Which Parts of the Bible Are Negotiable?

[decocker 7,198]

We believe that when Jesus said to Peter: Mtt 16:18-19

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,^*and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.^* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus meant it as clear as day, the creation of His Church, led by Peter and his successors as Pope.

clear as day, pope is found nowhere in that quote.

[bsd058 296]

Good question and thanks staying on topic.

I'm Catholic and we approach the Holy Scripture contextually. We do believe that the Bible is the Word of God (inspired by God), but we still recognize that the authors of the Bible were human beings (not perfect). We don't believe that God dictated to the authors, word for word, of what He wanted them to write. Jesus, the Son of God, didn't author any of the books, while his disciples did.

Then how do we discern what is God's Truth from the author's imperfectly human writings? Well, the Catholic Church relies on tradition, and we believe that Scripture alone (sola scriptura) is not the only source of God's Truth. We believe that when Jesus said to Peter: Mtt 16:18-19

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,^*and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.^* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus meant it as clear as day, the creation of His Church, led by Peter and his successors as Pope.

This comes from the theological presuppositions of Arminianism.

A Calvinist would have a different view of Scripture. That God, by grace and providence, can (and did) use peoples' personalities and contexts to write the inspired Word of God without allowing their sinful natures to influence any part of the writings. This is providence of God in a Calvinist's view: that he has decreed everything that happens to happen in the way that he desires.

But this is opening a can of worms with Arminians since they believe that, philosophically, this makes God culpable of all evil in the world. However, Calvinists believe that God can cause all things without being culpable since he is working towards a greater good, and all things he does are good by definition since they show his character.

This doesn't excuse man's culpability before God either, since Paul stated emphatically in Romans 9, "Who are you, oh man, to answer back to God?" Paul wrote this when he foresaw his opponents bringing up the objection that God cannot hold man culpable if he causes all things.

So Calvinists would hold to the Verbal Plenary Inspiration of Scripture, meaning that they believe every single word to be inspired (as originally written).

Also that passage is not as clear as day since most Protestants would argue that the foundation of the Church is the prophets and apostles, not Peter. "Upon this rock (a boulder)." Most people refer to the rock as the statement made by Peter (a pebble): That Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

This confession has been the foundation of the Church (visible and invisible) for almost 2 millenia now, but Rome (after it went apostate) decided to misuse the text.

Eph 2:19-22 - So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Edited November 27, 2012 by bsd058

[bsd058 296]

Most people refer to the rock as the statement made by Peter (a pebble): That Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

I should say most Protestants, not most people. Most people don't view the Scriptures at all.

[bsd058 296]

In saying all of this, there is another forum where you'll find others of a similar persuasion who could answer according to your own presuppositions on matters of faith.

www.christianforums.com

People debate theology and the validity of the text all of the time on that forum. What you conclude all depends on what your presuppositions are, though, as with almost anything in life.

I figured I would post it. I wasn't sure if you were merely looking for debate or if you were interested in learning more. I figured I would approach this thread in good faith that you were genuinely interested.

Edited November 27, 2012 by bsd058

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Good question and thanks staying on topic.

I'm Catholic and we approach the Holy Scripture contextually.

You and the mouse in your pocket?

Holy Scripture is what ever the Pope when they are sitting in their infallible chair and are wearing their infallible costume say it is. They must sign the proclamation, of course, with their infallible pen in infallible ink.

[Captain Oates 911]

This forum is for discussing politics and religion. I'm asking an honest and simple question - which parts of the Holy Bible are negotiable? For example, why are some parts of the Bible taken as a direct command from God, while other parts are dismissed? If you don't feel comfortable discussing your religious beliefs here, that is your prerogative, but let others discuss it in earnest.

All of it is negotiable to non believers. However, to believers, it depends on the sect: for instance the Mormons think jesus rode a Harley Davidson round Missouri and had a bald eagle tattooed on his buttocks

I guess the Mormons would have to negotiate that with the Primitive Methodists

.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Captain Oates

[scotinmass 588]

Why do some people blindly believe all the miracle stuff in the bible and Jesus raising people from the dead and Him being the son of God etc etc. But if someone today comes forward and claims to be the son of God and can perform miracles they are seen as a blaspheming nut job? Why is it more likely to be true 2000 years ago than it is now?

[Captain Oates 911]

Why do some people blindly believe all the miracle stuff in the bible and Jesus raising people from the dead and Him being the son of God etc etc. But if someone today comes forward and claims to be the son of God and can perform miracles they are seen as a blaspheming nut job? Why is it more likely to be true 2000 years ago than it is now?

because they have been brainwashed from birth and are incapable of critical thought...

and when you beat them with short simple logic - they either say "god moves in mysterious ways'

or "we were born with free will"

Ask why there is a worm that eats the back of children's eyes and I guarantee they will use one of those - but they will Never say 'Do you know, you are right"

Never

[rlogan 2,036]

What part of Peter Rabbit is "negotiable"?

[scotinmass 588]

because they have been brainwashed from birth and are incapable of critical thought...

and when you beat them with short simple logic - they either say "god moves in mysterious ways'

or "we were born with free will"

Ask why there is a worm that eats the back of children's eyes and I guarantee they will use one of those - but they will Never say 'Do you know, you are right"

Never

If we have free will why bother praying?

