Jesus was born years earlier than thought, claims Pope

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

No disrespect intended, but why is Mohammad considered a greater prophet than Jesus?

More groupies. Raising the dead, cleansing the lepers, giving sight to the blind, and healing the sick are not impressive as kicking butt on the battlefield.

ETA: The Jews were hoping for a Messiah who would be a warrior king to free them from the Romans, a reincarnation of David. Jesus was a little disappointing on that level.

Edited November 22, 2012 by The Patriot

[bsd058 296]

Muslims debate the hypostatic union with unitarian assumptions, that God cannot be three persons, when personhood has nothing to do with essence. They think Christians are essentially polytheists since we believe in three persons. But Christians only believe in one God. So it's a category error to state that just because there is one God that there cannot be three persons sharing that one Divine essence. A simple way to understand the difference between essence and person is to throw a snowball at someone. The snowball is made up of a bunch of frozen water (essence) but it had no say in whether it was thrown at someone. You don't blame the snowball when you are hit by it. So we all make a distinction between essence and person all of the time.

They also assume that God cannot enter into his creation, as though His mere creation could somehow limit him in that manner. Not a very omnipotent God if he cannot even enter into His own creation.

There is confusion sometimes with this subject. Jesus was pre-existant (existed before his birth) as the Word or Son of God in a direct sense as The Patriot has posted in the Athanasian Creed. He decided to add to himself humanness (the essence of humanity which includes at least a human body and spirit) in order to die on behalf of humanity so that those who would believe in him would be counted as righteous and he would suffer the punishment for their sins. It was all for our (believers) sake since we are all sinners/rebels against God (by our inherited sinfulness) and the penalty of our sin is death (physical and spiritual).

He wasn't 50% God and 50% man as though he were a demi-god; he was 100% God and 100% man, since he took nothing away from his own Divine essence by adding to himself the essence of humanity. If he were merely 50% human and 50% divine, then he couldn't die on behalf of humanity since what would be created if he merely mixed the essences would be a different species altogether, like a mule (50% horse and 50% donkey) or a demigod.

Also it was one person that coexisted as two essences in Jesus. God and man were the two essences, but the Son/Word/Jesus is the person that was shared by the essences.

Therefore, he was 100% God and 100% man, according to Christian theology.

Islam came about about 500-550 years after Jesus' death and resurrection and claims that Jesus somehow fooled everyone into thinking he was killed by crucifixion (including his disciples and mother and centurions who witnessed his death and burial). But Christians believe Jesus to be straight forward with his disciples and after his resurrection, appeared to many of them explaining why he had to die and be raised again (over 400 of them at once and at separate times). He showed himself to the apostles (multiple men) when they were in a locked room and Thomas believed because he saw with his eyes and felt with his hands that it was him. He also ate fried fish with them on multiple occasions after his resurrection. I think they thought that he was going to remain alive forever until he ascended so taht he could send us the Holy Spirit to empower us and give us authority to spread the word that Christ was killed for us and was raised in order to bring salvation to us so that after we die, we can be raised again afterwards and not suffer spiritual death (which is described like a lake of fire).

So Muslims shouldn't disagree that history favors Christianity in the sense that all sources seem to conclude that Jesus was definitely killed by crucifixion, since the Quran and other Islamic traditions (which comes over 500 years after the fact) states that God made it appear to us that Jesus was crucified, but he wasn't.

But that's the basic premise of the Christian view and the basic objection of the Islamic view.

Muslims also say that God can just forgive. He doesn't require a just punishment for our sins. Christians emphatically contend that God is just and if we were to be saved at all, that Jesus had to come as a perfect substitute to die on behalf of us, so that forensically we do not have to undergo the righteous judgement of the Almighty God. Afterall, what kind of judge would you have if they just forgave a murderer even though the murderer was guilty? A corrupt judge.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

That was the latest "approved" English translation of the Nicene Creed I posted. Here is the Athanasian Creed:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Edited November 22, 2012 by The Patriot

[bsd058 296]

That was the latest "approved" English translation of the Nicene Creed I posted. Here is the Athanasian Creed:

Whoops. Sorry about that. My bad. I honestly don't know why I got the two confused. Nicene creed is much more basic.

Edited November 22, 2012 by bsd058

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Whoops. Sorry about that. My bad. I honestly don't know why I got the two confused. Nicene creed is much more basic.

