tuesday thread

[honeyblonde 0]

Abdel is excited about passing out candy tonight. Besides, he knows he gets to eat what's left. He was telling me that they have a similar tradition in his part of Morocco, where the kids go and sing at people's houses and people give them cakes or fruit or nuts or dates, or they pour water on them out the window. He said if the people aren't nice, the song changes to a mean song. He thinks it is really cool how all over the world there are versions of the same traditions.

His family also celebrates Ramadan and Christmas, even though they aren't really religious. For them they are more like just fun holidays.

[Veiled Princess 1]

My husband knows all about Halloween. I wrote a paper about the history of Halloween and read it to him when we first began talking. I wish I had that essay here at work with me. It explains a lot that people don't know. There is actually some catholic backround to it, if I remember correctly. I think they called it "All Saints day." But now it's all fun and games. We let the kids go out and get candy, dress in costumes and have a chance to have a fun day filled with imagination. Now we don't teach about how it started because of the fall equinox. (wonder why we always change the clocks about the same time as Halloween?) I also think that people have pagans pegged as the wrong thing. Pagans were worshippers of nature, not the devil. That concept didn't come around until people became more and more ignorant to their ways of life. But what do I know? I grew up in our era, where it was already twisted and turned around. Now when people think pagan, they think it's wicca, but it's not. But anyway, it's your decision to think and do what you want. Do you think that if everyone actually stopped celebrating Halloween the "Evil Spirits" will not come out and play? It'll happen no matter what we do. So I choose to have fun and enjoy the one time of the year where I can dress up and have that same imagination I used to have as a kid, without people looking at me all funny because they are dressed up too!

This would make an interesting debate and one I'd participate in.... in another setting.

[doodlebug 3]

Happy Halloween!!!

I think this just be the last year my oldest will go trick or treating. She's getting to that stage where there isn't much of a costume involved...just wearing her own clothes and putting some funky make up on. Doesn't want me to go with her and neither does here younger sister!! I've NEVER not gone with them. Actually they don't wanna go with each other either since that would be "wicked gross".

Usama hates the idea that my kids are going trick or treating but I told him he has to get over it since for us it's all about the candy and being outside after dark. No other meaning for us. I did used to stress the All Saints day part of it up until I converted and we would go to mass (I think it's a Holy Day of Obligation but I can't remember) the following day.

I think once he experiences it once he'll get the idea of what it really is about. The only bad thing is that Salem, MA is the next town over and they DO have real witches around (I've met three in my life) so it's gonna be hard convincing him.

I fully intend to have a tree up this year and since my kids are Christian we'll definitely have the presents etc. I just won't attend mass and I will view it as a fun time to give gifts. I know as muslims we don't celebrate birthdays per se but that could also be another take on it.....celebrating the Prophet Jesus, pbuh, birthday.

[Karen_L 1]

Fiancé's Canadian, and they celebrate Halloween there, and it's not about worshipping the devil there, either.

Lots of holidays have origins that don't line up with people's beliefs. Celebrate Valentine's Day?

Ok sorry I was specifically asking those with muslim SOs from "over there".

No I don't celebrate any holiday other than the two eids.

My husband is Muslim and I told him the history of Halloween and he thinks it's interesting. He celebrates any holiday that seems fun to him, including Christmas and Halloween. I can't really say he 'celebrates' Halloween though because he isn't 10 years old, but he will help me hand out candy tonight and I think he got into the mini milky ways already lol.

[Together4ever 1]

Mohammed wanted to celebrate this Halloween with the kids, but alas it'll have be over the stupid cell phone AGAIN. We really thought he'd be here for this. He is game to share anything fun with family, so even though he knows the origin of the holiday, as do I, we just like to share in the festive sentiments of the holiday with the kids. Hopefully NEXT YEAR he'll be here for it. *grumbles*

[Mrs. Forgetful 2]

Happy Halloween and Tuesday everyone! I am now officially 22 years old today! Yay for me! I'm getting off work at 12:30 and going to hang out at home for the rest of the afternoon. Then Adil and I have reservations for dinner at this little thai bistro. After that we are going to Bates Motel . I'm very excited! Well I have to get going. I have to start preparing to leave. I hope you all have a good day full of fun!

