Jesus speaks. Are you listening?

[decocker 7,198]

No such person as who ? Are you saying that Christianity is a myth ?

why is that so shocking, how many religions have you discredited in your own mind thus far in life?

[^_^ 5,021]

why is that so shocking, how many religions have you discredited in your own mind thus far in life?

Now he is going to report you for being insulting to people of faith and the RWNs in the mod team will suspend you.

[rlogan 2,036]

The historian Josephus does refer to such accounts later in the first century, but yes, little if any physical evidence that such a person actually lived has been found over the centuries.

No, he didn't. In the 4th century the bishop Eusebius, at the behest of Emperor Constantine, forged a ridiculous passage into Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews. That was necessary in order to use the police power of the Roman State to impose a religious tyranny over the people as a means of controlling the population. Different factions had very different beliefs about the nature of Christ, (God, Spirit, Man) and this was resolved at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE with Constantine presiding and Bishop Eusebius serving as his right hand man. They couldn't agree so they made him all three, which is called the Trinity or the Nicene Creed. The Church at Rome was using the forged history to lay claim to linear descent from Jesus to Peter to the first four nonexistent Popes.

There is a long history of forgery in Christianity, the most obscene of which is probably the "Donation of Constantine". The ones most interesting to me are the co-option of Marcion's forged letters of Paul by the protocatholics in Rome. They could not defeat the Marcionites, so they co-opted their literature (letters of the legendary Paul) and edited them sufficient to their own ends.

There are no contemporary references. You'd be able to name them if there were. In Josephus' works there are on the order of 26 persons named Jesus, including the son of a high priest, a leader of rebels who fought the Romans, and my favorite who was a bit of a loon that was indeed tortured by Pilate. He died in the Battle of Jerusalem, hit by a boulder thrown my a Roman Seige engine saying "Woe is Israel". But nobody even remotely resembling the Biblical Jesus.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

[quote name=' timestamp='1356332377' post='5886840]

Now he is going to report you for being insulting to people of faith and the RWNs in the mod team will suspend you.

Your biggest mistake in conjuncture would be that I am a person of driven faith. What I am is a person of liberty and fairness. My problem is and was, that not just on this board but across America, it is perfectly ok to drive down the Relgion of a majority of our fellow countrymen, but one dare not suggest that there is a direct link between many or some of the Islamic faith and Violence., less we offend someone. I have never found the truth that can be supported by fact to be offensive. There are many truths about my hertiage as a Southern White Male, that I found very uncomfortable and embarrassing.

A prime example would be the racism and segregation that occurred among whites in the South. However it would be ludicrous to say that it enjoyed support among only an isolated few.

[TiklingGuy 211]

http://www.ucg.org/science/10-ways-darwin-got-it-wrong/

[rlogan 2,036]

What is it with this page where people post links but are incapable of mustering a coherent sentence about what they are linking to?

Christ almighty that link just cited begins with the stupidest strawman argument creationists have, but always use: Origin of Species does not discuss the origin of life itself. The origin of life (abiogenesis) has nothing to do with Darwin's theory of evolution. The rest of the arguments are nearly equally lame.

What "life" means is not so simple a matter when we compare, say, a virus to an animal cell. Prior to vertical replication we have lateral genetic transfer going on, which is fundamentally different from Darwin's evolution - and begins at the universal common ancestor.

Probably the most dangerous thing about creationism is the inculcation of logical fallacies, which impair the ability to think logically.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Probably the most dangerous thing about creationism is the inculcation of logical fallacies, which impair the ability to think logically.

On the other hand, a world without magic sucks.

[rade2rising 205]

No, he didn't. In the 4th century the bishop Eusebius, at the behest of Emperor Constantine, forged a ridiculous passage into Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews. That was necessary in order to use the police power of the Roman State to impose a religious tyranny over the people as a means of controlling the population. Different factions had very different beliefs about the nature of Christ, (God, Spirit, Man) and this was resolved at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE with Constantine presiding and Bishop Eusebius serving as his right hand man. They couldn't agree so they made him all three, which is called the Trinity or the Nicene Creed. The Church at Rome was using the forged history to lay claim to linear descent from Jesus to Peter to the first four nonexistent Popes.

