US visas for US citizens?

[Dual National 0]

Hi:

I am a native US citizen. My wife is an Indian national, without US citizenship. We have been married for nearly 20 years and have never lived in the United States or India. My wife has a US tourist visa (B2, I think). She's never had any trouble obtaining it.

Indian law prohibits dual nationality, while US law does not. My wife doesn't want US citizenship. She wants our children to have Indian nationality.

Our youngest child was born outside the United States. We applied for and obtained an Indian passport for her. Some months later, we applied for and obtained a US passport for her. When she travels to the US, she uses her US passport. When she travels to India, she uses her Indian passport.

This time, however, my wife and daughter plan to travel to the US directly from India. (I am travelling separately). Our child entered India using her Indian passport, with my wife. They have a flight from Delhi to the US. Our concern is that they will be stopped at Indian immigration when they see that our daughter has no US visa on her passport. Indian immigration officials have a well-deserved reputation for corruption, and look for discrepancies like this to extort bribes from vulnerable travellers.

It's ironic that my wife must break Indian law in order to preserve Indian nationality for our child. We're law abiding people generally, but it is important to my wife to retain our daughter's Indian identity. We've been through the ethics of all this at length, and we're comfortable that we are doing the right thing.

My question: if we approach the US embassy in New Delhi, will they issue a US visa for my daughter, or perhaps endorse my wife's passport? Or will they search and find that my daughter has a US passport, and refuse to issue her a visa?

Any suggestions welcome.

[meagan 3]

Ok I'm not a 100% sure on this but I have a good friend that is from the us and has 3 children born in the us.her husband is from India. They moved to india almost 2 years ago. From what I know or what they do is there kids all have us passports and travel on them all the time. When the kids reach a certain age I think 20 or 21 then they will be able to make there choice if they want to be us citizens or full Indian citizens. So the way I see it why can they not fly on there us passport ? And hold a us passport only till the reach the legal age to decide for them selves.on which they want. I understand your wife feels very strong about them wanting a Indian citizenship. but for 1 its illegal you say in India for them to have both? It would make it easier to cut them back to the us one only till they are of age to make there own mind up since u also say they don't even live there full time? Just because they don't have Indian citizenship doesn't mean they won't know there culture and having a us passport would be more beneficial to them. And they can still travel and stay in India with a us passport and there is no time limit for them to come and go with a us passport since they are under age . At least this way you would be legal and have no more worries. As at some point and time it will catch up to you and in sure they will find they have both. If not now then I'm sure later in life the system will catch it

[Boiler 45,663]

Ouch

Our concern is that they will be stopped at Indian immigration when they see that our daughter has no US visa on her passport. Indian immigration officials have a well-deserved reputation for corruption, and look for discrepancies like this to extort bribes from vulnerable travellers.

Not just immigration officials it would seem.

You already have issues with the Indian system and now you are trying to game the US one as well?

I would expect your wife would get her visa revoked and a lifetime ban, not sure what the consequences would be for you.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Boiler

[Noah Lot 391]

Hi:

I am a native US citizen. My wife is an Indian national, without US citizenship. We have been married for nearly 20 years and have never lived in the United States or India. My wife has a US tourist visa (B2, I think). She's never had any trouble obtaining it.

Indian law prohibits dual nationality, while US law does not. My wife doesn't want US citizenship. She wants our children to have Indian nationality.

Our youngest child was born outside the United States. We applied for and obtained an Indian passport for her. Some months later, we applied for and obtained a US passport for her. When she travels to the US, she uses her US passport. When she travels to India, she uses her Indian passport.

This time, however, my wife and daughter plan to travel to the US directly from India. (I am travelling separately). Our child entered India using her Indian passport, with my wife. They have a flight from Delhi to the US. Our concern is that they will be stopped at Indian immigration when they see that our daughter has no US visa on her passport. Indian immigration officials have a well-deserved reputation for corruption, and look for discrepancies like this to extort bribes from vulnerable travellers.

It's ironic that my wife must break Indian law in order to preserve Indian nationality for our child. We're law abiding people generally, but it is important to my wife to retain our daughter's Indian identity. We've been through the ethics of all this at length, and we're comfortable that we are doing the right thing.

My question: if we approach the US embassy in New Delhi, will they issue a US visa for my daughter, or perhaps endorse my wife's passport? Or will they search and find that my daughter has a US passport, and refuse to issue her a visa?

