I-129F Denied

[QueenE 174]

Again sorry for being captain obivious but you wasted too much energy on this one, especially after waiting 7 months. Did you expect them to respond with a oh ya your right, how dare we overstep. Next time just send them what they want. Then you argue with them afterwards.

To all who are interested the below is my reply to the USCIS's RFE which was titled "Age Requirement". Their reply to the below letter was a denial.

Yes, maybe I pissed them off.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To whom it may concern,

We received a Notice of Action requesting evidence of compliance to foreign laws (Age Requirement).

It appears that there is a misunderstanding. We are not marrying in the Philippines, but in the United States and our marriage will be compliant to all laws in every jurisdiction in the United States. Specifically, Ms. XXXXXXXX is an adult so we are confounded as to this just-received requirement (we filed 7 months ago) by the United States government for the consent of her two parents for us to marry in the U.S. -- citing Philippine family law statutes and requiring the document to be filed in the Philippines!

Among the phrases in the request for evidence letter:

- "According to the Family Code of the Philippines..."

- "Please provide a local civil registered parental consent stating that the beneficiary is free to marry according to Philippines laws."

- "If they do not obtain parental advice the marriage license shall not be issued..." Note: We are not marrying in the Philippines.

Further, in the Philippine Family Law Statute cited in Form I-797E (EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 209, THE FAMILY CODE OF THE PHILIPPINES July 6, 1987) Art. 20 states, "The license shall be valid in any part of the Philippines for a period of one hundred twenty days from the date of issue..." So why would this be required for our marriage in the United States? Are there any domestic jurisdictions that would accept a Philippine marriage license?

Art. 28 of the above statute would seem to allow us to marry without a Philippine marriage license that the RFE seems to be demanding; "If the residence of either party is so located that there is no means of transportation to enable such party to appear personally before the local civil registrar, the marriage may be solemnized without necessity of a marriage license."

Another inconsistency is divorce, which is illegal in the Philippines. How does the USCIS reconcile this if we are required to adhere to both foreign and domestic laws?

Dowry, which is often compared to slavery, is legal in Uganda (it was upheld by their Supreme Court in 2010). Does the USCIS require dowry or bride price for approval of an I-129F for a Ugandan fiancée? And there are many countries that legalize polygamy. Does the USCIS allow multiple fiancées per petition from these countries?

We seem to have fully complied with the Form I-129F. In fact the instructions for the form (see attached) instruct; "If either of you is of an age that requires special consent or permission for you to marry in the jurisdiction where your marriage will occur, give proof of that consent or permission".

Our jurisdiction, anywhere in the United States, does not require parental consent yet it appears that this is being required of us.

[thinkerlove0212 158]

you either really messed up the initial 129f packet and Bio of her or really ticked them off with any evidence. Looks like USCIS did their job and good for all.

[robert_j 0]

I think you over reacted and got denied simply because you didn't/couldn't supply the info they were seeking.

What they were demanding exceeded their statutory authority. In other words, it was unlawful.

Their authority is granted by Congress under Title 8 of the United States Code. They can't simply make stuff up and then deny citizens because they want to. If a petitioner fully complies with all the applicable statutes then the petition must be granted.

And remember, the request from the CSC was different from the instructions on the Form I-129F.

[robert_j 0]

you either really messed up the initial 129f packet and Bio of her or really ticked them off with any evidence. Looks like USCIS did their job and good for all.

Of course we're wondering what else it could be. We were very diligent with our petition. We have not yet received the official letter so the reason for the denial could be something other than what we're now discussing... But if the reason is something different then I would have expected a letter asking for the missing and/or insufficient documents. The only letter we received requesting additional evidence was this RFE demanding compliance to Philippines marriage laws (and which is contrary to their own published guidance).

[VanessaTony 3,567]

Yes.

But they were requiring us to comply with laws of a foreign government. Further, as I cited in the response, the Philippines law to which they required us to comply itself has an exemption under which we qualified. So this is what happens, that now we're making legal arguments in the United States about a Philippines law.

No no. See here's the thing. one of the requirements of the visa is being "free to marry". In the Philippines you need to provide a CENOMAR which shows that they're single. Even if they divorced in another country, they wouldn't be divorced in the Philippines. Which means they're NOT "free to marry" by Philippine law. Which makes them ineligible for a visa.

The same can be said of EVERY country, they have their own laws. You can think it's unfair but you're asking for permission to bring her here, that includes permission from her government.

There is another country (Vietnam I think) that WILL NOT permit it's citizens to marry USC's who are older than a certain age, and who don't earn over a certain amount (a HIGH amount too). Other countries require their permission to leave the country, even just for visits.

In regards to your particular RFE, by Philippine law she is NOT free to marry you (same as if she wasn't actually divorced in her country). That means she CANNOT leave the country to marry you without her first fulfilling the requirements for someone of her age for her country.

You might not think it's fair, but it is the law of her country.

[QueenE 174]

So you really think they just asked you for parental consent just to pick on you?

