More kids with second marriage?

[morocco4ever 63]

From what I have seen that isn't the case. I have seen a man there that I would never have given a second glance to get money out of these women, and since he started less than a year ago he has had several women fly out to meet him. He thoroughly disgusts me.

It may not be what you have seen, but compared to the packed cyber cafes, few men are finding success if you look at the visa numbers. I don't think a man whose intention is fraud is holding back to find a younger woman once he has an older one because he is worried about the consulate. Once has the golden ticket, he is probably going to take his chances. Besides, a good number of 15+, 20+ and even a few 30+ age difference couples have been approved.

For 2005

Morocco

194 K1 visas

190 K3 visas

Egypt

171 K1 visas

215 K3 visas

Jordan

97 K1 visas

61 K3 visas

If there intention is to come to the US you would assume they wouldn't take chances. Once denied on fraud then its the end of the line for them to come to the US.

[Jenn! 918]

From what I have seen that isn't the case. I have seen a man there that I would never have given a second glance to get money out of these women, and since he started less than a year ago he has had several women fly out to meet him. He thoroughly disgusts me.

It may not be what you have seen, but compared to the packed cyber cafes, few men are finding success if you look at the visa numbers. I don't think a man whose intention is fraud is holding back to find a younger woman once he has an older one because he is worried about the consulate. Once has the golden ticket, he is probably going to take his chances. Besides, a good number of 15+, 20+ and even a few 30+ age difference couples have been approved.

For 2005

Morocco

194 K1 visas

190 K3 visas

Egypt

171 K1 visas

215 K3 visas

Jordan

97 K1 visas

61 K3 visas

These are interesting figures. I would have thought that they would be much higher.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Where did these statistics come from?

[Bosco 1]

If there intention is to come to the US you would assume they wouldn't take chances. Once denied on fraud then its the end of the line for them to come to the US.

This reasoning really doesn't make sense to me. Moroccans die every year trying to cross the water to Spain. There are obviously Moroccans willing to take whatever chance they can, however risky. Taking the chance at the consulate with an older woman is not a high risk, especially if you look at how many have been approved.

Oh, she is 10 years older than me and the consulate may not like that, so instead I will try waiting another 1, 2 years (or maybe never) to get someone closer to my age since that increases my odds? Not likely, IMO.

Where did these statistics come from?

The USCIS website. They have statistics for just about everything.

Edited October 29, 2006 by Bosco

[honeyblonde 0]

As a sociologist, I don't take studies to heart. They can and are often interpreted to support stereotypes that maintain a certain prefered status quo. Sorry, but this is true. It all depends on whose funding the study and on who and how you ask the questions.

Isn't that the truth! I was in about my 3rd Economics class when I realized the freaking professor who is one of the tops in his field was controlling the statistics of our education. Certain people in the class were his favorites and the rest got almost no help on their research so of course they didn't get the As. I definitely didn't get an A because I dared to disagree with him about why I got the results I got in my research. If he's controlling the results like that, I'm sure the rest of his huge list of publications is equally biased. When I took statistics the professor told us that you can get statistics to support any point you want to make, it all depends on what variables you select and how big your scope is and where you choose to get your data.

or may plan on having them with another woman once the green card comes. I have seen the last happen more than once.

I hate to see when that happens. I don't know much about Islam, but for the men that are practicing their faith, if I see that they are willing to use a woman for the sole purpose of a green card, and fully intends to move on once he gets it, then I can't see how he can face Allah on a daily basis through prayer. I realize that in Islam, if a person has done bad things all of his life, and by a single act of kindness he can wipe his slate clean. BUT....how many of these men think they will go ahead and use the woman, once he is done he will do something good and he will be forgiven? I just can't believe that Allah doesn't see it, and forgiveness won't be so simple for something so sinister.

Okay...enough ranting!

I can't answer for all of them, but my ex called me a week or two ago to brag that his young Moroccan wife that he married about 3 years after we split up (when she was 17) just gave birth to his first daughter. I know how he deals with it - he lies to himself. He still won't admit he used me for a green card and claims he didn't understand me when I told him I couldn't (without surgery) have any more kids. He seems to just convince himself that the truth is different from what it is whenever it isn't in keeping with his religious beliefs.

[Veiled Princess 1]

he lies to himself. He still won't admit he used me for a green card

If he doesn't admit it even to himself then can it really be said that it was his intention?

