US visas for US citizens?

[CC90 90]

Maybe, maybe not - there are some qualifiers. Biological children of USC can put in a claim for citizenship but they must meet the following:

A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.) The U.S. citizen parent must be genetically related to the child to transmit U.S. citizenship.

A decision is then made by the consulate - for many people, this is cut and dry. But, for a few it isn't as simple as "Because my father is a USC...".

You're absolutely right, but that wasn't my point. If the child is indeed a US citizen (and in this case she was), the child's effective date of citizenship acquisition is birth--not the time a CRBA was issued by the consulate. Assuming the child meets the lineage requirements, that child is already a US citizen when born. The consulate simply confirms it by issuing a CRBA; they do not GRANT citizenship since the child IS already a US citizen. If the child does not meet the lineage requirements, the consulate refuses to issue a CRBA since the child is not a US citizen according to US law. The consulate can only make findings of fact which will dictate whether those facts fit the test of law. They don't make a decision as to grant citizenship; the law does that. They just decide if the facts are true/false.

[catknit 144]

I completely agree with what you wrote too - but the exemption IS for involuntary citizenship [exactly as you describe]. My point was a mix - in some cases what seems like a slam-dunk with respect to US citizenship [dad is a USC] is not so [so it could be moot in other cases] but more importantly this OP went ahead and took additional actions to claim the citizenship. There is an intent portion to what the family did that dilutes the involuntary status of the daughter's US citizenship. They actively sought out benefits from the US citizenship - I would guess [and just a guess] if they wanted to find an out based on the involuntary exemption, the act of claiming the US citizenship could be a wrench in the works.

[Harsh_77 718]

Your daughter is a natural-born US and Indian citizen. That's a natural thing and as such she is required to use a US passport to enter and to exit the United States and an Indian passport to enter and to exit India.

Once your child becomes an adult, she will have to choose which citizenship to keep. She can't choose before she becomes an adult and you, the parents, cannot choose for her. If she wants to keep the Indian citizenship, she will have to formally renounce the U.S. one at the US consulate in Mumbai. If she does not do that, she will use her Indian citizenship.

Most people in such a situation will give up Indian citizenship and apply for O.C.I. instead, which is comparable to owning a Cadillac while being allowed to ride a Bajak Cheetah in India at any time and without any restrictions, compared to be prohibited to owning a Cadillac, driving a Cadillac, for the . . . um . . . privilege to owning a crappy Indian scooter.

Unfortunately India does not recognise the dual citizenship.... so at any point in the life she cannot be Indian and US Citizen. In the case of OP they applied for Indian Citizenship which means if she wants US citizenship she will have to give up her Indian citizenship.... which they did not do which makes the Indian passport as illegal passport.

[Dual National 0]

Maybe, maybe not - there are some qualifiers. Biological children of USC can put in a claim for citizenship but they must meet the following:

A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.) The U.S. citizen parent must be genetically related to the child to transmit U.S. citizenship.

A decision is then made by the consulate - for many people, this is cut and dry. But, for a few it isn't as simple as "Because my father is a USC...".

I left the US more or less permanently when I was 19, so I guess I'd just barely met this criteria. But the CRBA & first passport for our child was pretty painless (although the application form asked me for the details of every trip I'd ever made outside of the US in my entire life).

[CC90 90]

I completely agree with what you wrote too - but the exemption IS for involuntary citizenship [exactly as you describe]. My point was a mix - in some cases what seems like a slam-dunk with respect to US citizenship [dad is a USC] is not so [so it could be moot in other cases] but more importantly this OP went ahead and took additional actions to claim the citizenship. There is an intent portion to what the family did that dilutes the involuntary status of the daughter's US citizenship. They actively sought out benefits from the US citizenship - I would guess [and just a guess] if they wanted to find an out based on the involuntary exemption, the act of claiming the US citizenship could be a wrench in the works.

I see what you're saying. Yes, you could possibly be right about the involuntary exemption. I don't know much about Indian nationality law, but this exemption might apply until the child is of age to report a decision to India (like some other posters alluded to).

However, from what I know about certain countries (which is more than what I know about India), "involuntary" consistently means nationality by blood and "voluntarily" means naturalization. This means that simply obtaining proof of your US nationality is very separate from acquiring it, which was involuntary. Even the US (for security clearance purposes) makes a distinction between a person's attempt to obtain proof of or register a foreign nationality that they were "born" with, opposed to naturalizing into it.

