Marriage is Failing ... What to do?

[justashooter 430]

there is no VAWA case in this situation. there is no choice for her other than to leave and return to phillipines, or go TNT, which could result in arrest and jail time before deportation. she would be wiser to go under her own power, then to leave in handcuffs.

[Artisan 138]

For the proof of abuse, it sounds like the only evidence she's got so far are the statements she's made to her aunt. The strongest evidence when claiming psychological or emotional abuse are statements from a psychologist or psychiatrist, or even a professional marriage counselor. Does she have any of this?

there is no VAWA case in this situation. there is no choice for her other than to leave and return to phillipines, or go TNT, which could result in arrest and jail time before deportation. she would be wiser to go under her own power, then to leave in handcuffs.

The proof can come after the young woman is safely out of the home and social workers and counselors can evaluate her claim. At the very least she is out of a home she doesn't want to be in at this time. Once she has left and entered a shelter an investigation can be launched. The police and social workers can interview neighbors and members of the local community. They will question the husband, the wife, and the child. In short telling someone that they don't have the standing for a VAWA case because they haven't been nearly beaten to death is a bit irresponsible. The best thing to do is get the immigrant out of the home and to safety and let the professionals do their job. If there is no VAWA case to be had then the Philippine Embassy or local social workers will help her get back home, until then she has every right to attempt to stay in the US.

Honestly, if everyone that moaned and complained about people abusing VAWA would support the psychological testing for visa petitioners we'd probably see fewer problems. Anyone that is controlling or aggressive could be weeded out as potentially abusive and the beneficiary would be denied the visa. We have to prove that we are financially able to support our spouses, we should have to prove to be able to support them emotionally and psychologically as well.

[NikLR 13,232]

People don't have to prove they will make good or even adequate parents so why would they ever test to see if someone would make a good spouse?

[rlogan 2,036]

We see a common pattern of abuse that is often observed in the Filipino-American communities here in the US. Everyone I have ever met in the Fil-Am community (and I mean literally everyone) has a story of a family member or friend that has suffered some level of abuse from a husband or boyfriend here in the US. So many men see Filipinas as nothing but chattel that are here to provide them maid service and sex all in return for a better life (which isn't all that better when you are trapped in an abusive relationship).

You didn't say anyone reported any abuse to the police nor filed VAWA petitions.

This is a lesson in "how to detect B.S. 101". The meme is lame enough coming from jealous ex-wives and envious men married to fat old domestic gasbags. But coming from one married to a Filipina it has the special absurd connotation of "everyone beats their wife but me".

I guess it is why so many Filipinas are eager to marry American men, eh? Because they all have friends and relatives who are trapped in abusive relationships here.

Jim that was an excellent insight: "free sex". That statement reveals a really manipulative view of sex. Notice how you don't hear men accusing women of getting "free sex" from them.

This Filipina spoken of in the OP would have learned about VAWA at the CFO seminar, which is not only required in order to exit the country, but VAWA is more or less the centerpiece of the seminar. So there is something wrong with this picture.

Edited November 24, 2012 by rlogan

[Peter_Pan 661]

Perhaps they cannot afford it? The AOS I mean. Would you lend her the money?

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

The proof can come after the young woman is safely out of the home and social workers and counselors can evaluate her claim. At the very least she is out of a home she doesn't want to be in at this time. Once she has left and entered a shelter an investigation can be launched. The police and social workers can interview neighbors and members of the local community. They will question the husband, the wife, and the child. In short telling someone that they don't have the standing for a VAWA case because they haven't been nearly beaten to death is a bit irresponsible. The best thing to do is get the immigrant out of the home and to safety and let the professionals do their job. If there is no VAWA case to be had then the Philippine Embassy or local social workers will help her get back home, until then she has every right to attempt to stay in the US.