To use someone for something wouldn't that have to be the users intention?

[morocco4ever 63]

he lies to himself. He still won't admit he used me for a green card

If he doesn't admit it even to himself then can it really be said that it was his intention?

To use someone for something wouldn't that have to be the users intention?

Its hard to say for sure what his intentions truly were, some people live in a world that they make up themselves to justify their actions.

My husbands 2nd interview should be soon. If he gets the visa it will be the IR1. This gives him all of the leeway to do as he pleases. He could actually fly to his sisters house in Texas and screw me over big time. Sooooo....if this is what he does I will come back and tell you all....YES HE WAS USING ME FOR A GREEN CARD.

I'm not worried, I know his true intentions.

[honeyblonde 0]

I don't think we can really dispute that the young, never married virgin is still highly valued.

By whom?

This discussion only serves to prove how little women value themselves. A younger, never married virgin is not highly prized by me or most other women, but to a lot of men, perhaps. Why is it that we automatically calculate the innate worth a woman by what some men prefer and let it go at that? There is a resignation inherent in many comments that what men define as desirable by some men is what women define themselves by. That is sad to me and goes to show that discussions about what life for women is like in the Third World has only a small degree of separation by how women in more "progressive" societies still think of themselves, no matter how advanced their opportunity for upward mobility.

Very well stated.

If there intention is to come to the US you would assume they wouldn't take chances. Once denied on fraud then its the end of the line for them to come to the US.

I can e-mail you scripts from conversations that made it perfectly clear that very intelligent young men looking for green cards feel that age is not that big of a deal. Abdel and I were reading over one just now that I had 3 days after we met. It is really special to us because I told the guy that I had recently met another Moroccan that I really liked and he was probably too late. Of course that other Moroccan was Abdel. I blocked that guy after the conversation, but he was 30 (I was 42) quite handsome, had a good job, asked me to marry him in the first conversation, promised to love me forever even if I couldn't have kids, gave me his home and cell phone numbers, his home address, and his e-mail address. Yes, they do take chances because no matter how good they seem to have it there in our opinions, or how great their options seem, like Rebecca said, they don't want to wait to find someone else. The first woman that will talk to them is going to be their target, regardless of how obvious it is to everyone but her that she is a target.

he lies to himself. He still won't admit he used me for a green card

If he doesn't admit it even to himself then can it really be said that it was his intention?

To use someone for something wouldn't that have to be the users intention?

Sometimes things are obvious to everyone around us but us. When that happens, it means we're lying to ourselves. We can convince ourselves that our intentions are something other than what they are when that is necessary to keep a clear conscience.

[Bosco 1]

I don't think we can really dispute that the young, never married virgin is still highly valued.

By whom?

This discussion only serves to prove how little women value themselves. A younger, never married virgin is not highly prized by me or most other women, but to a lot of men, perhaps. Why is it that we automatically calculate the innate worth a woman by what some men prefer and let it go at that? There is a resignation inherent in many comments that what men define as desirable by some men is what women define themselves by. That is sad to me and goes to show that discussions about what life for women is like in the Third World has only a small degree of separation by how women in more "progressive" societies still think of themselves, no matter how advanced their opportunity for upward mobility.

I don't know what women here are defining themselves that way or saying this is how they determine their own worth or how they think of themselves. I don't think anyone is calculating a woman's worth by these standards but saying it would be foolish to pretend that these things don't exist in Morocco (and other countries) and this is where the men we are marrying are from.

I definitely think it is very important to think about these things before plunging into a marriage with someone from a different country/culture. It doesn't mean this is how I have come to judge myself, and I certainly don't. However, I often try to take into consideration the society my husband grew up in, to better understand the things he says, he does, the significance of many of his gestures, etc. Things that are rude there are not necessarily rude here, some things that may seem controlling there could be signs of great respect, etc. How can we dismiss the things we grew up with in evaluating our relationships and their treatment of us just because those things are different? Taking those things into consideration is a long way off from adopting them ourselves, and I would argue considering and understanding those things are an essential part of making marriage work.

[morocco4ever 63]

If there intention is to come to the US you would assume they wouldn't take chances. Once denied on fraud then its the end of the line for them to come to the US.