There is a long history of forgery in Christianity, the most obscene of which is probably the "Donation of Constantine". The ones most interesting to me are the co-option of Marcion's forged letters of Paul by the protocatholics in Rome. They could not defeat the Marcionites, so they co-opted their literature (letters of the legendary Paul) and edited them sufficient to their own ends.

There are no contemporary references. You'd be able to name them if there were. In Josephus' works there are on the order of 26 persons named Jesus, including the son of a high priest, a leader of rebels who fought the Romans, and my favorite who was a bit of a loon that was indeed tortured by Pilate. He died in the Battle of Jerusalem, hit by a boulder thrown my a Roman Seige engine saying "Woe is Israel". But nobody even remotely resembling the Biblical Jesus.

right on dude. we covered this in college.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

right on dude. we covered this in college.

And you believed it?

[rade2rising 205]

dude its written history just the way ppl believe in the written bible. everyone gets to choose how to waste their mind.

[rlogan 2,036]

right on dude. we covered this in college.

The real history is far more fascinating and satisfying than the myth. One of the puzzles it solves is the numerous contradictions and just plain weirdness in the bible. Christians don't even study their own bible in a rigorously academic way. It's pretty obvious that the Jesus of the Gospels is very different from the Christ in the Pauline epistles. So when these two competing sects were merged, the book of Acts was necessary to write in order to have Paul meet the Disciples, and make him subservient to them. That put the Church of Rome on top. It is very interesting that Marcion went to Rome and paid a huge bribe to the Church authorities there that they originally accepted but ultimately returned.

My personal quest was trying to uncover the original Christians and that seems to be best captured in the correspondence between Pliny the Younger and Emperor Trajan in 112 CE. There is quite a bit to admire in them for their rejection of authority and simple morality. But there is no Jesus in their religion at this time. I thought there would be a historical figure of some kind behind the myth, but to my surprise that turned out not to be true.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Your biggest mistake in conjuncture would be that I am a person of driven faith. What I am is a person of liberty and fairness. My problem is and was, that not just on this board but across America, it is perfectly ok to drive down the Relgion of a majority of our fellow countrymen, but one dare not suggest that there is a direct link between many or some of the Islamic faith and Violence., less we offend someone. I have never found the truth that can be supported by fact to be offensive. There are many truths about my hertiage as a Southern White Male, that I found very uncomfortable and embarrassing.

A prime example would be the racism and segregation that occurred among whites in the South. However it would be ludicrous to say that it enjoyed support among only an isolated few.

This is because Islam deals with a lot of predujice associated it. And there isn't a direct link between the two, I can show you very many Muslims who don't believe in the radical ideals that a few follow through. But like I said before, it would depend on the country you are living in. And whenever there is a killing and the persons are Middle Eastern, Islam is automatically thrown into the mix. There have been many mass killings by Americans and foreigners alike, but religion in never brought into question unless it's Islam. Hell Rick Santorum ran his platform on fighting Islam, he said so in his consession speech. There is an inbred fear of it, there are members on here that truly believe if you follow Islam, I can't repeat what we were called on here. And it's sad.

Look at the Catholic scandal with boys that has followed them for decades, you've have all these shootings by young/middle age men, but no one ask what's their faith.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

This is because Islam deals with a lot of predujice associated it. And there isn't a direct link between the two, I can show you very many Muslims who don't believe in the radical ideals that a few follow through. But like I said before, it would depend on the country you are living in. And whenever there is a killing and the persons are Middle Eastern, Islam is automatically thrown into the mix. There have been many mass killings by Americans and foreigners alike, but religion in never brought into question unless it's Islam. Hell Rick Santorum ran his platform on fighting Islam, he said so in his consession speech. There is an inbred fear of it, there are members on here that truly believe if you follow Islam, I can't repeat what we were called on here. And it's sad.

Look at the Catholic scandal with boys that has followed them for decades, you've have all these shootings by young/middle age men, but no one ask what's their faith.

I am with you on the Catholic church thing. They got by with a cover up that went straight to the top in my opinion.

My thing with Islam is this, Usually when there is an Incident like 9-11, the Cole etc, the people doing it make it widly known they are doing in the name of Islam or in some varied support there of. Usually when some American, like the School Shooting, does something it is a random act by an individual that has no ties to any world wide religious networks.