There has been no insinuation that the OP's niece is in any physical danger. I never even implied that she should wait until she's been nearly beaten to death. I stated the facts. Proving a VAWA case where physical abuse is involved is complicated. Proving a VAWA case where only psychological or emotional abuse is involved is substantially more difficult. Once she is out of the home then unless she is claiming physical abuse it's doubtful the police will even investigate. What would be the point? Their first objective in a DV case is to get the abused spouse into a safe environment. Since that would already have been done they'd ask about evidence that might lead to a conviction. What are they going to find? No prosecutor would bring charges of DV against a spouse if the charge was only psychological or emotional abuse, and the only evidence was the testimony of a social worker who had interviewed the abused spouse. I've also never heard of a VAWA case being successful when such testimony was the only evidence offered. The problem with such evidence is that it's completely subjective, and corroborated only by the spouse making the accusation. In circumstances like this, there is no substantial difference between a spouse who is lying and one who is telling the truth. This is rarely good enough for USCIS, and we're not even beginning to address the requirement for proof of good faith marriage.

My opinion remains the same. I think a VAWA petition will fail.

Honestly, if everyone that moaned and complained about people abusing VAWA would support the psychological testing for visa petitioners we'd probably see fewer problems. Anyone that is controlling or aggressive could be weeded out as potentially abusive and the beneficiary would be denied the visa. We have to prove that we are financially able to support our spouses, we should have to prove to be able to support them emotionally and psychologically as well.

The problem with a psychological examination is that it will often only reveal what the person being examined wants the examiner to discover. Granted, there are cases of people who are severely mentally ill, and it's often beyond the ability of those people to hide their illness from a psychiatric professional. For most people with legitimate mental illness, however, it's extremely easy to hide their disorder from an examiner. Look at the diagnoses criteria for most of the disorders in the DSM IV. Most require the patient to actually admit to a symptom before a diagnosis can be made. A patient could have Bipolar II disorder and actually have a hypo-manic episode in the examiner's office, and the examiner probably wouldn't even recognize it unless they already knew the patient because they would need to know the patient's normal behavior to have a basis for comparison. Most people who are diagnosed with mental illnesses are patients who voluntarily seek help, and voluntarily offer truthful information to the examiner.

In other words, your recommendation might catch the severe whackos, but most of these people aren't that seriously afflicted. They can function normally in society, and most people - even those who know them well - aren't aware of their mental illness. If a psychiatric examiner asked "Have you ever had homicidal or cannibalistic thoughts or behavior?", even Jeffery Dahmer would have been smart enough to say "no". He wasn't delusional. He knew his behavior was abhorrent to normal people, and would have been smart enough to tell an examiner what he thought would have been a normal response. What made him severely mentally ill was the fact that he was capable of engaging in that behavior in the first place.

On a related note, I saw an episode of "Doomsday Preppers" on NatGeo TV the other day. The "prepper" they interviewed was convinced that society was on the verge of collapse, and was preparing to "bug out" to a small piece of property a few hours from the city, and live in an RV with a stash of canned food and his guns. During the show a taxi pulls up, and out of the taxi comes his K1 fiancee, having just arrived from Colombia. After showing her his apartment, he takes her up to the roof so she can see the neighborhood they live in. This is when he breaks the news that he's a "doomsday prepper", and he's preparing to "bug out" to his little piece of land in two weeks and wait out the end of civilization. A little later in the show they interviewed her separately and she admitted she thought he was a "little crazy". Later in the show, two weeks have passed and they've already married and getting ready to head to their "bug out" location. I would really like to see a follow up on THAT relationship a year from now.

Geez, after saying that I sure hope neither of those people are VJ members.

[Artisan 138]

My opinion remains the same. I think a VAWA petition will fail.

Which is different than saying there is no chance for a VAWA. You can't be certain because you are not there and none of us know the full story. If the young woman is unhappy and feeling trapped in the relationship the best course of action is to get her out of the home and somewhere where she FEELS safe. Being protected emotionally is as important, if not more important, than being protected from physical abuse. After the police and social workers are involved then the issue of immigration can be handled by the USCIS. If they determine there is no violation of the VAWA they will be more than happy to direct the woman to the Philippine Embassy and sent home.

The problem with a psychological examination is that it will often only reveal what the person being examined wants the examiner to discover.

