Which Parts of the Bible Are Negotiable?

[Captain Oates 911]

Free will is a Greek concept. It belongs to the field of mere philosophy.

Fatalism is it's extreme counter.

Somewhere in between is the Reformed view of God which holds that God is the only one who is truly free to choose what will happen in the world. His creation follow his decrees no matter if they are evil or not. And since God's character is the definition of goodness, everything he does is good. Yet, when we disobey (at his decree) we are still held culpable. The Good News is that God has sent Jesus Christ to declare God's reign in the world, and all who believe (trust in) him will not perish in the judgement to come at the end of the world. Their sins are imputed to Christ. He died for them, and will not lose a single one of them.

The ones who refuse this message or mock it will go to eternal punishment, but the righteous (by Christ's virtue) will enter into glory with Christ.

This is the basic message of the Gospel.

It's based upon Christ revealing himself to multitudes just as God revealed himself to Israel at Mount Sinai in front of everyone. He taught his apostles through the Holy Spirit the importance and corollaries of the death and resurrection. They, and hundreds of others, were eye witnesses to Christ's death, resurrection, and his ascension.

Therefore it stands that God is in control. But he only hears the righteous (those who have Christ's righteousness imputed to them). Imputation just means that God declares us legally righteous on the basis of what Christ did for us. Not that we are better than anyone else. True believers in Christ have just been forgiven of their sins since Christ took their punishment for them.

So just recognize that prayer doesn't change God's mind. It changes the mind of the person praying. Hence we are to pray that God's will be done on the earth as it is in heaven. God commanded it, and somehow it is what he desires. So his servants do it.

God is said to have hardened and softened people's hearts towards him and his message. He is in control of all of men's hearts.

As though man could ever thwart the will of an Almighty God.

Yes but all these constructs are made by men like me. It is the output of their imagination

They didn't find a company handbook from heaven that says 7 years as an angel makes you a senior angle - they made it all up

There are tons of these rules which are not from the bible - its all made up by men

Just men. The pope is just a man.

I think religious belief is no more than cowardice and wanting a big strong pal

.

[bsd058 296]

Yes but all these constructs are made by men like me. It is the output of their imagination

They didn't find a company handbook from heaven that says 7 years as an angel makes you a senior angle - they made it all up

There are tons of these rules which are not from the bible - its all made up by men

Just men. The pope is just a man.

I think religious belief is no more than cowardice and wanting a big strong pal

.

That comes from a naturalistic presuppostion, though. I wouldn't expect you to believe the Bible is Divinely inspired. Only someone who has been converted to the Christian worldview can believe this.

I don't believe in the pope either, though.

The doctrines I believe in must come from the Bible (Sola Scriptura), they are otherwise imaginations.

Edited November 28, 2012 by bsd058

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

When I say miracles, I mean the miraculous gifts. Not salvation, which clearly is a miracle (that man in his depravity could ever pass from spiritual death to life). this is just a semantic technicality.

Can't be a saint, if you can't perform at least two verifiable miracles, either while living, or when intercession is sought directly through prayer:

Beatification prompts closer look at John Paul's miracles

VATICAN CITY — Jesse was just 10 days old in November 2009 when he was diagnosed with Herpes simplex, a virus often lethal to a newborn child. Doctors at Children's National Medical Center in Washington, D.C., told his parents that he had no better than a 50% chance of surviving, and at most a 25% chance of living without severe brain damage.

As the Virginia boy waited for a possible liver transplant, his grandfather started praying to the late Pope John Paul II, who died in 2005 and will be beatified by Pope Benedict XVI on Sunday.

Practically at once, Jesse's vital signs began to improve. He went off dialysis a few days later, and was released the following month with a clean bill of health, after what the specialist in charge called a recovery of unprecedented swiftness.

The hospital's medical staff hailed Jesse as the "miracle baby."

Jesse's story comes from a new book, The Miracle of Karol, whose recent publication in Italy was timed to coincide with the beatification of the potential Polish saint born as Karol Wojtyla.