Are there good decent Muslims who want world peace and love. Of course. I think you are one of them. However there is a sizable portion of people that follow Islam who support Terror. What percent I do not know, but it is more than just an isolated handful as many of you assert.. I am deeply sorry if that fact makes you uncomfortable , but a fact it is. It is a fact my ancestors held people in bondage and denied them their rights for many years after that. I wish I could change that but can't.

Look at all the Islamic countries that treat women like cattle, and deny them equal rights. Surely you will not argue that point.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

The real history is far more fascinating and satisfying than the myth. One of the puzzles it solves is the numerous contradictions and just plain weirdness in the bible. Christians don't even study their own bible in a rigorously academic way. It's pretty obvious that the Jesus of the Gospels is very different from the Christ in the Pauline epistles. So when these two competing sects were merged, the book of Acts was necessary to write in order to have Paul meet the Disciples, and make him subservient to them. That put the Church of Rome on top. It is very interesting that Marcion went to Rome and paid a huge bribe to the Church authorities there that they originally accepted but ultimately returned.

My personal quest was trying to uncover the original Christians and that seems to be best captured in the correspondence between Pliny the Younger and Emperor Trajan in 112 CE. There is quite a bit to admire in them for their rejection of authority and simple morality. But there is no Jesus in their religion at this time. I thought there would be a historical figure of some kind behind the myth, but to my surprise that turned out not to be true.

Epistle concerning the Christian Religion

Main article: Pliny the Younger on Christians

In his correspondence with the emperor Trajan (Epistulae X.96; see Epistulae (Pliny)) he reported on his actions against the followers of Christ. He asks the Emperor for instructions dealing with Christians and explained that he forced Christians to curse Christ under painful torturous inquisition:

They were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of a meal--but ordinary and innocent food.[15]

Pliny then explains to the Emperor how he questioned suspected Christians by torture and eventually sentenced them to death.[16][17] In light of the fact that Christianity was recognized as a sect of Judaism and as a threat to public order, it is therefore likely that, while his knowledge of Christianity itself had to be second-hand, several Christian authors assert he must have been aware of a claimed Messiah or a "Christ," although he could not have been contemporary in time or place, and does not mention "Jesus."[18][19][20] Pliny wrote that non-Roman suspects should be executed for their confession of being Christians:

Even this practice, however, they had abandoned after the publication of my edict, by which, according to your orders, I had forbidden political associations. I therefore judged it so much more the necessary to extract the real truth, with the assistance of torture, from two female slaves, who were styled deaconesses: but I could discover nothing more than depraved and excessive superstition.[16][17][18]

In the meanwhile, the method I have observed towards those who have denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were Christians; if they confessed it I repeated the question twice again, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed. For whatever the nature of their creed might be, I could at least feel not doubt that contumacy and inflexible obstinacy deserved chastisement. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.[15][16][17][18]

This indicates that a Messiah was worshiped, and that believers of Christ may be put to death for their beliefs, in a short period of the early second century by Roman jurisdiction. Pliny executed members of what were considered at the time a fanatical cult. This could lend circumstantial significance to the writings of early Christians. Being required to “curse Christ” is evidence that Pliny reported this as a means to force reactions of the suspect Christians under torturous inquisition. Further, "a hymn to Christ as to a god" alleges that during that time, a Messiah had been accepted by some as both God and man.[18][19][20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger

[decocker 7,198]

I am deeply sorry if that fact makes you uncomfortable , but a fact it is.

depends upon how you define terror. obama is a christian (though i guess there are still some who don't believe that) and he has unleashed terror on many people since taking office. of course he doesn't say he's carrying out these attacks in the name of christianity, he claims we have to do this in the name of freedom. in your mind there is a sizable portion of muslim terrorists; in my mind there is a sizable portion of muslim AND christian terrorists.

"TBIJ reports that from June 2004 through mid-September 2012, available data indicate that drone strikes killed 2,562 - 3,325 people in Pakistan, of whom 474 - 881 were civilians, including 176 children. TBIJ reports that these strikes also injured an additional 1,228 - 1,362 individuals," according to the Stanford/NYU study.

drones

if a muslim had killed americans via drones on this scale in the u.s. and claimed to have done this in the name of 'freedom' - you'd call them a terrorist.

Edited December 26, 2012 by val erie