hold the stick on both sides. You can't condemn Israel for doing what many people have done for centuries and say it needs to get on with the times, but yet commend the Palestinians for doing what people have done for centuries. If it's not right for Israel to be occupying the same way people occupied for most of mankind(even though it isn't really even the same way...when was the last time an Israeli soldier went into a house and raped a Palestinian? When was the last time Israel made someone convert to Judaism? And there's many other differences but we'll leave that alone right now) then it is also not right for the Palestinians to be resisting the same way don't you think?

And besides, that's the moral side of it. We were talking about international law. I still haven't seen where in international law it says occupied people can resist by attacking the occupier's civilian population.

Edited December 11, 2012 by OriZ

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I still haven't seen where in international law it says occupied people can resist by attacking the occupier's civilian population.

What does it say about attacking and imprisoning the occupied's civilian population?

[^_^ 5,021]

International law isn't worth a bucket of warm (or cold, for that matter) spit.

It merely serves as a cover for powerful international forces when these forces decide they want something.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

To continue...

I have no idea being I'm not in his head but I can only hope none of the above lol

You can get an idea of what goes on in his head right here, as he brags to illegal settlers in Kiryat Arba about deceiving the US in order to destroy the Oslo peace accords and keep control of most of the West Bank:

I don't know why my video embeds are no longer working - never had a problem before.... hmm.

But Netanyahu says:

0:01

Netanyahu: Turn off the camera so that we can elaborate on this.

0:05

Narrator: A few minutes later... the camera is turned on again and Netanyahu begins to speak without quotation marks and without masks

0:13

Netanyahu: Now we're beginning to understand the meaning of the slogan 'Yesha Zeikan Judea, Samaria, and Azza are here'

0:18

Netanyahu: Yesha is everywhere, what is the difference.

0:20

Netanyahu: What does Arafat want? He wants one big settlement [implies Palestinians see all of Israel as a settlement].

0:24

Woman: Yes that's what my daughter in law who came from England says [i.e. they, Palestinians, see Tel Aviv as a settlement also].

0:29

Netanyahu: Tel Aviv is also a settlement. From their point of view [Palestinians], our territorial waters are also theirs.

0:33

Netanyahu: The fact is that they want us in the sea. Over there... [gestures] in the distant water.

0:35

Netanyahu: The Arabs now are preparing for a campaign [or war] of terror, and they think that this will break us.

0:39

Netanyahu: The main thing is, first and foremost, to hit them hard.

0:45

Netanyahu: Not just one hit... but many painful, so that the price will be unbearable.

0:49

Netanyahu: The price is not unbearable, now.

0:51

Netanyahu: A total assault on the Palestinian Authority.

0:55

Netanyahu: To bring them to a state of panic that everything is collapsing.

1:02

Netanyahu: ...fear that everything will collapse... this is what we'll bring them to...

1:05

Woman interrupts: But wait a minute, at that point the whole world will say 'What are you occupiers?' Netanyahu: The world will say nothing. The world will say that we are defending ourselves.

1:11

Woman: Aren't you afraid of the world Bibi? Netanyahu: No

1:14

Netanyahu: Especially now, with America, I know what America is.

1:17

Netanyahu: America is a thing that can be easily moved. ...moved in the right direction.

1:22

Netanyahu: They [Americans] will not bother us.

1:26

Netanyahu: Let's suppose that they [Americans] will say something [to us - Israelis]... so they say it... [so what?]

1:31

Netanyahu: 80% of the Americans support us.

1:33

It's absurd! We have such [great] support there!

1:35

And we say... what shall we do with this [support]?

1:37

Look, the other administration (that of Clinton) was pro-Palestinian in an extreme way.

1:41

I was not afraid to manuever there. I did not fear confrontation with Clinton.

1:44

I was not afraid to clash with the U.N.

1:47

Netanyahu: As it is, I am paying the price in the international arena...

1:49

So I might as well receive something of equal value in exchange.

1:51

Child: But never mind that. We gave them things, and we can’t take them back. Because they won’t give them back to us.

1:56

Netanyahu: [Gestures for child to let him speak] First of all, Oslo is a system [or package of things].

1:59

You're right, a) I do not know what can and cannot be taken back [from Palestinians] Woman: He has political opinions, believe me.

2:03

Netanyahu: He's right.

2:04

Woman: He said such things to Arik Sharon that I told him: that’s not – that’s not a child’s opinion. The Oslo Accords are a disaster.