HAPPY HALLOWEEN!!!!!

THE bates motel?

Not that I know, but that would be cool if it was. It supposed to be this really big attraction here in PA. They have a haunted hay ride, a haunted corn maze, and a haunted house(Bates Motel). Should be fun. only $30 for all three events. most places are $25 for only one thing.

Abdel is excited about passing out candy tonight. Besides, he knows he gets to eat what's left. He was telling me that they have a similar tradition in his part of Morocco, where the kids go and sing at people's houses and people give them cakes or fruit or nuts or dates, or they pour water on them out the window. He said if the people aren't nice, the song changes to a mean song. He thinks it is really cool how all over the world there are versions of the same traditions.

His family also celebrates Ramadan and Christmas, even though they aren't really religious. For them they are more like just fun holidays.

My husband told me about this moroccan tradition. He claims he never did it because he was too cool.

This was also his first time ever carving a pumpkin. He had fun and was really proud of carving out the design I drew. But he got really upset because he accidently cut one of the vampire teeth.

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

which mena member thought she knew david unger, of leavenworth?

some info for that person on

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...mp;#entry539298

[ya falaha! 0]

That's how my Mohamed is too. He doesn't care of the origins so much as long as the kids are having fun. That's why he wants to celebrate Christmas and if he were here I think he'd get a kick out of Halloween. He knows what it is but he's never experienced it. I have to confess that I've missed celebrating these holidays just for the fun factor. My ex was pretty strict about not celebrating holidays that aren't Islamic.

Mohammed wanted to celebrate this Halloween with the kids, but alas it'll have be over the stupid cell phone AGAIN. We really thought he'd be here for this. He is game to share anything fun with family, so even though he knows the origin of the holiday, as do I, we just like to share in the festive sentiments of the holiday with the kids. Hopefully NEXT YEAR he'll be here for it. *grumbles*

[sarah and hicham 3]

For those of you with muslim SOs... and I don't want to start a fight or a big debate I'm just curious since they obviously don't have this holiday in their home countries and may seriously not realize what they're engaging in... do they realize / have you explained to them that Halloween is a pagan/satanic holiday when they're celebrating it with you?

I have celebrated Halloween my whole like but not as a pagan/satanic holiday as you say. I would dress up with my friends and go trick or treating. I have explained to Hicham what Halloween used to be and we even watched a documentry about it last night, but he knows that I have never celebrated it that way (lighing grass on fire and wearing masks and chanting in a circle).

He knows that in our neighborhood kids dress up. I hope we get osme trick or treators tonight!

But I think it would be wrong to explain it to a foreigner as 'This is the day when Americans worship the devil', because mostly it's about letting kids get candy and run around on sugar highs.

[Caladan 19]

All Saint's Day is November 1st. It doesn't really have anything to do directly with Halloween, at least not to the extent that celebrating Halloween is a Catholic thing.

It's just that depending on the version of the story you read, as some of the pagans converted to Christianity, and as the Catholic feast day happened to be near the old holiday Samhain, the old holiday became 'All Hallows' Eve.' (i.e., the night before All Saints' Day.) Quite a lot of the history of Christianity is modifying old festivals for new purposes (whether intentionally or not).

But All Saints' Day doesn't have anything to do with trick-or-treating, or devil worship, or the all-important mini candy bars. As far as the Church is concerned, Hallowe'en's just a day for kids to dress up and get candy.

[doodlebug 3]

All Saint's Day is November 1st. It doesn't really have anything to do directly with Halloween, at least not to the extent that celebrating Halloween is a Catholic thing.

It's just that depending on the version of the story you read, as some of the pagans converted to Christianity, and as the Catholic feast day happened to be near the old holiday Samhain, the old holiday became 'All Hallows' Eve.' (i.e., the night before All Saints' Day.) Quite a lot of the history of Christianity is modifying old festivals for new purposes (whether intentionally or not).