I can e-mail you scripts from conversations that made it perfectly clear that very intelligent young men looking for green cards feel that age is not that big of a deal. Abdel and I were reading over one just now that I had 3 days after we met. It is really special to us because I told the guy that I had recently met another Moroccan that I really liked and he was probably too late. Of course that other Moroccan was Abdel. I blocked that guy after the conversation, but he was 30 (I was 42) quite handsome, had a good job, asked me to marry him in the first conversation, promised to love me forever even if I couldn't have kids, gave me his home and cell phone numbers, his home address, and his e-mail address. Yes, they do take chances because no matter how good they seem to have it there in our opinions, or how great their options seem, like Rebecca said, they don't want to wait to find someone else. The first woman that will talk to them is going to be their target, regardless of how obvious it is to everyone but her that she is a target.

If this is the norm then I stand corrected. But it seems a little odd that they aren't aware of the fact that the older woman/younger men situation is getting scrutinized. One little slip and the US is off limits forever. Its pretty obvious that Morocco sends as many of these petitions back as they possibly can without reviewing their evidence. Its obvious that the consulate doesn't want to see the evidence, they prefer the proof of time. I see why they are doing it that way, it just isn't fair to those of us in real relationships.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I don't think we can really dispute that the young, never married virgin is still highly valued.

By whom?

This discussion only serves to prove how little women value themselves. A younger, never married virgin is not highly prized by me or most other women, but to a lot of men, perhaps. Why is it that we automatically calculate the innate worth a woman by what some men prefer and let it go at that? There is a resignation inherent in many comments that what men define as desirable by some men is what women define themselves by. That is sad to me and goes to show that discussions about what life for women is like in the Third World has only a small degree of separation by how women in more "progressive" societies still think of themselves, no matter how advanced their opportunity for upward mobility.

I don't know what women here are defining themselves that way or saying this is how they determine their own worth or how they think of themselves. I don't think anyone is calculating a woman's worth by these standards but saying it would be foolish to pretend that these things don't exist in Morocco (and other countries) and this is where the men we are marrying are from.

I definitely think it is very important to think about these things before plunging into a marriage with someone from a different country/culture. It doesn't mean this is how I have come to judge myself, and I certainly don't. However, I often try to take into consideration the society my husband grew up in, to better understand the things he says, he does, the significance of many of his gestures, etc. Things that are rude there are not necessarily rude here, some things that may seem controlling there could be signs of great respect, etc. How can we dismiss the things we grew up with in evaluating our relationships and their treatment of us just because those things are different? Taking those things into consideration is a long way off from adopting them ourselves, and I would argue considering and understanding those things are an essential part of making marriage work.

I would have to disagree that there are no women here defining themselves and others by a calculation of male preferences. Conversation after conversation presents evidence of that, and this conversation is merely one of them. I also don't believe that anyone is pretending that such equations do not exist, nor that they such be unaware of them. If I weren't aware of them, I couldn't offer a contrast and comparison of the comments as insight into the thinking of some here.

It is not merely a matter of taking anything into consideration; it's how you evaluate it. There is a noticable bias against older women/younger man relationships based on the predicate that males have certain preferences and women who do not live up to them are most likely to be snookered. There is little consideration given to the female's preferences and whether the male lives up to them. In other words, many values are being measured - the value of women by age and fertility, the values between cultures, and the intentions of men based on those assumed values.

Sorry to say, but time and time again, it is women who are being judged on the basis of whether they have sufficient value. Even as we judge the man's motives, we are still saying that the suspicion of his motives rises as the value of the woman falls. I am saying that not only should we be aware of all those elements that you raise, but of the way we evaluate and interpret them.

BTW, Rebecca, you are a remarkable woman, imo, and I do not mean this as a criticism of you, but suggest it as an exercise for us all.

Edited October 29, 2006 by szsz

[honeyblonde 0]

That was over a year and a half ago so maybe things are different over there now. Also, you are reading statistics on VJ that they may not be reading. For every person who comes here and posts a timeline, there are anywhere from 10 to 1000 (I'm guessing here) who do not post their experiences, so while we are seeing what seems like high numbers of returns (and actually the percentage isn't terribly high), they are only hearing the success stories of those who succeed. I'm sure the ones who don't aren't out advertising their failures to their buddies, but the ones that succeed are.

I've also noticed that those who go somewhere else to live don't usually seem to tell family back home about how hard it is, only send gifts and money and make things appear to be all wonderful. That only would seem to enhance the image of life here as something other than what it is.