2:08

Netanyahu: Yes, I know that and you know that... but the people need to know

2:13

Woman: Right. But I thought that the prime minister did know, and that he’d do everything so that, somehow, not to do critical things, like handing over Hebron, that…

2:23

Netanyahu: What were the Oslo Accords? The Oslo Accords, which the Knesset signed, I was asked, before the elections: “Will you act according to them?” and I answered: “Yes, subject to reciprocity and limiting the withdrawals.

2:34

Netanyahu: But how do you limit the withdrawals? I interpret the accords in such a way that will enable me to stop this rush toward '67 borders [returning to armistice line]. [so...] how do we do it?

2:44

Narrator: The Oslo Accords stated at the time that Israel would gradually hand over territories to the Palestinians in three different stages, unless the territories in question had settlements or military sites. This is where Netanyahu found a loophole.

2:56

Netanyahu: No one said what defined military sites. Defined military sites, I said, were security zones. As far as I’m concerned, the Jordan Valley is a defined military site.

3:06

Woman: Right [laughs]. The Beit She’an settlements. The Beit She’an Valley.

3:09

Netanyahu: How can you tell. How can you tell? But then the question came up of just who would define what Defined Military Sites were. I received a letter – to me and to Arafat, at the same time...

3:21

which said that Israel, and only Israel, would be the one to define what those are, the location of those military sites and their size. Now, they did not want to give me that letter, so I did not give the Hebron Agreement.

3:40

I stopped the government meeting, I said: “I’m not signing.” Only when the letter came, in the course of the meeting, to me and to Arafat, only then did I sign the Hebron Agreement.

3:52

Or rather, ratify it, it had already been signed. Why does this matter? Because at that moment I actually stopped the Oslo Accord.

3:59

Woman interrupts: And despite that, one of our own people, excuse me, who knew it was a swindle, and that we were going to commit suicide with the Oslo Accord, gives them – for example – Hebron. I never understood that.

4:11

Netanyahu: Indeed, Hebron hurts. It hurts. It’s the thing that hurts. One of the famous rabbis, whom I very much respect, a rabbi of Eretz Yisrael, he said to me: “What would your father say?”

4:21

I went to my father. Do you know a little about my father’s position? Woman: Yes Child: No [laughs] Woman: He'll read in a little while.

4:31

Netanyahu: He’s not exactly a lily-white dove, as they say. So my father heard the question and said: 'Tell the rabbi that your grandfather, Rabbi Natan Milikowski, was a smart Jew.'

4:41

'Tell him it would be better to give two percent than to give a hundred percent. And that’s the choice here. You gave two percent and in that way you stopped the withdrawal. Instead of a hundred percent.'

4:53

Netanyahu: The trick is not to be there and break down. The trick is to be there and pay a minimal price.

5:01

Woman: May you say that as prime minister.

5:03

Netanyahu: In my estimation that will happen.

I do not believe international law gives anyone the right to target civilians intentionally. Including occupied people.

It seems that only Israel has the right to target civilians intentionally - it need only claim (after the fact, and without the burden of providing any evidence) that the dead were “collateral damage,” or even that the dead were actually “human shields for terrorists” or other such nonsense.

Palestinian resistance groups of course are not accorded such loopholes about trying to hit military targets and accidentally missing, or that the Israeli soldiers were hiding behind civilians - even though 1.) there are Israeli soldiers and Israeli military bases all over Israel and occupied Palestine right next to civilian areas, and often right in the middle of them - and 2.) Palestinian weapons are far less sophisticated (not to mention cause far less damage) than what Israeli has, and therefore have a greater margin of error.

And the distinction is irrelevant to Israel anyway, whose spokesmen represent every single Palestinian attack against Israeli soldiers as “terrorism” as well.

Even though I think some of those kids need to grow a brain which I'm sure they will at some point in their life, I still don't see the comparison. They're not dressed like martyrs. They don't go to a summer camp where all they do is learn how to shoot weapons and fight the evil enemy. They don't watch shows like Mickey Mouse that are used to incite them against anyone. They don't learn in their textbooks that Israel is from the Jordan river to the sea - they do actually acknowledge occupation - whereas Palestinian textbooks treat all of the land, including Haifa, Tel Aviv etc as Palestinian land. So the level of indoctrination is not comparable in my view.

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=845&fld_id=845&doc_id=6856

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzlFPm7bymY

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=408&fld_id=408&doc_id=6844

OMG the MEMRI fraud mouse clip is back ! I have covered this several times already on this board.

