Which Parts of the Bible Are Negotiable?

[bsd058 296]

this is something i've never understood. you were made in the image of a perfect deity but badger yourself as if you were a mass murderer. do you think god would want his creation to view themselves so poorly?

Adam was made in God's image (Genesis 1-3) and he was considered good. But after the fall all of man's righteousness are like filthy rags to God (Romans 3, Isaiah 64:6) (in other words they aren't good at all), from their childhood they think evil thoughts constantly (Gen 6:5).

Our evil is ingrained in us because we have sinned in Adam (since Adam represented all of humanity). We became rebels by nature, and children of wrath, enemies of God (Colossians 1:21).

Since there are none who do good (as far as God is concerned) and none who are righteous, the only good that exists within me is because of God's grace.

but you don't want to be with him now...not yet.... you would rather post on the internet than sit on god's right hand today

It's a fear driven religion...and I don't react well to intimidation - not by someone who makes married virgins pregnant without asking them first

What's to say I'm not with Him already?

Ephesians 2:6 states that believers have been raised with Christ already (spiritually), and are seated with him in heaven.

Also, you don't respond to intimidation yet. It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Hebrews 10:31). God has the right to do whatever he wants. We're His creation. Why would we ever have a say in the matter? Who are we to judge Him? (Romans 9:20)

Also, don't you think an omnipotent God could make Mary willing to bear Christ?

Edited November 28, 2012 by bsd058

[decocker 7,198]

There are a lot more twists to religion to keep it from ever getting boring, if you are a student, not just a believer.

i left belief and faith behind with my childhood. i've always been interested in theology, actually all my constant questions and interest as a child is what ultimately drove me away. my mom says that my questions started the first time she took me to church, when i was around seven. the first sunday school class was about noah and i couldn't understand why no one was upset about all the people god drowned. like, in tears, upset. guess i was a bleeding heart even then.

belief and faith are a fascinating phenomenon. i'm reading "exclusion & embrace: a theological exploration of identity, otherness, and reconciliation" right now, you know - for fun.

[Love's JAA 100]

Of course there are still miracles today. How do you think they keep making new saints? They gotta have two confirmed miracles under their belts.

[decocker 7,198]

Adam was made in God's image (Genesis 1-3) and he was considered good. But after the fall all of man's righteousness are like filthy rags to God (Romans 3, Isaiah 64:6) (in other words they aren't good at all), from their childhood they think evil thoughts constantly (Gen 6:5).

Our evil is ingrained in us because we have sinned in Adam (since Adam represented all of humanity). We became rebels by nature, and children of wrath, enemies of God (Colossians 1:21).

Since there are none who do good (as far as God is concerned) and none who are righteous, the only good that exists within me is because of God's grace.

i know the reasons the church gives, believe me. what i don't understand is why an omniscient creator would eternally love and offer salvation to his creation who he has cast upon earth, ingrained with evil, sinful in nature by birth(in other words through no fault of their own) all because of a little technicality like 'the fall'. seems pretty petty for a god.

[bsd058 296]

over the years my parent's stance has gone from literal hell, to the idea that hell is on earth only during life, the torment being separated from god. i wondered if the latter was a growing trend among more progressive christians..

It could be a growing trend.

Though most still believe the torment lasts forever. Based on Matthew 25:41, it appears the torment is eternal and in Revelation 14:11 states the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, which seems to imply a torment that lasts forever.

I think it's more likely that hell lasts forever.

[decocker 7,198]

I think it's more likely that hell lasts forever.

and what would such suffering achieve? or would the punishment serve no purpose other than suffering for the sake of suffering...

[bsd058 296]

i know the reasons the church gives, believe me. what i don't understand is why an omniscient creator would eternally love and offer salvation to his creation who he has cast upon earth, ingrained with evil, sinful in nature by birth(in other words through no fault of their own) all because of a little technicality like 'the fall'. seems pretty petty for a god.

Ya, I don't think God loves everyone. That's an Arminian and Catholic view. For instance, God loved Jacob but hated Esau (Romans 9:13).

In a certain sense he gives love to most of us. for instance, he causes the rain to fall upon the just and the unjust. (Matthew 5:45) So he takes care of us in the sense of meeting our physical needs in many cases. But in the salvific sense, he doesn't. He chooses to save some and not others.

Jacob didn't do anything to be loved by God. God just chose to love him. We all (because of our sins) deserve to die for our rebellion against God. But God by his mercy decided to save some of us. He uses this message to bring people to Himself to worship Him. People who just talk about Him to others like we are talking now to change something inside of them and cause them to believe. I don't know how it works, but he does.