Author Saverio Gaeta writes that he culled Jesse's case, along with dozens of other possible miracles attributed to the late pope's intercession, from "thousands" of such stories reported around the world since John Paul's death.

A church-certified miracle — typically defined as a "scientifically inexplicable" recovery from a physical ailment following prayers to a deceased Catholic — is generally required for beatification. (That requirement is waived in the cases of martyrs.) Another miracle, occurring after beatification, is required for sainthood.

"A miracle ... is like a kind of postmark from God through which he guarantees the sanctity" of those celebrated by the church for their "heroic virtues," says Cardinal Jose Saraiva Martins, former head of the Vatican's Congregation for the Causes of Saints, in Gaeta's book.

In John Paul's beatification cause, the necessary miracle is believed to have come in the 2005 healing of a French nun, Sister Marie Simon Pierre Normand, who had been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease in 2001. According to a Vatican investigation, she quickly recovered from the disease after two fellow nuns prayed for help to John Paul, who had also suffered from Parkinson's.

Various media outlets reported last spring that medical experts had cast doubt on the French nun's recovery — reports that Gaeta dismisses as the "empty clamor of journalistic polemics."

One thing, at least, is clear from the unverified stories recounted in Gaeta's book: when John Paul is declared "blessed" this Sunday, the celebrations will extend far beyond the confines of St. Peter's Square.

Gaeta's book appears aimed at bolstering the credibility of the miracle officially attributed to John Paul, both by offering details of the nun's case, and by sampling reports of other possible miracles collected by the Rome office of the official advocate for John Paul's beatification.

Gaeta, the editor-in-chief of Famiglia Cristiana, one of Italy's highest-circulation magazines, claims to have had privileged access to the advocate's files of letters, many of them left by pilgrims at John Paul's tomb in the Vatican. With the exception of the nun, Gaeta's book provides only the first names of the persons involved in the cases he cites.

Spokespeople for the Archdiocese of Washington and for the dioceses of Arlington and Richmond, Va., said they knew nothing about the case of baby Jesse. A spokeswoman for Children's National Medical Center declined to comment, citing privacy laws.

Gaeta told a reporter he would not divulge the persons' identities unless the postulator's office obtained their permission first.

Among the other stories recounted in Gaeta's book is of a Pennsylvania schoolboy named Luke, who suffered an apparently disabling neck injury while playing lacrosse in June 2005. A neurologist at a Philadelphia pediatric hospital pronounced the boy in good health three days later, after a friend of his grandmother prayed to John Paul.

A spokeswoman for the Archdiocese of Philadelphia wasn't available for comment or verification of the boy's story.

Gaeta also cites a Catholic man in an unnamed U.S. city, who asked for John Paul's intercession and promptly recovered from cirrhosis of the liver.

Intriguingly, the book also mentions that John Paul's beatification cause involved an official church investigation in New York, held to "take the testimony of an American citizen." Gaeta said the confidential nature of his sources prevented him from specifying the investigation's purpose.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-04-27-Pope_miracles_26_ST_N.htm

Edited November 28, 2012 by The Patriot

[bsd058 296]

Can't be a saint, if you can't perform at least two verifiable miracles, either while living, or when intersession is sought directly through prayer:

You're talking to a Protestant.

Edited November 28, 2012 by bsd058

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

You're talking to a Protestant.

Well, I guess it is tough being a heretic -- no team support in heaven. Anglicans and Methodists do have a few saints of their own.

[bsd058 296]

Well, I guess it is tough being a heretic -- no team support in heaven. Anglicans and Methodists do have a few saints of their own.

Ya, funny that I'm condemned by the pope who acknowledges that Muslims worship the one true God with the Christians. Something's messed up in Rome.

Heaven is always there for me. Even if I go to hell, He is still worthy and righteous.

Edited November 28, 2012 by bsd058

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Ya, funny that I'm condemned by the pope who acknowledges that Muslims worship the one true God with the Christians. Something's messed up in Rome.

Heaven is always there for me.

Religion is too much of a hobby for me to take seriously. From the conversations We have had, God doesn't seem to take it too seriously either.