In the Hamas video clip issued by Memri, a Mickey Mouse lookalike asks a young girl what she will do “for the sake of al-Aqsa”. Apparently trying to prompt an answer, the mouse makes a rifle-firing gesture and says “I’ll shoot”.

The child says: “I’m going to draw a picture.”

Memri’s translation ignores this remark and instead quotes the child (wrongly) as saying: “I’ll shoot.”

Pressed further by the mouse – “What are we going to do?” – the girl replies in Arabic: “Bidna nqawim.” The normal translation of this would be “We’re going to [or want to] resist” but Memri’s translation puts a more aggressive spin on it: “We want to fight.”

The mouse continues: “What then?”

According to Memri, the child replies: “We will annihilate the Jews.”

The sound quality on the clip is not very good, but I have listened to it several times (as have a number of native Arabic speakers) and we can hear no word that might correspond to “annihilate”.

What the girl seems to say is: “Bitokhoona al-yahood” – “The Jews will shoot us” or “The Jews are shooting us.”

This is followed by further prompting – “We are going to defend al-Aqsa with our souls and blood, or are we not?”

Again, the girl’s reply is not very clear, but it’s either: “I’ll become a martyr” or “We’ll become martyrs.”

In the context of the conversation, and in line with normal Arab-Islamic usage, martyrdom could simply mean being killed by the Israelis’ shooting. However, Memri’s translation of the sentence – “I will commit martyrdom” turns it into a deliberate act on the girl’s part, and Colonel Carmon has since claimed that it refers to suicide bombers.

MEMRI’s Doctored Mickey Mouse-Hamas Story and How It Suckered the MSM

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2007/05/16/memris-fabricated-mickey-mouse-hamas-story-and-how-it-suckered-the-msm/

MEMRI is a Zionist/IDF propaganda machine, disseminating distorted dis-info, mistranslations and out-of-context clips to promote Islamophobic hysteria and extreme right-wing Likudnik agendas.

According to Haaretz, the IDF plants fabricated stories in the Arab media, which MEMRI then translates and distributes.

“…members of the unit used the Israeli media to emphasize reports initiated by the unit that it managed to place in the Arab press….Psychological warfare officers were in touch with Israeli journalists covering the Arab world, gave them translated articles from Arab papers (which were planted by the IDF) and pressed the Israeli reporters to publish the same news here”

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-reviving-psychological-warfare-unit-1.148155

MEMRI was founded by former Israeli military intelligence officer and former head of Israel’s civil administration in the West Bank (and illegal settler) Yigal Carmon, along with Meyrav Wurmser - a rightwing neo-con extremist and warmonger who is now at the Hudson Institute.

Wurmser was one of the co-writers of "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," a policy recommendation prepared for then-and-again prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu in 1996. This paper advised him on how to break the Oslo peace process, recommended that he invade Iraq, and advocated endless military confrontations with various Palestinian/Arab/Muslim nations.

Working with fellow pro-Likud neocons Douglas Feith, Richard Perle and Elliott Abrams, Wurmser used this document as the blueprint for the "Project for the New American Century (PNAC,)" which advocated that the U.S. be the one to take the actions advocated in "A Clean Break."

BTW Wurmser is married to fellow neo-con warmonger David Wurmser, who was also part of the Clean Break group, and who was part of ####### Cheney's "Office of Special Planning" inside the Pentagon under Douglas Feith, which is the group that cooked the books on U.S. intelligence to push for the Iraq War when the CIA said there were no grounds for it.)

As for PMW - it's another propaganda unit, with even less credibility than MEMRI. Again, I will just quote one of my earlier posts on that:

Just in case anyone didn't know -

Palestinian Media Watch (PMW) was founded by Itamar Marcus. Marcus is an extremist right-wing settler who lives in Efrat (Israel's illegal colony between Bethlehem and Hebron.)

PMW is funded by the Michael Cherney Foundation. Cherney is an Uzbekistan-born Israeli who is wanted by Interpol for money laundering and international crime.

Cherney is closely associated with far right-wing Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, who is also the founder and leader of Yisrael Beiteinu, a hard-line right-wing political party which is often called Israel's Soviet party. Lieberman has supported the unilateral annexation of the majority of the illegal settlement blocs, and the stripping of Palestinian Israelis of their citizenship, instead transferring all Arab areas to a Palestinian "autonomous" area.

But wait, there's much more...