It is also a bit less confrontational, although the current translation of the Nicene Creed by the American Council of Bishops seems a little pedantic in wording. I fear the current Pope will do even more to reign in the wayward and often heretical US Catholics, although I do sense a schism already exists between the more liberal leaning dioceses and the more conservative ones, with a few more reactionary sects thrown in to the mix. Lately, I have just been avoiding the Church all together. Maybe I will make an appearance now that the election is over.

[zahrasalem 114]

In Islam, we beleive humans are not born with original sin and do not need to be "baptised". Why would a perfect God create humans to start out as sinners from birth? Therefore, we don't beleive that Jesus or anyone else died for our sins because humans are not born sinners. We bring our own sins upon ourselves and are responsible for our own sins. As well, we don't ask another human (a priest) for forgiveness, WE ASK GOD DIRECTLY, for forgiveness, no middleman needed.

We beleive God and Jesus to be separate entities. As I mentioned before, God created everything....heaven, earth, planets, humans, animals, etc.

Very simply......if God existed and created the earth and everything else before he created humans, and Jesus was a human (not even the first human), how could Jesus be God and create all of those things before he even existed or was born? So,correct, we do not beleive in the holy trinity.

Jesus never called himself "God" and never ordered everyone to pray to him. Praying to another human is praying to false Gods, which is a sin.

Islam is not complicated or confusing. But I have always found Christianity full of confusing and convoluted,long explanations of simple things, illogical reasoning and not making much sense.

[bsd058 296]

In Islam, we beleive humans are not born with original sin and do not need to be "baptised". Why would a perfect God create humans to start out as sinners from birth? Therefore, we don't beleive that Jesus or anyone else died for our sins because humans are not born sinners. We bring our own sins upon ourselves and are responsible for our own sins. As well, we don't ask another human (a priest) for forgiveness, WE ASK GOD DIRECTLY, for forgiveness, no middleman needed.

We beleive God and Jesus to be separate entities. As I mentioned before, God created everything....heaven, earth, planets, humans, animals, etc.

Very simply......if God existed and created the earth and everything else before he created humans, and Jesus was a human (not even the first human), how could Jesus be God and create all of those things before he even existed or was born? So,correct, we do not beleive in the holy trinity.

Jesus never called himself "God" and never ordered everyone to pray to him. Praying to another human is praying to false Gods, which is a sin.

Islam is not complicated or confusing. But I have always found Christianity full of confusing and convoluted,long explanations of simple things, illogical reasoning and not making much sense.

Funny. You call it illogical and convoluted. I find it completely understandable.

We don't "dumb down" reality to make it easier to understand, though. I wouldn't expect it from a physicist so why would I expect it from a theologian?

Islam comes on the scene hundreds of years later and thinks it knows Jesus better than his eye witnesses. lol. believe what you want, man. Whenever I hear that Christianity is illogical from a Muslim, I know they've never looked into it seriously enough. they just listen to their apologists and repeat what they say.

Edited November 22, 2012 by bsd058

[bsd058 296]

Funny. You call it illogical and convoluted. I find it completely understandable.

We don't "dumb down" reality to make it easier to understand, though. I wouldn't expect it from a physicist so why would I expect it from a theologian?

Islam comes on the scene hundreds of years later and thinks it knows Jesus better than his eye witnesses. lol. believe what you want. Whenever I hear that Christianity is illogical from a Muslim, I know they've never looked into it seriously enough and they don't care to. they just listen to their apologists and repeat what they say.

Edited November 22, 2012 by bsd058

[zahrasalem 114]

Funny. You call it illogical and convoluted. I find it completely understandable.

We don't "dumb down" reality to make it easier to understand, though. I wouldn't expect it from a physicist and I wouldn't expect it from a theologian.

Islam comes on the scene hundreds of years later and thinks it knows Jesus better than his eye witnesses. lol. believe what you want, man. Whenever I hear that Christianity is illogical from a Muslim, I know they've never looked into it seriously enough. they just listen to their apologists and repeat what they say.

Just because christianity is older doesn't mean it's right. And just because something is logical and simple doesn't mean it's "dumbed down". Complicated things aren't always better or right.

[bsd058 296]

Just because christianity is older doesn't mean it's right. And just because something is logical and simple doesn't mean it's "dumbed down". Complicated things aren't always better or right.