Rebecca, I do agree that understanding your spouse's culture is important, but not everyone in a country shares the same viewpoints. I saw a huge gap between the Morocco I saw when I was married to Mustapha and the Morocco I saw when I was married to Abdel. Every family is going to be unique, even in the same country and culture. It is impossible to generalize and say "This is a value that is important to all families in this culture, because for many families it just isn't true."

[frndly1 1]

I really dont want to start over mine son will be 18 in 2 weeks and I am in my 40s. But if its the LORDs will however if it doesnt happen before I turn 44, it will never happen and I will make sure of that.

Hello all, happy Saturday.

I've been thinking for a long time about this subject and I see that there are other people here who must have thought about it as well.

I have a son from my first marriage and he'll be 12 next month.

His father and I share custody so we each have him about half the time.

I know that it's common or expected for married women in the middle east and surrounding areas to start having kids once they get married. At least, that's my impression.

However, I'm in my mid-late 30's at this point, and with a 12 year old, I'm really not that eager to start the child rearing process all over again.

My fiance and I have talked about this ALOT and have come to a decision, however I know that no matter what we decide, the final decision is up to Allah.

Anyways, it seems that there are several other women around here who are getting remarried who already have kids and I'm wondering how you feel about having more kids with a second marriage?

Thanks to anyone willing to share their thoughts on this.

[Bosco 1]

I would have to disagree that there are no women here defining themselves and others by a calculation of male preferences. Conversation after conversation presents evidence of that, and this conversation is merely one of them. I also don't believe that anyone is pretending that such equations do not exist, nor that they such be unaware of them. If I weren't aware of them, I couldn't offer a contrast and comparison of the comments as insight into the thinking of some here.

You are right. I don't think it is prevalent but after I posted, I did think of a few that probably do feel this way.

It is not merely a matter of taking anything into consideration; it's how you evaluate it. There is a noticable bias against older women/younger man relationships based on the predicate that males have certain preferences and women who do not live up to them are most likely to be snookered. There is little consideration given to the female's preferences and whether the male lives up to them. In other words, many values are being measured - the value of women by age and fertility, the values between cultures, and the intentions of men based on those assumed values.

Sorry to say, but time and time again, it is women who are being judged on the basis of whether they have sufficient value. Even as we judge the man's motives, we are still saying that the suspicion of his motives rises as the value of the woman falls. I am saying that not only should we be aware of all those elements that you raise, but of the way we evaluate and interpret them.

I think there is no consideration given to the female's preferences because the discussions here are often framed around fraud and the almighty greencard and rarely expand into anything more comprehensive (which would be an interesting, IMO). When discussions have ventured off into "why we love them" it is usually of a very lovey-dovey nature. I recall most descriptions relating how the men make the women feel, rather than delving into attributes/values/character etc. Some of the things that I am most attracted to in my husband are directly connected to the cultural differences, that while not impossible to find in men here, are less common. However, I have to say I think my husband is rather remarkable for Morocco too

BTW, Rebecca, you are a remarkable woman, imo, and I do not mean this as a criticism of you, but suggest it as an exercise for us all.

Thank you for the compliment. I think you are remarkable as well.

[Bosco 1]

Its hard to say for sure what his intentions truly were, some people live in a world that they make up themselves to justify their actions.

My husbands 2nd interview should be soon. If he gets the visa it will be the IR1. This gives him all of the leeway to do as he pleases. He could actually fly to his sisters house in Texas and screw me over big time. Sooooo....if this is what he does I will come back and tell you all....YES HE WAS USING ME FOR A GREEN CARD.

I'm not worried, I know his true intentions.

Not speaking to your case at all, but I think while we say "green card", it isn't always about the green card. My grandparents, mother and aunt all lived in the Middle East for a good portion of their lives. Growing up, I knew a fair amount of American/Arab couples (obviously not meeting on the net in those days). Usually, it was a woman working abroad, or the man was here on a temporary visa. Most often, the fraud cases involved the man leaving when he was financially prepared and this often happened years after the green card. If the man is sending money home, saving for a business, etc. it is much easier to do if he has someone splitting the bills (and often cooking and cleaning for him). It was in the cases where the woman didn't work that he left once his status here was secured. Many of the women were blindsided because from their perspective, everything was fine. I also have seen a decent number of successful marriages, but it always seems to me it requires a great deal of change on the part of the woman.