Any suggestions welcome.

It is against the law (our laws) to issue a US visa to a US citizen, no matter what the circumstances. Any VO who did so could lose his/her consular commission and/or job.

[Harsh_77 718]

You have already been violating the law:

Our youngest child was born outside the United States. We applied for and obtained an Indian passport for her. Some months later, we applied for and obtained a US passport for her. When she travels to the US, she uses her US passport. When she travels to India, she uses her Indian passport.

As Indian once your youngest kid was issued the US passport the Indian passport became invalid and you were supposed to surrender your Indian passport to the nearest embassy.

Infact you were using it for the travel – you could had applied for PCO or PIO card for youngest child.

All the travel to India after the issue of US passport using the Indian passport would be illegal.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Harsh_77

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

Your daughter is a natural-born US and Indian citizen. That's a natural thing and as such she is required to use a US passport to enter and to exit the United States and an Indian passport to enter and to exit India.

Once your child becomes an adult, she will have to choose which citizenship to keep. She can't choose before she becomes an adult and you, the parents, cannot choose for her. If she wants to keep the Indian citizenship, she will have to formally renounce the U.S. one at the US consulate in Mumbai. If she does not do that, she will use her Indian citizenship.

Most people in such a situation will give up Indian citizenship and apply for O.C.I. instead, which is comparable to owning a Cadillac while being allowed to ride a Bajak Cheetah in India at any time and without any restrictions, compared to be prohibited to owning a Cadillac, driving a Cadillac, for the . . . um . . . privilege to owning a crappy Indian scooter.

[R and F 34]

Your daughter is a natural-born US and Indian citizen. That's a natural thing and as such she is required to use a US passport to enter and to exit the United States and an Indian passport to enter and to exit India.

Once your child becomes an adult, she will have to choose which citizenship to keep. She can't choose before she becomes an adult and you, the parents, cannot choose for her. If she wants to keep the Indian citizenship, she will have to formally renounce the U.S. one at the US consulate in Mumbai. If she does not do that, she will use her Indian citizenship.

Most people in such a situation will give up Indian citizenship and apply for O.C.I. instead, which is comparable to owning a Cadillac while being allowed to ride a Bajak Cheetah in India at any time and without any restrictions, compared to be prohibited to owning a Cadillac, driving a Cadillac, for the . . . um . . . privilege to owning a crappy Indian scooter.

Indeed

[catknit 144]

You have already been violating the law:

Our youngest child was born outside the United States. We applied for and obtained an Indian passport for her. Some months later, we applied for and obtained a US passport for her. When she travels to the US, she uses her US passport. When she travels to India, she uses her Indian passport.

As Indian once your youngest kid was issued the US passport the Indian passport became invalid and you were supposed to surrender your Indian passport to the nearest embassy.

Infact you were using it for the travel – you could had applied for PCO or PIO card for youngest child.

All the travel to India after the issue of US passport using the Indian passport would be illegal.

Completely spot on - your children may not, by Indian law, be citizens of both nations. Can not be done, simple as that. While exiting India, there will be the need of some sort of Indian Visa to permit the exit in the US passport. As the entry was through the Indian Passport you have created a bit of a catch-22. There is no record of the child entering on a US passport - so even if you did acquire an exit visa there is a huge loose end. The best you can do at this point, if you want your children to continue to be US citizens, is renounce the Indian citizenship and get them OCI cards. If continuing to be Indian citizens is more important - renounce the US citizenship...unfortunately Mother Hindustan doesn't let you have both.

Your daughter is a natural-born US and Indian citizen. That's a natural thing and as such she is required to use a US passport to enter and to exit the United States and an Indian passport to enter and to exit India.

Legally - the children can not be both...

[Noel194 53]

Parents cannot Renounce US Citizenship for minor children. The citizen must be 18 to renounce or if under 18 convince a consular officer that the decision is voluntary and that is hard to do.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Noel194

[Dual National 0]

Thanks to all for your thoughts. We've solved the problem by booking a flight to a third country we'd wanted to visit anyway. When she leaves India she will present her Indian passport with a valid visa.