Marcus is a member of the same Marcus family that owns a fabric store on Sixth Avenue in New York City, which is a mail drop for the Central Fund of Israel. The CFI is an operation that collects tax-deductible American donations and funnels the money to some of the most extremist settler groups in the West Bank - including a lot of weapons and paramilitary equipment. The recipients include the West Bank yeshiva that is home to Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira. Shapira made headlines in 2009 when he published a book justifying the killing of gentile babies on the grounds that they might grow up to pose a threat to the Jewish State.

This should be considered "funding terror."

So please seek credible sources and reliable information.

Gotta step out now... will be back to talk about school textbooks, indoctrination of children, civilian casualties, Col. Kemp, and much much more

Edited December 11, 2012 by wife_of_mahmoud

[OriZ 3,157]

What does it say about attacking and imprisoning the occupied's civilian population?

Pay attention. That part of the conversation is already over.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Pay attention. That part of the conversation is already over.

That is your problem right there.

[OriZ 3,157]

OMG the MEMRI fraud mouse clip is back ! I have covered this several times already on this board.

MEMRI is a Zionist/IDF propaganda machine, disseminating distorted dis-info, mistranslations and out-of-context clips to promote Islamophobic hysteria and extreme right-wing Likudnik agendas.

According to Haaretz, the IDF plants fabricated stories in the Arab media, which MEMRI then translates and distributes.

MEMRI was founded by former Israeli military intelligence officer and former head of Israel’s civil administration in the West Bank (and illegal settler) Yigal Carmon, along with Meyrav Wurmser - a rightwing neo-con extremist and warmonger who is now at the Hudson Institute.

Wurmser was one of the co-writers of "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," a policy recommendation prepared for then-and-again prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu in 1996. This paper advised him on how to break the Oslo peace process, recommended that he invade Iraq, and advocated endless military confrontations with various Palestinian/Arab/Muslim nations.

Working with fellow pro-Likud neocons Douglas Feith, Richard Perle and Elliott Abrams, Wurmser used this document as the blueprint for the "Project for the New American Century (PNAC,)" which advocated that the U.S. be the one to take the actions advocated in "A Clean Break."

BTW Wurmser is married to fellow neo-con warmonger David Wurmser, who was also part of the Clean Break group, and who was part of ####### Cheney's "Office of Special Planning" inside the Pentagon under Douglas Feith, which is the group that cooked the books on U.S. intelligence to push for the Iraq War when the CIA said there were no grounds for it.)

As for PMW - it's another propaganda unit, with even less credibility than MEMRI. Again, I will just quote one of my earlier posts on that:

So please seek credible sources and reliable information.

Gotta step out now... will be back to talk about school textbooks, indoctrination of children, civilian casualties, Col. Kemp, and much much more

Irrelevant. There have been many many cases of indoctrination, this video just happens to be one out of many I happened to pick out of youtube the other day. I could have picked plenty of others.

At certain moments, while watching a scene from a program broadcast by Palestinian television on October 25 of last year, it is difficult to believe that this is the official television channel of the Palestinian Authority and the PLO, and not that of Hamas or the Islamic Jihad.

And yet, the program in question features a "field report" by Palestinian television from Tulkarem, in order to relate the wonders of the master terrorist Abbas a-Said, who is jailed in Israel and was sentenced to 35 life sentences.

This is a man who was considered at the beginning of the previous decade the head of the military wing of Hamas in the town, and responsible for two of the harshest suicide bombings Israel has ever known, including the attack on the Park Hotel in Netanya and on the night of the Passover Seder in 2002.

The reporter, who works at a program dedicated to the families of prisoners, did not spare the superlatives: "We are outside the home of the warrior hero, the commander, the lion of the prison, Abbas a-Said."

And the play continues. The reporter turns to two freed women prisoners sitting in the house of a-Said and asks them: "How do you feel now that you are sitting in the house of the leader, the hero, the defeater of the enemy, the vanquisher of the prison and the lion of the investigation?"

One of them, Dia al-Jiosi, responds that a-Said was a role model "for us." Later the reporter goes out to interview the neighbors of the "hero." One of them explains that a-Said is "the crown on our head that brought the redemption to the nation, without a doubt he made us proud," said the neighbor.

Apparently, this example is not atypical on official Palestinian TV, even in the age of PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas' rule. Nan Jacques Zilberdik, an analyst at Palestinian Media Watch, explains that on Palestinian TV "there is no message of peace with Israel."

Zilberdik, who was born in Denmark, recently published, together with PMW Director Itamar Marcus a book called Deception, which monitors Palestinian media from one year beginning May 2010, with an emphasis on television broadcasts. The book's findings, in some cases, trigger concern, in most others nausea.