India could very well be different, and I'm sure there's case law on the issue.

Many other countries that have an issue with dual nationality have similar provisions. I would guess that such a system would exist because a child theoretically wouldn't be able to visit the US until he/she was of age to renounce US nationality. I don't think India would be ignorant to this potential issue, which doesn't even only apply to the US, and thus perhaps require a decision by a certain age--but allow it until then.

[catknit 144]

CC90 - I personally haven't heard of there being anything out there allowing both for a certain time span [similar to one of the first responses to this thread stating a dual-citizenship age-related cut off point: ie, 18 you decide, till then you are "both"?].

The truly sad part is the two of us discussing this is probably on par with what happens at a lot on Indian Missions around the world - lack of consistent information and speculation run rampant as "factual" answers for any NRI, potential tourist to India, or expat trying to get their paperwork straight to live/work/be educated in India. I've tried to navigate the MHA page [Home Affairs located in Delhi] to see if I could find something, anything that could concretely help the OP in his pursuit of making his daughter's travelling a little easier. Immigration [or any official] issues in India are just plain scary - intimidation, abuses, outright graft/bribery. It is something to be avoided if you can.

[CC90 90]

CC90 - I personally haven't heard of there being anything out there allowing both for a certain time span [similar to one of the first responses to this thread stating a dual-citizenship age-related cut off point: ie, 18 you decide, till then you are "both"?].

The truly sad part is the two of us discussing this is probably on par with what happens at a lot on Indian Missions around the world - lack of consistent information and speculation run rampant as "factual" answers for any NRI, potential tourist to India, or expat trying to get their paperwork straight to live/work/be educated in India. I've tried to navigate the MHA page [Home Affairs located in Delhi] to see if I could find something, anything that could concretely help the OP in his pursuit of making his daughter's travelling a little easier. Immigration [or any official] issues in India are just plain scary - intimidation, abuses, outright graft/bribery. It is something to be avoided if you can.

Definitely. That's exactly the issue. If there's anything good about US bureaucracy, it's typically pretty consistent.

I have US and another nationality by birth (European), and that country is absolutely terrible and is pretty close in the ranks with India on this one. Not surprisingly, that country threatens the entire cohesion of the EU based on its rather horrible civil service system (guessed which it is yet?).

In any case, I know that South Korea permits dual nationality (involuntarily acquired, ie birth) until age 18. A decision has to be made before that point as to which nationality the person wants (with some exceptions). Japan, Singapore, Germany, and I'm pretty sure South Africa (to name a few) have similar systems (Germany is age 23). The child obviously can't make a decision on his/her own at the age of a few months, so it makes sense to have such a system.

Edited December 3, 2012 by CC90

[CC90 90]

If you look at the bottom of page 5 of this document (the Indian Citizenship Act), it permits dual nationality until the child obtains "full age", after which 6 months is given to make a choice. I'm not sure what "full age" is in India.

http://mha.nic.in/pdfs/ic_act55.pdf

I'm not sure why this wouldn't apply to the OP.

[catknit 144]

Full age should be 18 [that's the voting age as well as the marriage age for females - strangely, the marriage age for males is 21].

In theory - this should TOTALLY apply. Excellent find! Dual National - this should be your paper ammunition if/when you go see the Vice Counsel.

In theory, you should also be able to become a naturalized Indian citizen and short of Sonia Gandhi and a few token famous people [i believe a Nobel Laureate scientist and a few well respected authors] no one becomes a naturalized Indian. I believe there is an Anglo-Indian Catholic Monk who has tried for something like 30 year to become a citizen and makes the press every now and again for once again being denied even though he has hit every single benchmark for naturalization.

That's why I would think if the family wants to pursue anything at length [not knowing the daughter's age] there is a very, very, very good chance paperwork will be forwarded to MHA in Delhi and it will easily take a year [or longer] for some type of response as to what, exactly, her status is. Even then, I'd be so hesitant to go through the out-going immigration process without having hours to spare before a flight - to exit on a US passport that wasn't used to enter India will be mind blowing to a rank and file immigration officer. Add to that fun, some airports do not allow ticketed passengers into the terminals until a set time before the flight [i think Delhi has a 3 hour rule even for international flights unless you have a connecting domestic flight - then you get 24 hours within the terminal] - so, you must have faith [or enough cash if needed] to get past that immense hurdle.