We have considered trying to obtain an OCI or POI card for her, but they do not seem to be possible for children on their own, and my wife refuses to apply for US citizenship. It hardly makes a difference to me, but my wife is distraught at the idea of either her or our daughter losing Indian nationality. But it is also impossible for us to renounce our daughter's US citizenship. It was a mistake to get her US citizenship in the first place, but at that time we were unaware of all these issues, and did not realise that we had to choose. Neither the US nor the Indian embassy in the country where we live raised any issues at the time.

Indian law theoretically grants an exemption to children who have "involuntarily acquired" foreign nationality, but it is hard to see how the exemption applies in practice.

It is against the law (our laws) to issue a US visa to a US citizen, no matter what the circumstances. Any VO who did so could lose his/her consular commission and/or job.

I'd assumed so, but I failed to find any explicit restriction in the statutes. That doesn't mean it isn't there -- can you refer me to the US law that bans this? My guess is that consular officials have broad discretion in such matters, and it may be possible for my wife to have her visa endorsed for the child. We have no intention of "gaming" the US system, and would only request a visa for her if it is lawful to do so.

As for Indian law, compliance would be preferable, but we cannot see any obvious options. It does not appear that they will issue her an OCI card unless her mother possesses one as well.

[catknit 144]

Dual National - Your local Indian Mission should have absolutely no problem giving your child OCI based on her mother's Indian citizenship. Your wife has no need to renounce her citizenship to do so. Sadly, part of the maddening beauty of the Indian Bureaucracy is this bizarre ability for no one to follow the same rule, the same way. I'd suggest requesting a meeting with the Vice Consul at your local mission when you have no need to return to India for a year's time [MHA Delhi sometimes gets involved and that could lead to enormous amounts of time even if a simple request].

Secondary online resource with people VERY well versed in Indian issues is Indiamike.com. There are many NRIs/OCIs on the board exchanging information about how-to's. NRIs with foreign born kids have been gone down this road before....

The exemption may be hard to prove if you actively went to a US embassy and filed CRBA. That shows it wasn't exactly involuntary.

[catknit 144]

This is from the OCI page of the Birmingham UK Indian Mission:

5.

Can Minor children apply for OCI?

Yes, if either of the parents is eligible for OCI. Minor children of parents where both (father and mother) are Indian nationals would not be eligible for OCI.

6.

In what form should a person apply for an OCI and where are the forms available?

A family consisting of spouses and up to two minor children can apply in the same form (click here to download) which can be filed online by downloading the form from Ministry’s website www.mha.nic.in.

http://www.cgibirmingham.org/index.php?option=com_pages&id=10#2

Having a parent "eligible" for OCI is distinct from having a parent who "is" an OCI. Your wife's citizenship defines your daughter's eligibility. There are many former NRIs whose Indian parents did not need to surrender their citizenship - just think of all of those with parents residing in India. [by the way, reading through ALL of the rules is headache inducing - but not a single rule states the Indian citizen parent must be a resident of India in order to confer OCI eligibility.]

Honestly, Birmingham is probably one of the "better" missions out there with respect to having their act together from what I've read. I'd go ahead and try to escalate the issue at your local mission until someone caves and actually follows the rules.

[Dual National 0]

This is from the OCI page of the Birmingham UK Indian Mission:

5.

Can Minor children apply for OCI?

Yes, if either of the parents is eligible for OCI. Minor children of parents where both (father and mother) are Indian nationals would not be eligible for OCI.

Thanks Cat, your replies are very helpful.

Point five from the Birmingham page you linked flatly contradicts what we were told in our country of residence. The ambiguity in application and interpretation is indeed maddening.

[CC90 90]

The OCI/PIO would be the way to go in this case. From what I know, they allow the holder almost all the rights in India without having Indian nationality.

However, you shouldn't regret getting a CRBA for your daughter. She was a US citizen at birth, not when you reported it to the consulate. Reporting it just gets proof of it. She would have likely been denied a US visa and told to get a US passport if you had tried because she was already a US citizen.

[catknit 144]

However, you shouldn't regret getting a CRBA for your daughter. She was a US citizen at birth, not when you reported it to the consulate. Reporting it just gets proof of it. She would have likely been denied a US visa and told to get a US passport if you had tried because she was already a US citizen.

Maybe, maybe not - there are some qualifiers. Biological children of USC can put in a claim for citizenship but they must meet the following:

A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.) The U.S. citizen parent must be genetically related to the child to transmit U.S. citizenship.

A decision is then made by the consulate - for many people, this is cut and dry. But, for a few it isn't as simple as "Because my father is a USC...".