You seem to have a decent grasp of psychology so I'm surprised you've not been exposed to tests like the MMPI-2 and MCMI-III. These tests are designed in such a way that trying to mislead the test will result in the validity scale being skewed. You might not know what problem the person has but you know they are hiding something which in my opinion should lead to automatic rejection of an application. We spend a lot of effort trying to screen potential problems on the side of the foreign spouse (Heaven forbid a young woman shows up at the medical with scratches/scars on her arms, more than a couple of tattoos, or a few extra piercings) yet spend very little time judging the character of the USC. That is a problem.

[rlogan 2,036]

We spend a lot of effort trying to screen potential problems on the side of the foreign spouse (Heaven forbid a young woman shows up at the medical with scratches/scars on her arms, more than a couple of tattoos, or a few extra piercings) yet spend very little time judging the character of the USC. That is a problem.

Good thing you aren't in charge.

The decision about whether to marry is between the individuals. It is not the responsibility nor capability of some third party bureaucrat to make that decision. You don't seem to understand that the government is looking for marriage fraud, not doing matchmaking.

You are also confused about the U.S. screening for diseases. They screen for those because they have the potential to spread harm or death to other people. It has nothing to do with judging their character for marriage.

We are data-driven here, not wild-opinion driven. You've already demonstrated a proclivity for completely baseless wild exaggeration. This is the website for the Center for Disease Control, information on immigration medical exams:

CDC Website on immigration medical exams

The health-related grounds include those aliens who have a communicable disease of public health significance, who fail to present documentation of having received vaccination against vaccine-preventable diseases, who have or have had a physical or mental disorder with associated harmful behavior, and who are drug abusers or addicts.

See how there is nothing about tattoos or piercings? It is not helpful to make wild assertions without evidence on a forum dedicated to accurate information. You put fear in the minds of people who have tattoos or piercings if they listen to such nonsense.

jimvaphuong is about the most knowledgable person I have seen in four years on this forum as it pertains to issues on this page. This case in particular is specious because the woman, as a Filipina immigrant, knows full well about VAWA. She was required to learn about it in the CFO seminar. Why didn't this Filipina, who knows about VAWA, bother to tell her Auntie about it? That's a pretty conclusive demonstration that the immigrant has no intention of pursuing a VAWA claim herself.

[Artisan 138]

Good thing you aren't in charge.

The decision about whether to marry is between the individuals. It is not the responsibility nor capability of some third party bureaucrat to make that decision. You don't seem to understand that the government is looking for marriage fraud, not doing matchmaking.

Then why bother screening for financial stability and minimum income or any of the other things they ask about yet are not screened domestically? You don't need to prove anything if you marry someone here, but if you marry a foreigner you have to prove to the satisfaction of a 'third party bureaucrat' that you are financially secure, not a felon, and a US citizen. Your beneficiary has to prove they are medically fit, not suicidal (or have a history of severe depression), or have a criminal record. Your spouse can't have been a former prostitute (or a card carrying Communist) even if it was legal in their country of origin. So you have no basis to wave the libertarian banner and say the government doesn't have the right to tell you who you can marry. Of course you can marry who you want but you can't live with them here in the US if the third party bureaucrats decide they don't like your spouse for some reason that wouldn't stop anyone from living free as citizens in the US.

You are also confused about the U.S. screening for diseases. They screen for those because they have the potential to spread harm or death to other people. It has nothing to do with judging their character for marriage.

We are data-driven here, not wild-opinion driven. You've already demonstrated a proclivity for completely baseless wild exaggeration. This is the website for the Center for Disease Control, information on immigration medical exams:

CDC Website on immigration medical exams

See how there is nothing about tattoos or piercings? It is not helpful to make wild assertions without evidence on a forum dedicated to accurate information. You put fear in the minds of people who have tattoos or piercings if they listen to such nonsense.