Palestinian Media Watch, it should be noted, was recently mentioned as a right-leaning group which supplies the Prime Minister's Office information on Palestinian media. However, a closer look at both the book's findings and the broadcasts themselves reveals that, regardless of political inclination, the heads of Palestinian television are far from reaching out with a message of peace.

"There's no education toward peace," said Zilberdik in a conversation with Haaretz.

"The new Palestinian generation, who watches Palestinian television, does not hear that Tel Aviv or Ashkelon are Israeli cities. It hears about occupied cities that must be liberated. There is no discourse on compromise or concessions. In the Israeli media, on the other hand, one does see such discourse."

Zilberdik said that the criteria according to which the Palestinian television programs were examined were those that the Palestinian Authority agreed to in the past: An end to violence, recognition of Israel, and acceptance of signed agreements.

"For example, we found in the Palestinian Authority's Zayzafuna magazine, a story about a young girl who meets four characters – the fourth is Adolf Hitler. He explains to her what is the killing of Jews and what needs to be done, but there isn't even a comment on behalf of the editorial staff on who is Hitler and what he is responsible for.

Zilberdik agreed that the content of the Palestinian television programs did change from the even darker days of the beginning of last decade, when there was overt incitement and calls for suicide attacks and violence.

"Today there is no incitement to killing Jews, but they do praise those who carry out terror attacks," she said.

The recurring example is the female terrorist Dalal Mughrabi, who turned into a symbol in the Palestinian media, for reasons that aren't clear. Mughrabi, who murdered 37 Israelis in a 1978 attack that became known as the Coastal Road Massacre, is mentioned time and again in Palestinian television as a hero.

For example, Palestinian television marked the birthday of Yasser Arafat on August 4, 2010, and broadcast several songs that praised Mughrabi. About a month afterward, in an official Fatah event broadcast on Palestinian television, band by the name of Al-Ashkin (“The Oppressed” in Arabic) appeared singing songs praising the way in which the Palestinians “attacked the Zionists with weapons.” The band sang “finger on the trigger” loudly.

The person responsible on for Palestinian television and radio broadcasts is Yasser Abed Rabo, one of the most well known members of the Palestinian “peace camp.” Abed Rabo stands behind the Geneva Initiative, and was chastised many times by Palestinians due to his willingness to make exaggerated concessions. And maybe from this point it is difficult to explain this phenomenon and that which takes place on Palestinian television. In fact, it is the PLO station, which is ostensibly supposed to support the idea of “two states,” that continuously praises terrorists that killed Israelis. Another problem that arises from the viewing of the broadcasts is the utter disregard for the existence of the State of Israel. Time after time, and especially on shows targeted at teenagers, the hosts, singers or guests say that cities such as Acre, Haifa, Lod, Ramle and even Tel Aviv are part of occupied Palestine. For instance, on August 25, 2010, the host of a children’s television show says that Lod, Haifa and Acre are occupied cities. In June of the same year, another host whom is speaking with the son of a prisoner asks him “the Jews are our enemies, right?” Suffice it to say that she refers to Israeli soldiers with much harsher words – “animals.” And in October 2010, the station takes pains to interview several Jordanian experts on the Middle East who explain that “the Jews are hated everywhere they have been due to their love of money.”

Zilberdik claims that the incitement in the Palestinian media is not revealed in the Israeli media, and certainly not in the international media. “The international community is not aware of the glorification of terrorists or Holocaust denial in the Palestinian media. It is easier to check whether there is building in the settlements than it is to track incitement on the side of the Palestinians. I do not identify with the right-wing in terms of politics. When I arrived in Israel from Denmark I voted for Meretz. But it is impossible to ignore what is happening in the Palestinian media. There is no education toward peace or even a discussion of such issues. The only thing that is heard is that they “will not give up.” That is all.”

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-television-still-glorifies-terror-attacks-against-israel-1.413485

Are you also gonna say the Hamas and Jihad summer camps don't exist?

http://www.examiner.com/article/hamas-children-s-summer-camps-teach-palestinian-kids-terror-tactics

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/un-textbooks-palestinian-children-explosively-anti-semitic-anti-american-and-anti

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textbooks_in_the_Palestinian_territories

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-textbook-debate-reaches-u-s-republican-campaign-1.402065

Those can't all be illegitimate sources can they?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Picking up where I left off...