[Captain Oates 911]

That comes from a naturalistic presuppostion, though. I wouldn't expect you to believe the Bible is Divinely inspired. Only someone who has been converted to the Christian worldview can believe this.

I don't believe in the pope either, though.

The doctrines I believe in must come from the Bible (Sola Scriptura), they are otherwise imaginations.

Sounds like you agree with me as far as all these rules about saints and angels and the various stages of purgatory and stuff are concerned

I quite like jesus because all the stuff he was pushing would have precluded him from the 'tea party' and he would have been overturning the money lending tables at goldman sachs while the republicans were trying to arrest him

evangelical christians are behind the wrong party politically and are being used to protect non-christian policies of intolerance and selfishness and exploitation

jesus's love and kindness and generosity messages are certainty optional to right wing christians

More relaxed christians like the hispanics are voting jesus in the form of liberal social policies

Edited November 28, 2012 by Captain Oates

[bsd058 296]

Religion is too much of a hobby for me to take seriously. From the conversations We have had, God doesn't seem to take it too seriously either.

Depends on what you mean by religion. If by religion you mean sacraments and popes which have so often contradicted themselves, then yes, he doesn't take that very seriously.

If by religion you mean obedience, He actually demands it.

Something to think about on your own, though.

I'm not perfect, as I'm sure you've seen in some of my conversations on here (my ego gets in the way of a lot of the time). But perfection is God's standard for righteousness and entering his presence. This is why my only hope is Jesus Christ.

I'm a very bad person. I see it more and more each day. It's ingrained in me. I depend upon God's mercy and pity, though, so that one day I might be with Him.

Edited November 28, 2012 by bsd058

[decocker 7,198]

Heaven is always there for me. Even if I go to hell, He is still worthy and righteous.

worthy of what?

mind if i ask if you believe in a literal hell?

[Captain Oates 911]

Depends on what you mean by religion. If by religion you mean sacraments and popes which have so often contradicted themselves, then yes, he doesn't take that very seriously.

If by religion you mean obedience, He actually demands it.

Something to think about on your own, though.

I'm not perfect, as I'm sure you've seen in some of my conversations on here (my ego gets in the way of a lot of the time). But perfection is God's standard for righteousness and entering his presence. This is why my only hope is Jesus Christ.

I'm a very bad person. I see it more and more each day. It's ingrained in me. I depend upon God's mercy and pity, though, so that one day I might be with Him.

but you don't want to be with him now...not yet.... you would rather post on the internet than sit on god's right hand today

It's a fear driven religion...and I don't react well to intimidation - not by someone who makes married virgins pregnant without asking them first

[decocker 7,198]

I'm a very bad person. I see it more and more each day. It's ingrained in me.

this is something i've never understood. you were made in the image of a perfect deity but badger yourself as if you were a mass murderer. do you think god would want his creation to view themselves so poorly?

[bsd058 296]

worthy of what?

mind if i ask if you believe in a literal hell?

Worthy of worship and adoration, meaning that he is still right is all that he does. Sorry, I'm using lingo.

I don't know if hell is literal/physical or not. I just know that the Bible describes it as a place of torment.

Assuming that all of the dead will be physically raised with new bodies (including the unrighteous, Revelation 1:7), it's very possible that hell will be physical. Yet, since it was made for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41) who are not physical beings there has to be a spiritual element to it that will cause torment in a sense, too.

So I'm not sure. Whatever hell is, it's said to not be a good place to be.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

this is something i've never understood. you were made in the image of a perfect deity but badger yourself as if you were a mass murderer. do you think god would want his creation to view themselves so poorly?

I like the other side of that argument, "If Man were made in the Image of God, would not Some Part of God also be in Man? How do you separate Creator from Creation?"

There are a lot more twists to religion to keep it from ever getting boring, if you are a student, not just a believer.

[decocker 7,198]

So I'm not sure. Whatever hell is, it's said to not be a good place to be.

over the years my parent's stance has gone from literal hell, to the idea that hell is on earth only during life, the torment being separated from god. i wondered if the latter was a growing trend among more progressive christians..