What they were demanding exceeded their statutory authority. In other words, it was unlawful.

Their authority is granted by Congress under Title 8 of the United States Code. They can't simply make stuff up and then deny citizens because they want to. If a petitioner fully complies with all the applicable statutes then the petition must be granted.

And remember, the request from the CSC was different from the instructions on the Form I-129F.

[QueenE 174]

Exactly! And American laws cannot trump over laws of other countries.

No no. See here's the thing. one of the requirements of the visa is being "free to marry". In the Philippines you need to provide a CENOMAR which shows that they're single. Even if they divorced in another country, they wouldn't be divorced in the Philippines. Which means they're NOT "free to marry" by Philippine law. Which makes them ineligible for a visa.

The same can be said of EVERY country, they have their own laws. You can think it's unfair but you're asking for permission to bring her here, that includes permission from her government.

There is another country (Vietnam I think) that WILL NOT permit it's citizens to marry USC's who are older than a certain age, and who don't earn over a certain amount (a HIGH amount too). Other countries require their permission to leave the country, even just for visits.

In regards to your particular RFE, by Philippine law she is NOT free to marry you (same as if she wasn't actually divorced in her country). That means she CANNOT leave the country to marry you without her first fulfilling the requirements for someone of her age for her country.

You might not think it's fair, but it is the law of her country.

[NY_BX 397]

What they were demanding exceeded their statutory authority. In other words, it was unlawful.

Their authority is granted by Congress under Title 8 of the United States Code. They can't simply make stuff up and then deny citizens because they want to. If a petitioner fully complies with all the applicable statutes then the petition must be granted.

And remember, the request from the CSC was different from the instructions on the Form I-129F.

No. This is not a right, but a privilege. They aren't asking a USC to comply with foreign laws. They're asking a USC to comply with the requirements so they can grant a visa to a foreigner. Those are 2 different things. To approve a petition you must cover the eligibility requirements. Something triggered- within the petition- for them to send an RFE. That probably is that she isn't free to marry you. In her country she needs consent at her age. No consent= no marriage.

Let me give you another example: in MENA countries some people marry via Islam. In the US- unless the imam is a certified minister to sign the marriage certificate- it isn't a legal marriage. However, if you file a fiance(e) petition for someone you married under Islam in any other country, your petition may be denied because you technically are married under that country's law. It is highly advised not to even show engagement pictures that may look like a wedding. We've seen this here one-too-many times. Some have been successful, others haven't.

I don't understand, for the life of me, why argue and not send the requested letter. I agree with another poster: give them what they want, then complain. Pick and choose your battles. Now, you have to start all over again.

Good luck.

Edited October 16, 2012 by NY_BX

[VanessaTony 3,567]

And remember, the request from the CSC was different from the instructions on the Form I-129F.

No the request from CSC was NOT different to the instructions, it just gave you country specific instructions. It would be impossible to list all the countries individual requirements, and instead they RFE'd you for something your fiancee should have known was a requirement in her country to marry for her age (not just you as an American, anyone).

You failed to comply with the instruction "prove you are free to marry". You did not prove she was "free to marry you" because to prove that you need to provide a letter from her family giving you permission.

[robert_j 0]

No no. See here's the thing. one of the requirements of the visa is being "free to marry". In the Philippines you need to provide a CENOMAR which shows that they're single. Even if they divorced in another country, they wouldn't be divorced in the Philippines. Which means they're NOT "free to marry" by Philippine law. Which makes them ineligible for a visa.

I think that this might be the answer.

I'll research it and wait for the official letter.

Thanks to everyone who helped!!

I'll provide updates as warranted.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

I think that this might be the answer.

I'll research it and wait for the official letter.

Thanks to everyone who helped!!

I'll provide updates as warranted.

Are you able to get a letter from her parents giving permission?

[robert_j 0]

Are you able to get a letter from her parents giving permission?

From one. We'll work him a bit.

:-))

So now I guess we need to start over. Wonderful.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

From one. We'll work him a bit.

:-))

So now I guess we need to start over. Wonderful.

Yeah and the waiting time all over again too

[robert_j 0]

Re: "free to marry"

I'm now not as confident that this is the correct answer...

For example if a Filipina has married before then they can never obtain a I-129F visa because divorce is illegal in the Philippines. They can never be "free to marry" in their native country. But we know this isn't the case.

[Bumbero 130]

Re: "free to marry"

I'm now not as confident that this is the correct answer...

For example if a Filipina has married before then they can never obtain a I-129F visa because divorce is illegal in the Philippines. They can never be "free to marry" in their native country. But we know this isn't the case.

So, she was married before? Divorce IS illegal in the Philippines and annulments are rare and hard to obtain. If she was married, this is probably the reason for denial, not the age requirement/consent to marry from her parents.

From what I understand, the USCIS has a lot of form letters it can send out for RFEs. The topic of the form letter you received may have said "Age Requirement" BUT the information in the request should have been obtained.

If there is confusion on an RFE, can the USCIS be contacted for clarification?