Even though I think some of those kids need to grow a brain which I'm sure they will at some point in their life, I still don't see the comparison. They're not dressed like martyrs. They don't go to a summer camp where all they do is learn how to shoot weapons and fight the evil enemy. They don't watch shows like Mickey Mouse that are used to incite them against anyone. They don't learn in their textbooks that Israel is from the Jordan river to the sea - they do actually acknowledge occupation - whereas Palestinian textbooks treat all of the land, including Haifa, Tel Aviv etc as Palestinian land. So the level of indoctrination is not comparable in my view.

I'm sorry but Israel has nothing like that, that I know of anyway.

Look again at this clip:

The Israeli children are climbing on tanks, wearing Israeli army helmets and playing with guns. They are imitating what they see as admirable in their society, and the adults encourage this behavior. How is this so different from children in Gaza dressing up like the guys they see as protecting them ?

And listen to what the Israeli children are saying:

“What did you imagine?” “That I was killing people.”

“They’re from Syria and they’re wearing khaki uniforms.”

“What?” “Arabs.”

“I picture a dead Arab and that makes me happy.”

“Arabs chasing me, they want to kill me”

“You’re in the tank, shooting. Do you kill them all?” (Child nods yes) “How did it feel?” “I felt happy.”

“Where do you want to do your army service?” “My first choice would be Lebanon.” “But we gave back Lebanon. We aren’t fighting in Lebanon.” “That’s okay, we’ll be back.” “Do you hope that by the time you’re a soldier we’ll be at war with Lebanon again?” “Yes.”

“How many people do you think you’ll kill?” “85.”

Now read it again, and swap out "Arab" for "Jew," etc. - and you have something MEMRI would pay solid gold for - it would be emailed all around the world and picked up by news blogs and posted repeatedly on message boards like this one.

The point is not that Israeli children are devils or psychopaths who are so different from other human beings - the point is that all children living in a war zone or exposed to daily violence from an "enemy" become indoctrinated with these types of ideas. To demonize Palestinian children for similar reactions - and when they have been exposed to much greater and much more horrific scenes of violence, death and terror - is being hypocritical and also denying the reality in Israeli society.

Please do.

Dispatches: Children of Gaza

This is the first part of a documentary made a year and a half after Cast Lead by director Jezza Neumann for Britain's Channel 4. I hope you find time to watch at least part of it.

Will be back to talk about Lebanon, etc. in my next post....

[OriZ 3,157]

Picking up where I left off...

Look again at this clip:

The Israeli children are climbing on tanks, wearing Israeli army helmets and playing with guns. They are imitating what they see as admirable in their society, and the adults encourage this behavior. How is this so different from children in Gaza dressing up like the guys they see as protecting them ?

And listen to what the Israeli children are saying:

“What did you imagine?” “That I was killing people.”

“They’re from Syria and they’re wearing khaki uniforms.”

“What?” “Arabs.”

“I picture a dead Arab and that makes me happy.”

“Arabs chasing me, they want to kill me”

“You’re in the tank, shooting. Do you kill them all?” (Child nods yes) “How did it feel?” “I felt happy.”

“Where do you want to do your army service?” “My first choice would be Lebanon.” “But we gave back Lebanon. We aren’t fighting in Lebanon.” “That’s okay, we’ll be back.” “Do you hope that by the time you’re a soldier we’ll be at war with Lebanon again?” “Yes.”

“How many people do you think you’ll kill?” “85.”

Now read it again, and swap out "Arab" for "Jew," etc. - and you have something MEMRI would pay solid gold for - it would be emailed all around the world and picked up by news blogs and posted repeatedly on message boards like this one.

The point is not that Israeli children are devils or psychopaths who are so different from other human beings - the point is that all children living in a war zone or exposed to daily violence from an "enemy" become indoctrinated with these types of ideas. To demonize Palestinian children for similar reactions - and when they have been exposed to much greater and much more horrific scenes of violence, death and terror - is being hypocritical and also denying the reality in Israeli society.

Dispatches: Children of Gaza

This is the first part of a documentary made a year and a half after Cast Lead by director Jezza Neumann for Britain's Channel 4. I hope you find time to watch at least part of it.

Will be back to talk about Lebanon, etc. in my next post....

I'll definitely try to find the time.

My point was definitely not against the kids I'm sorry if that was misunderstood...kids are innocent they only know what you tell them...I would never demonize kids...I was speaking against the adults, not the kids, whether members of Hamas or simply sympathizers with them who want to put their kids through that. Teaching your kids that is evil, doesn't matter where it's done.

Here's something else you don't tend to see in Israel. One from today and one from 6 months ago:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4319035,00.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4241588,00.html