But All Saints' Day doesn't have anything to do with trick-or-treating, or devil worship, or the all-important mini candy bars. As far as the Church is concerned, Hallowe'en's just a day for kids to dress up and get candy.

Halloween

Learn the real truth about Halloween and its history

By Father Augustine Thompson

We’ve all heard the allegations. Halloween is a pagan rite dating back to some pre-Christian festival among the Celtic Druids that escaped Church suppression. Even today modern pagans and witches continue to celebrate this ancient festival. If you let your kids go trick-or-treating, they will be worshiping the devil and pagan gods.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The origins of Halloween are, in fact, very Christian and rather American. Halloween falls on Oct. 31 because of a pope, and its observances are the result of medieval Catholic piety.

It’s true that the ancient Celts of Ireland and Britain celebrated a minor festival on Oct. 31 — as they did on the last day of most other months of the year. However, Halloween falls on the last day of October because the Feast of All Saints or “All Hallows” falls on Nov. 1. The feast in honor of all the saints in heaven used to be celebrated on May 13, but Pope Gregory III (d. 741) moved it to Nov. 1, the dedication day of All Saints Chapel in St. Peter’s at Rome. Later, in the 840s, Pope Gregory IV commanded that All Saints be observed everywhere. And so the holy day spread to Ireland. The day before was the feast’s evening vigil, “All Hallows Even” or “Hallowe’en.” In those days, Halloween didn’t have any special significance for Christians or for long-dead Celtic pagans.

In 998, St. Odilo, the abbot of the powerful monastery of Cluny in Southern France, added a celebration on Nov. 2. This was a day of prayer for the souls of all the faithful departed. This feast, called All Souls’ Day, spread from France to the rest of Europe.

So now the Church had feasts for all those in heaven and all those in purgatory. What about those in the other place? It seems Irish Catholic peasants wondered about the unfortunate souls in hell. After all, if the souls in hell are left out when we celebrate those in heaven and purgatory, they might be unhappy enough to cause trouble. So it became customary to bang pots and pans on All Hallows Even to let the d-mned know they were not forgotten. Thus, in Ireland, at least, all the dead came to be remembered — even if the clergy were not terribly sympathetic to Halloween and never allowed All D-mned Day into the Church calendar.

But that still isn’t our celebration of Halloween. Our traditions on this holiday centers around dressing up in fanciful costumes, which isn’t Irish at all. Rather, this custom arose in France during the 14th and 15th centuries. Late medieval Europe was hit by repeated outbreaks of the bubonic plague — the Black Death — and she lost about half her population. It is not surprising that Catholics became more concerned about the afterlife. More Masses were said on All Souls’ Day, and artistic representations were devised to remind everyone of their own mortality.

We know these representations as the “Dance Macabre” or “Dance of Death,” which was commonly painted on the walls of cemeteries and shows the devil leading a daisy chain of people — popes, kings, ladies, knights, monks, peasants, lepers, etc. — into the tomb. Sometimes the dance was presented on All Souls’ Day itself as a living tableau with people dressed up in the garb of various states of life. But the French dressed up on All Souls, not Halloween; and the Irish, who had Halloween, did not dress up. How the two became mingled probably happened first in the British colonies of North America during the 1700s when Irish and French Catholics began to intermarry. The Irish focus on hell gave the French masquerades an even more macabre twist.

But, as every young ghoul knows, dressing up isn’t the point; the point is getting as many goodies as possible. Where on earth did “trick or treat” come in?

“Treat or treat” is perhaps the oddest and most American addition to Halloween, and is the unwilling contribution of English Catholics.

During the penal period of the 1500s to the 1700s in England, Catholics had no legal rights. They could not hold office and were subject to fines, jail and heavy taxes. It was a capital offense to say Mass, and hundreds of priests were martyred.