If sports stars on opposing teams both pray and cross themselves what team will God help?

I could go on all day but God makes me work!

So many questions and no answers that make sense.

[Captain Oates 911]

If we have free will why bother praying?

If sports stars on opposing teams both pray and cross themselves what team will God help?

I could go on all day but God makes me work!

So many questions and no answers that make sense.

How do you mean "god makes me work ?"

Do you mean he makes you go out to do a job, or your life wouldn't function without your belief in god ?

I am a 'default human' in that I believe what I believed when I was 1 minute old - and I believe what you believed when you were 1 minute old.

Before those people started telling us all that stuff

Everything that religious people believe has been told to them by a person

.

[bsd058 296]

Why do some people blindly believe all the miracle stuff in the bible and Jesus raising people from the dead and Him being the son of God etc etc. But if someone today comes forward and claims to be the son of God and can perform miracles they are seen as a blaspheming nut job? Why is it more likely to be true 2000 years ago than it is now?

Some people conclude from the Bible (assuming the same hold to Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura) that miracles are not possible today since these gifts have ceased.

The people who believe this are called cessationists.

Edited November 28, 2012 by bsd058

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Some people conclude from the Bible that miracles are not possible today since these gifts are ceased.

The people who believe this are called cessationists.

Do miracles occur today? Sometimes they do! Some people hold that the age of miracles is over – that it ceased when the Bible was completed. Others take the opposite position and say miracles are available to everyone today if one only has enough faith to believe they will occur. Either extreme serves to place God in a “box” and attempts to define the parameters of His sovereignty. The truth is, God can do what He chooses, when He chooses, for whom He chooses, and for whatever reasons He chooses.

Meanwhile, let us not forget the greatest miracle of all – and this happens every day, all over the world. That miracle is when a sinner accepts Christ and passes from an eternal death sentence to eternal life with Him, because of what He did on Calvary so long ago. If we have experienced this miracle, we should thank God for it. If we have not, we should make it a priority to appropriate it rather than seeking any miracles of a more temporal nature.

http://www.bibleprophecyblog.com/2010/12/do-miracles-still-happen-today.html#

[Captain Oates 911]

The pope says its non-negotiable that he wears sun glasses in the bath

He does that because he doesn't want to look down on the unemployed

[bsd058 296]

If we have free will why bother praying?

If sports stars on opposing teams both pray and cross themselves what team will God help?

I could go on all day but God makes me work!

So many questions and no answers that make sense.

Free will is a Greek concept. It belongs to the field of mere philosophy.

Fatalism is it's extreme counter.

Somewhere in between is the Reformed view of God which holds that God is the only one who is truly free to choose what will happen in the world. His creation follow his decrees no matter if they are evil or not. And since God's character is the definition of goodness, everything he does is good. Yet, when we disobey (at his decree) we are still held culpable. The Good News is that God has sent Jesus Christ to declare God's reign in the world, and all who believe (trust in) him will not perish in the judgement to come at the end of the world. Their sins are imputed to Christ. He died for them, and will not lose a single one of them.

The ones who refuse this message or mock it will go to eternal punishment, but the righteous (by Christ's virtue) will enter into glory with Christ.

This is the basic message of the Gospel.

It's based upon Christ revealing himself to multitudes just as God revealed himself to Israel at Mount Sinai in front of everyone. He taught his apostles through the Holy Spirit the importance and corollaries of the death and resurrection. They, and hundreds of others, were eye witnesses to Christ's death, resurrection, and his ascension.

Therefore it stands that God is in control. But he only hears the righteous (those who have Christ's righteousness imputed to them). Imputation just means that God declares us legally righteous on the basis of what Christ did for us. Not that we are better than anyone else. True believers in Christ have just been forgiven of their sins since Christ took their punishment for them.

So just recognize that prayer doesn't change God's mind. It changes the mind of the person praying. Hence we are to pray that God's will be done on the earth as it is in heaven. God commanded it, and somehow it is what he desires. So his servants do it.

God is said to have hardened and softened people's hearts towards him and his message. He is in control of all of men's hearts.

As though man could ever thwart the will of an Almighty God.

Do miracles occur today? Sometimes they do! Some people hold that the age of miracles is over – that it ceased when the Bible was completed. Others take the opposite position and say miracles are available to everyone today if one only has enough faith to believe they will occur. Either extreme serves to place God in a “box” and attempts to define the parameters of His sovereignty. The truth is, God can do what He chooses, when He chooses, for whom He chooses, and for whatever reasons He chooses.

Meanwhile, let us not forget the greatest miracle of all – and this happens every day, all over the world. That miracle is when a sinner accepts Christ and passes from an eternal death sentence to eternal life with Him, because of what He did on Calvary so long ago. If we have experienced this miracle, we should thank God for it. If we have not, we should make it a priority to appropriate it rather than seeking any miracles of a more temporal nature.

http://www.bibleprop...pen-today.html#

When I say miracles, I mean the miraculous gifts. Not salvation, which clearly is a miracle (that man in his depravity could ever pass from spiritual death to life). this is just a semantic technicality.

Edited November 28, 2012 by bsd058