Just ignore the multiple posts people on VJ have made about being questioned about their tattoos. For many people it is not an issue. Some get additional testing for Hep and others get sent off for AP to see if their tattoos have any gang affiliation. Anyone that has scars on their arms have to spend time with the shrink and/or bring psych records to prove they are not cutters or suicidal. As for piercings, again, people are tested for Hep and if the number of piercings are above average and/or in unusual places the shrink may be called in again to ask about why the person felt 'the need to mutilate'* their body.

*an exact quote the doctor at St. Luke's asked my wife's close friend that immigrated to Hawaii last year after she was referred for a psych eval when it was discovered she had tongue and clitoral piercings.

That's a pretty conclusive demonstration that the immigrant has no intention of pursuing a VAWA claim herself.

No one here claimed the niece wanted to make the VAWA case. The aunt wanted advice on how the young woman could apply for residency on her own or with the Aunt's help. It is clear that the young woman in question has either said or implied to the aunt that she is unhappy in the marriage. Given the aunt's description of the situation (and that alone is all the evidence from which we have to draw conclusions) it is probable that there is some level of emotional abuse. So I, and others, have offered the advice of getting the young woman out of the house and then seek the path of legal immigration through the possible use of the VAWA. If the later investigations pan out to be false or unsubstantiated at the very least the young woman is out of the relationship she clearly is unhappy about given her conversations with her aunt.

Finally I'm going to be clear that most of my advice comes from having spent many years as part of a rather large Fil-Am immigrant community. Dozens of local families gather on a monthly basis to share stories, offer advice, arrange parties, and facilitate relationships/marriages between family friends and relatives back home. I have heard about, or witnessed the aftermath of, nearly every immigration horror story you could imagine. There are always those people that never have a single problem when it comes to dealing with the USCIS. Some people however are not so blessed and those are the examples you use to make sure everyone knows what could happen given a worse case scenario.

[rlogan 2,036]

Then why bother screening for financial stability and minimum income or any of the other things they ask about yet are not screened domestically?

For exactly the same reason: that you do not cause harm to others. In this case by being a public burden. It isn't just for marriage immigration. All the students I had in my graduate program while graduate director also had to prove financial capability too. If you are on a tourist visa the income or asset requirements back home are REALLY strict. This is a requirement for immigration, not marriage.

For felons: so you are not likely to cause crime. All of these are impacts upon others, not your spouse. Same thing there: this is an immigration requirement, not a marriage requirement.

Prostitution - well, that's pretty stupid moralistic #######. I see their theory is still the same, but I don't agree with it. Heh. They might be the best ones to import!

Just ignore the multiple posts people on VJ have made about being questioned about their tattoos. For many people it is not an issue. Some get additional testing for Hep and others get sent off for AP to see if their tattoos have any gang affiliation.

Hey that's pertinent, thanks: Hepatitis is associated with poor tattoo practices, yes. And you are getting tested for this whether you are getting married or not. So what does this have to do with marriage? Nothing. And Philippines is one of the biggest sources of Hepatitis B infections:

Hepatitis B in immigrants

So stop using this as a rationale for marriage viability. I got tested for Hepatitis for wrestling coaching every year. I am not marrying my wrestling teams.

Gang affiliation - that's also crime related so this is good information for immigrants. Bad idea to join a gang and put their emblem on yourself. This again is an immigration issue, not a marriage issue. I'm happily corrected about anything pertinent to immigration, but you are wrong in claiming these are requirements for marriage.

Anyone that has scars on their arms have to spend time with the shrink and/or bring psych records to prove they are not cutters or suicidal.

Rubbish. My wife has plenty of scars and spent no time with shrinks because they were not slash marks on her wrists or anything indicative of suicide. I see an awful lot of Filipinas with those round scars, not sure what they are from but you see them on their legs a lot. My wife has them too.

So here you are again exaggerating.

As for piercings, again, people are tested for Hep and if the number of piercings are above average and/or in unusual places the shrink may be called in again to ask about why the person felt 'the need to mutilate'* their body.

Hepatitis again - same thing with bad piercing practice. This is a communicable disease and that's what they are after.