I didn't say that just because it's simple that it's dumbed down. You said that because it was complicated it wasn't logical. I just think it's a jab to say that because it sounded like you think that complicatedness and simpleness makes any difference to truthfuilness. So I'm jabbing back.

In this case, I'm just more willing to believe those who saw him and were his disciples than a man who didn't see any of the events and taught contrary to the eye witnesses.

Like I said though, you're probably not even willing to look into it for yourself.

Edited November 22, 2012 by bsd058

[zahrasalem 114]

I didn't say that just because it's simple that it's dumbed down. You said that because it was complicated it wasn't logical. I just think it's a jab to say that because it sounded like you think that complicatedness and simpleness makes any difference to truthfuilness. So I'm jabbing back.

In this case, I'm just more willing to believe those who saw him and were his disciples than a man who didn't see any of the events and taught contrary to the eye witnesses.

Like I said though, you're probably not even willing to look into it for yourself.

I never said that if something is complicated that it's illogical. And as far as "looking into it" for myself, I have, extensively, and the whole holy trinity concept is something I will never beleive. God is not Jesus, Jesus is not God or anything else, they are separate. Jesus never told anyone "I AM GOD". I don't have a need to "jab" either, I am capable of having a civil conversation or disagreement about anything, even religion, even when someone is trying to insult mine. Don't assume you know anything about someone else.

Edited November 22, 2012 by zahrasalem

[bsd058 296]

I never said that if something is complicated that it's illogical. And as far as "looking into it" for myself, I have, extensively, and the whole holy trinity concept is something I will never beleive. God is not Jesus, Jesus is not God or anything else, they are separate. Jesus never told anyone "I AM GOD". I don't have a need to "jab" either, I am capable of having a civil conversation or disagreement about anything, even religion, even when someone is trying to insult mine. Don't assume you know anything about someone else.

He certainly did. That this lets me know you've never looked into it or you looked into on such a superficial level (as most Muslims do) that you just couldn't care less.

You're just not being honest with yourself. I wish I were gentler to Muslims, but it annoys me so much. so I'm sorry for being so emphatic. But you can tell when a Muslim really understands the claims of Christianity and when they've been indoctrinated by apologists. Heck, it even happens to Christians. I get just as angry at Christians when they don't understand another religion properly and then try to speak against it.

I know more about Islam than you think and I know Muslims that actually take Christian claims seriously. They know better than to say that Christianity is illogical. So I know when I see one that has read up on it. you've never looked into Christianity seriously. Sorry.

Edited November 22, 2012 by bsd058

[zahrasalem 114]

He certainly did. That this lets me know you've never looked into it or you looked into on such a superficial level (as most Muslims do) that you just couldn't care less.

You're just not being honest with yourself. I wish I were gentler to Muslims, but it annoys me so much. so I'm sorry for being so emphatic. But you can tell when a Muslim really understands the claims of Christianity and when they've been indoctrinated by apologists. Heck, it even happens to Christians. I get just as angry at Christians when they don't understand another religion properly and then try to speak against it.

I know more about Islam than you think and I know Muslims that actually take Christian claims seriously. They know better than to say that Christianity is illogical. So I know a fake when I see one. you've never looked into Christianity. Sorry.

Stop being so arrogant that you think you know about other people. I just don't beleive everything the bible has to say since it was written and translated a million times over by other human beings over time. It doesn'r mean I don't beleive anything about it. i definitely don't beleive in the holy trinity concept.

Typical Christian.........bashes anyone who doesn't beleive what they beleive. Did I bash you for not beleiving in Islam?

Happy Thanksgiving.

[bsd058 296]

Stop being so arrogant that you think you know about other people. I just don't beleive everything the bible has to say since it was written and translated a million times over by other human beings over time. It doesn'r mean I don't beleive anything about it. i definitely don't beleive in the holy trinity concept.

Typical Christian.........bashes anyone who doesn't beleive what they beleive. Did I bash you for not beleiving in Islam?

Happy Thanksgiving.

I didn't lie by saying I've looked into Islam seriously when I didn't.

You said Christianity was illogical. Don't cry foul if you can dish it but can't take it.

It's ok if you don't believe in it. You will one day. A person can't help what they believe.

Edited November 22, 2012 by bsd058

[bsd058 296]

In saying all of that...I agree I should be nicer. Sorry for being so mean.

Edited November 22, 2012 by bsd058