This means though, that God decided to make certain people in order to save them, and vice verse that he made others in order that they bring him glory by condemning them.

Since we're mere vessels of clay in the hands of the Potter (who is God in this analogy), He can do as He pleases and make one person for salvation, and another for destruction. (Romans 9:6-24)

I liken it to a man who loves his wife. He doesn't love everyone ins the sense that he loves his wife. He has a special love for His wife. And no one else gets that love. But that doesn't mean that he isn't omnibenevolent, since he loves others in a different sense than His wife. In the sense that he loves his wife, he hates everyone else. (The marriage vows state "forsaking all others" afterall)

And this doctrine is probably the hardest thing for a man to accept. That he is not in control of his own destiny, and that God doesn't choose based upon our own merit. But he will have mercy on whoever he wants, and he will harden the hearts of those he wants to. (Roman 9: 15)

Edited November 28, 2012 by bsd058

[bsd058 296]

and what would such suffering achieve? or would the punishment serve no purpose other than suffering for the sake of suffering...

I'm not sure what hell accomplishes. Perhaps it will bring glory to God someday. I don't think we're told in the Bible what this will accomplish.

But then, I never claimed to know everything about God. God, being infinitely above me, cannot be fully known except by himself.

I do think their destruction shows God's wrath and justice, though. Perhaps that's what he wants to display for all of eternity. Who knows?

Romans 9:22-23 -> What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—-even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Edited November 28, 2012 by bsd058

[spookyturtle 9,465]

mind if i ask if you believe in a literal hell?

We're living in hell.

[decocker 7,198]

This means though, that God decided to make certain people in order to save them, and vice verse that he made others in order that they bring him glory by condemning them.

you're a calvinist?

[bsd058 296]

i left belief and faith behind with my childhood. i've always been interested in theology, actually all my constant questions and interest as a child is what ultimately drove me away. my mom says that my questions started the first time she took me to church, when i was around seven. the first sunday school class was about noah and i couldn't understand why no one was upset about all the people god drowned. like, in tears, upset. guess i was a bleeding heart even then.

belief and faith are a fascinating phenomenon. i'm reading "exclusion & embrace: a theological exploration of identity, otherness, and reconciliation" right now, you know - for fun.

I actually had the same reaction to the story of Noah when I was young. I was like, "That's not fair!! Why is it okay for God to kill people?"

That sounds like an interesting title. Author?

you're a calvinist?

indeed.

Edited November 28, 2012 by bsd058

[decocker 7,198]

I do think their destruction shows God's wrath and justice, though. Perhaps that's what he wants to display for all of eternity. Who knows?

who would he be showing? the predetermined are already saved and the display is ongoing without audience.

[bsd058 296]

who would he be showing? the predetermined are already saved and the display is ongoing without audience.

Maybe everyone? Who knows? Not sure if the Bible says.

Or maybe He takes pleasure in seeing his justice. God could do it for all three persons of the Trinity for all I know. And he would be perfectly righteous in doing so.

I just trust that he is good by his own nature and he knows more than I do.

The predestined are not already saved. It is a guarantee that they will be saved, though. Calvinists believe that God acts within history his own eternal purpose.

Edited November 28, 2012 by bsd058

[decocker 7,198]

I actually had the same reaction to the story of Noah when I was young. I was like, "That's not fair!! Why is it okay for God to kill people?"

That sounds like an interesting title. Author?

what answer were you given?

miroslav volf

[bsd058 296]

what answer were you given?

miroslav volf

My dad told me at the time that it was because the people on the earth were so evil and they only ever did evil all of the time. At least from what I remember that's what he said. He was a Pentecostal, and was therefore closely connected to Methodist and Wesleyan theology which taught Arminianism.

I realized later that God was good by his very nature and anything he decides to do is just and good. His very character defines what is righteous and righteousness is not above him in any way (otherwise I wouldn't have a God above all else), as though he could be judged by a standard higher than Himself.

But I also recognize that the answer I was given by my dad was simple so I could understand it, since I was probably about 7 or 8 at the time. I wouldn't say I accepted it right away. I started hanging around Calvinists in college and they helped me understand, and a video called Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvinism helped quite a bit, too.

That's when I started to look into it on a deeper level.

I just looked it up on Amazon. That sounds like something I would like to read. And the author has pretty good credentials.

Edited November 28, 2012 by bsd058