Your personal anecdotes have proven wild exaggerations already, so I'm just not interested in them at this point. If you showed that you were reasonable and were willing to moderate those ridiculous statements about how pervasive abuse is in Fil-Am relationships, then you would start sounding like a reasonable person that others might listen to.

You are casting aspersions on people here at this forum without realizing that you are doing it.

So I, and others, have offered the advice of getting the young woman out of the house and then seek the path of legal immigration through the possible use of the VAWA.

The immigrant took a seminar on VAWA before she left the country. With all this knowledge you claim to have about the Fil-Am situation that is a rather curious thing for you to be ignorant of.

Finally I'm going to be clear that most of my advice comes from having spent many years as part of a rather large Fil-Am immigrant community. Dozens of local families gather on a monthly basis to share stories, offer advice, arrange parties, and facilitate relationships/marriages between family friends and relatives back home. I have heard about, or witnessed the aftermath of, nearly every immigration horror story you could imagine. There are always those people that never have a single problem when it comes to dealing with the USCIS. Some people however are not so blessed and those are the examples you use to make sure everyone knows what could happen given a worse case scenario.

*yawn*

You are up against the combined experience of thousands upon thousands of immigrants on this forum and all of the immigraqnts they know of - you seem to think you are the only one who has a Fil-Am association in your area.

My companions here at this forum are going to correct me in my errors and I am glad for it. There is one above I acknowledge, and that is the link between hepatitis and needle use of any kind. But you are using that as a logical fallacy. (Drawing the false conclusion) It isn't a marriage issue. It is an immigration issue.

[Artisan 138]

Your personal anecdotes have proven wild exaggerations already, so I'm just not interested in them at this point. If you showed that you were reasonable and were willing to moderate those ridiculous statements about how pervasive abuse is in Fil-Am relationships, then you would start sounding like a reasonable person that others might listen to.

You are casting aspersions on people here at this forum without realizing that you are doing it.

Personally I don't care what you believe or don't believe. Your opinion that I'm lying is bordering on slanderous. You seem to only find reasonable those people that would agree with you, which given your posting history I would find unlikely to do on any given day. If you want to find fault you may continue to do so, however I will continue to defend my own posts and opinions regardless of your attempted bullying.

The immigrant took a seminar on VAWA before she left the country. With all this knowledge you claim to have about the Fil-Am situation that is a rather curious thing for you to be ignorant of.

At no point did I say the niece was unaware of VAWA, I implied she may never have considered it when talking to her aunt. The aunt may never have been made aware of the VAWA (or how it applied to immigrants) if she left the Philippines prior to 1994 and the creation of the Act. Not every CFO seminar covers the same material in the same level of detail either. My wife tells me that all she remembers being told about was how to contact the Philippine Embassy in case she found herself forced into the sex trade and she just took the CFO seminar about two months ago so she could get her passport updated with her married name. From the way she tells it they just showed a series of films depicting rape and kidnapping for close to two hours in an attempt to scare the women into staying home.

The point is moot however. All that matters is the aunt is concerned about the welfare of her niece. Information has been provided to assist the aunt in extracting the young woman from the home, if that is her desire. If, after the fact, the niece wants to file a VAWA case with the USCIS or go back home to the Philippines that will be her choice. As others have said there is nothing the aunt can do to intervene as a petitioner. I still say that if the young woman doesn't want to stay in the relationship and can't or doesn't want to go back to the Philippines the VAWA route is her best option to remain in the US. Gathering the evidence to prove it will be up to her legal aid, the local social workers, and the police.

It isn't a marriage issue. It is an immigration issue.

Petitioners should be held to the same standards of morality as well as physical and mental health as the beneficiaries, regardless of the type of visa. If you are petitioning someone and you cannot support them financially your beneficiary is denied a visa. I believe it is only fair to stop distributing visas via petitioners that may not be able to emotionally or psychologically support someone for the exact same reasons that would bar a beneficiary i.e. they have a 'physical or mental disorder with associated harmful behavior' or 'are drug abusers or addicts'. As it stands now a petitioner could be a raging alcoholic/drug addict with an aggressive/self-destructive mental disorder and the USCIS couldn't care less as long as they made >18k a year, paid the fees, and filed the paperwork in a proper manner.