Occasionally, English Catholics resisted, sometimes foolishly. One of the most foolish acts of resistance was a plot to blow up the Protestant King James I and his Parliament with gunpowder. This was supposed to trigger a Catholic uprising against their oppressors. The ill-conceived Gunpowder Plot was foiled on Nov. 5, 1605, when the man guarding the gunpowder, a reckless convert named Guy Fawkes, was captured and arrested. He was hanged; the plot fizzled.

Nov. 5, Guy Fawkes’ Day, became a great celebration in England, and so it remains. During the penal periods, bands of revelers would put on masks and visit local Catholics in the dead of night, demanding beer and cakes for their celebration: trick or treat!

Guy Fawkes’ Day arrived in the American colonies with the first English settlers. But, by the time of the American Revolution, old King James and Guy Fawkes had pretty much been forgotten. Trick or treat, though, was too much fun to give up, so eventually it moved to Oct. 31, the day of the Irish-French masquerade. And in America, trick or treat wasn’t limited to Catholics.

The mixture of various immigrant traditions we know as Halloween had become a fixture in the United States by the early 1800s. To this day, it remains unknown in Europe, even in the countries from which some of the customs originated.

But what about witches? Well, they are one of the last additions. The greeting card industry added them in the late 1800s. Halloween was already “ghoulish,” so why not give witches a place on greeting cards? The Halloween card failed (although it has seen a recent resurgence in popularity), but the witches stayed. So, too, in the late 1800s, ill-informed folklorists introduced the jack-o’-lantern. They thought that Halloween was druidic and pagan in origin. Lamps made from turnips (not pumpkins) had been part of ancient Celtic harvest festivals, so they were translated to the American Halloween celebration.

The next time someone claims that Halloween is a cruel trick to lure your children into devil worship, I suggest you tell them the real origin of All Hallows Even and invite them to discover its Christian significance, along with the two greater and more important Catholic festivals that follow it.

--Father Augustine Thompson, O.P., is an associate professor in the Religious Studies Department at the University of Virginia.

[Caladan 19]

Cool article. Still not the case that Halloween = All Saint's Day. One I get candy, the other I have to go to church.

[doodlebug 3]

Cool article. Still not the case that Halloween = All Saint's Day. One I get candy, the other I have to go to church.

I never said the two were the same. They are most definitely related though.

[Henia 11]

Happy Halloween to everyone! Snaps I am missing seeing all the little kiddies with their cool costumes.

Well still have not uploaded my Sahara pics..inchallah by the end of this week.

Husband has tomorrow off cos of a national holiday...so we will be going shopping, cooking some food together and looking at this apartment he found. I am praying it is nice one...it is a bit expensive but in a great area and is particularly new. The house is here is basically sold, just waiting for him to move on out...

So few days left in Algerie...husband as i said off tomorrow, working Thursday, then off again Friday and Saturday...working again Sunday and Monday early AM I am leaving. These last 1,5 week has been great esp with the stress of Ramadan, Eid and all the people coming uninvited is gone. Elhamdullah we actually had some alone time and worked through many of our *issues*...well not really issues but more of lack of communication. I love this man so much... he is such a sweety! So patient and understanding with me...never getting mad at my stupid quirks and baggage. Ya Allah how will i make it through the next months?

There were some bombs that went off in Rouiba, city not too far from the capital...and I was literally going crazy all day worrying on my husband. His phone was off for some reason and much of the transport was slow. He got home at 8pm...not his usual 4.30pm... I realised that even with all my pride, ego and false need to be so-independent ... I cannot live without this man...I have tried and tried for the past 3 years... but I believe it was written for us to be together. Ya Allah I need to stop now..getting all mushy!

Anywho I will try to post some pics before I leave, but I donnot then I will after I arrive in the states...

JPaula: I am replying to your PM as I know more!

As for everyone else who got approval before Ramadan...when are your men arriving already? We need to do the happy dance!

[Jenn! 918]

Well, my test did not go as well as I had hoped, at least I don't think so. I won't know the results for a while, so I think it's best to just put it out of my mind for now. If I fail, I'll just take it again - woohoo!

I've been trying to catch up with all the activity in here. I think if I read the words "gross", "despicable", or "offended" one more time I'm gonna puke!