All that said - I think the 6-month portion of that rule is also key - I wouldn't put that off a day late, if you know what I mean.

[Dual National 0]

Full age should be 18 [that's the voting age as well as the marriage age for females - strangely, the marriage age for males is 21].

In theory - this should TOTALLY apply. Excellent find! Dual National - this should be your paper ammunition if/when you go see the Vice Counsel.

Hi Cat:

There may be a countermanding clause in Indian Law, and the foreign service bureaucrats appear to think that there is. Wikipedia is hardly an infallible source, but it says

"Section 9(1) of the (Indian Citizenship Act of 1955) provides that any citizen of India who by naturalisation or registration acquires the citizenship of another country shall cease to be a citizen of India. Notably, the termination provision differs from the renunciation provision because it applies to "any citizen of India" and is not restricted to adults. Indian children therefore also automatically lose their claim to Indian citizenship if at any time after birth they acquire a citizenship of another country by, for example, naturalisation or registration — even if the acquisition of another citizenship was done as a result of actions by the child's parents."

In other words, ambiguity that will no doubt be exploited by the typical Indian immigration official.

[CC90 90]

Dual National,

That provision doesn't apply because your daughter didn't become a US citizen after she was born. She was a US citizen at birth and therefore you did not acquire her citizenship, simply because she already had it. Getting a CRBA is not the same as getting her citizenship.

In fact, you don't even need a CRBA to get a US passport if you were born overseas. Your proof of citizenship is actually your foreign birth certificate and evidence of a qualifying lineage (eg qualifying parent's passport).

It would be very difficult for India to argue against this, and I believe it's a very common situation, although maybe not to some low level official at an airport.

Your daughter did not acquire US citizenship after she was Indian--simple as that.

Cat is right though; it could cause an issue at every possible point. It's just theory. I had to spend the night right outside Mumbai airport a few years ago for a really trivial issue. That was a lot of fun... And to think if I had kids then!

[Dual National 0]

Hi:

I thought I would update the forum on how things worked out.

After reading the law carefully and considering the input I received here, we decided to stick to our guns and openly declare that my daughter not only had two passports, but that it was entirely lawful for her to retain dual nationality until she was an adult. This stance was in flat contradiction to opinion we had received from the Indian consul in the country where we normally reside. We also thought it better not to approach the Indian foreign service while in India, in light of the inconsistency and ambiguity we've witnessed thus far. We also resolved to allow the airport immigration officials to seize my daughter's passport if they chose, and contest the seizure later based on her rights under Indian law.

Before arriving at the Delhi airport, my wife printed out the Indian Citizenship Act of 1955 and highlighted these two passages:

Section 4 (1A) “A minor who is a citizen of India by virtue of this section and is also a citizen of any other country shall cease to be a citizen of India if he does not renounce the citizenship or nationality of another country within six (6) months of attaining full age.”

This has to mean that dual nationality is permitted until my daughter is an adult (although apparently some officials now interpret this to mean 16 rather 18 years of age).

Section 9 Termination of citizenship.- (1) Any citizen of India who by naturalization, registration (or) otherwise voluntarily acquires, or has at any time between the 26th January, 1950 and the commencement of this Act, voluntarily acquired the citizenship of another country shall, upon such acquisition or, as the case may be, such commencement, cease to be a citizen of India”

The argument we were prepared to make was that US citizenship accrued to my daughter automatically at birth, and was therefore not acquired by "naturalisation, registration or otherwise voluntarily."

When my wife & kids passed through the immigration line, my wife presented both my daughter's US and Indian passports. The woman working the counter immediately informed my wife that dual nationality was illegal and that she must surrender the Indian passport. My wife calmly objected, produced the law, and explained to the official that she was in error. She said, politely, that seizing my daughter's Indian passport without due cause would be illegal, and the official subject to administrative discipline.

The senior official was called, who took both passports and retreated into his office without saying a word. He emerged 15 minutes later and pronounced that "the restriction against dual nationality does not apply to minors." Well, not exactly. But the end result is that my daughter left India today with both passports, head held high, with no one having broken the law or lied to a public official.

Still, it was pretty much the luck of the draw. She could have just as easily come across less cooperative officials who would have seized my daughter's Indian passport without hesitation.

Thanks all of you for your input --- it was invaluable.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Dual National