[rlogan 2,036]

Petitioners should be held to the same standards of morality as well as physical and mental health as the beneficiaries

The problem is equal protection of citizens under the law. We can't place marriage restrictions on one citizen and not another.

You keep thinking immigration restrictions are marriage restrictions.

You are also wrong about the sponsor having to prove financial sufficiency. With all this vast experience you allege, you also seem ignorant of the fact the sponsor doesn't have to make a penny. So long as SHE can find a co-sponsor, she gets in just fine.

You'll find that when you admit you are wrong about something it goes a lot better for you than sticking your foot in your mouth and digging your hole even deeper.

I was happy about the connection between needle use and Hepatitis made. Because that makes me a more informed person. But when we get our ego wrapped up in it, and refuse to admit mistakes, then we end up looking pretty foolish.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

My niece arrived on a K1 Visa and her young son on a K2 visa. She will be married two full year by April of 2013.

Her husband has however, not done the things he should have.

On another post someone said that there 3 reasons why the US citizen spouse fails to file for AOS as soon as possible after the marriage:

1) He/She is abusive, trying to have leverage on the foreign spouse, wants to be able to get rid of her/him if the need arises.

2) They are as poor as a mouse living under the bench of a church.

3) He/She is extremely smart.

Let's assume #3 is the case.

Now, AOS will require to file an I-130 ($420) in addition to the I-485 ($1,070). A new medical is also required.

Yet, the foreign spouse gets an unrestricted 10-year Green Card and the couple does not have to file for Removal of Conditions, which saves them $590 and a lot of headaches.

Then again, in the past 3 years the foreign spouse could have contributed to the family's income, so maybe the US citizen spouse wasn't that smart after all, which would eliminate #3. Which leaves us with #1 or #2, or a combination thereof.

***

In her situation, it is 1 and 2

He does not even give her pocket money. He tells her he did not file papers to legalize her status nor money for simple things in order to control her and keep her from leaving him, because he was testing her. His brother informed me that he isn't filing her as a dependent on his taxes, and that he did not add her to any bank accounts, or anything else.

I am outraged that he essentially has her for free sex, and am worried for her safety and her six yr old son. What can I do to legally process her? Does she need to stay in this marriage a full two years and simply have me file the papers and pay the fees for her? But that would require his cooperation with interview etc...?

Or is there some legal recourse she can take to file for residency on her own? Is there a free legal service that can help her do the filings on her own (she is in Wichita, KS but I am in California)? Other than showing proof they live together via letters to their home and presents I have sent her, and the elementary school her son attends there, what documents can she show that it has been a real marriage thus far? She has been a good wife and patient, but he has been acting strange, by being aloof, isolated and on his computer all night...and for me, I have heard of men who bring women over to marry only to kill them to start over in a new relationship. I know that is extreme but I do worry for her and her son.

I am a citizen and her father's first cousin. Can my husband and I file on her behalf?

Pls help.

No you cannot file. You do not have a petitionable relationship.

#3 does not indicate intelligence as the ROC is very simple and cheaper than filing the I-130 and I-485 PLUS another medical.

A person who loves his spouse would proceed with her benefits as soon as possible. My wife was approved for her citizenship 16 days after she became eligible. All of this is delaying her citizenship also. If she were to need to leave the US for a family emergency she could not return. She cannot work. These are all things a normal person WANTS for his wife.

[Artisan 138]

A person who loves his spouse would proceed with her benefits as soon as possible. My wife was approved for her citizenship 16 days after she became eligible. All of this is delaying her citizenship also. If she were to need to leave the US for a family emergency she could not return. She cannot work. These are all things a normal person WANTS for his wife.

This is what makes it seem like there is some level of emotional abuse going on in that home. It may be understandable to not adjust status due to financial difficulties but you'd think that would be the very first thing you'd save for just so your spouse could work and increase the income coming into the household. At any rate I do hope that the OP follows up with her niece and works out a resolution to the situation.