More kids with second marriage?

[morocco4ever 63]

This is a good question, I am interested to see how people answer.

I think you are right that it is expected for newlyweds to start having kids soon after they are married. I think generally speaking it would be abnormal for a man to marry a woman who is not capable of having kids as family is so highly valued in the ME/NA. This is something I wonder about when we see younger men marrying women who are 15 or 20 years older than the man. I know not everyone in these countries wants kids but it is pretty much expected by the families in most places.

Good question!

I don't get it. Why would anyone assume that a woman that is 15 or 20 years older than her husband is incapable of getting pregnant? Women all over are getting pregnant at the age of 60 and older. What, does menopause start at 35 now?

Its common knowledge here that I am older than my husband. I have also mentioned that I recently had my tubes untied. Now do you think I would be stupid enough to go through all of that and pay almost $6000.00 if I wasn't still fertile?

Ok let me rephrase it without saying how many years older. I have wondered about this when I see young men who marry women who can't have kids.

I have a right to ask a question. and state what I know, what I have been told, and taught.

If it upsets you I'm sorry, I didn't mean for anyone to take it personally.

I think it's great that you are had them untied and I think that is a good example of an Arab man wanting children, right?

I didn't take it offensively, I am just amused how younger (not necessarily you Sarah) women assume that older women are infertile. People go through menopause at many different ages, some young, some old, but to assume that everyone over a specific age shows that they really haven't done their research. Of course why would they need to at their age, it isn't a concern of theirs, I am aware of that.

Although my husband is one of the more typical arab men that does want children, and I do agree the majority do. I would never say they are all that way. Their families might push it, but some men just aren't into the baby thing. Its all very personal.

Look at it this way, I absolutely don't want any pets of any kind. End of story. Now lets say I meet a man that doesn't want pets either, but he comes from a family that absolutely adore their pets, and can't understand those of us who just aren't into that thing. They might have a misguided idea that a pet is exactly what they need to make our house complete, but we are just plain happy the way we are.

There are some that will feel like me, how can you compare pets to children, but there are people that truly feel their pets are a part of their family...those people will be able to understand the point I am trying to make.

I do find the question interesting though. What I would like to contribute is that my youngest was really concerned that if I do have a baby I will forget all about my existing family once I start a new one.

Silly girl...my kids are my kids, that will never change!

[Donna A 4]

well at age 41 i still want more kids but as u know my time clock is running out. hassan says he wants more but he still dont want me to go off the pill yet. i think he has fears of down syndrom and other birth defects because when he was in saudi arabia his patients were disabled people and he hated that. it was very sad for him and no life for anyone.

secondly his wife left him when his daughter was six weeks old and i think thats another fear for him. he hated the fact his daughter grew up without a father.

[Together4ever 1]

This is a good question, I am interested to see how people answer.

I think you are right that it is expected for newlyweds to start having kids soon after they are married. I think generally speaking it would be abnormal for a man to marry a woman who is not capable of having kids as family is so highly valued in the ME/NA. This is something I wonder about when we see younger men marrying women who are 15 or 20 years older than the man. I know not everyone in these countries wants kids but it is pretty much expected by the families in most places.

Good question!

I don't get it. Why would anyone assume that a woman that is 15 or 20 years older than her husband is incapable of getting pregnant? Women all over are getting pregnant at the age of 60 and older. What, does menopause start at 35 now?

Its common knowledge here that I am older than my husband. I have also mentioned that I recently had my tubes untied. Now do you think I would be stupid enough to go through all of that and pay almost $6000.00 if I wasn't still fertile?

Ok let me rephrase it without saying how many years older. I have wondered about this when I see young men who marry women who can't have kids.

I have a right to ask a question. and state what I know, what I have been told, and taught.

If it upsets you I'm sorry, I didn't mean for anyone to take it personally.

I think it's great that you are had them untied and I think that is a good example of an Arab man wanting children, right?

I didn't take it offensively, I am just amused how younger (not necessarily you Sarah) women assume that older women are infertile. People go through menopause at many different ages, some young, some old, but to assume that everyone over a specific age shows that they really haven't done their research. Of course why would they need to at their age, it isn't a concern of theirs, I am aware of that.

Although my husband is one of the more typical arab men that does want children, and I do agree the majority do. I would never say they are all that way. Their families might push it, but some men just aren't into the baby thing. Its all very personal.

Look at it this way, I absolutely don't want any pets of any kind. End of story. Now lets say I meet a man that doesn't want pets either, but he comes from a family that absolutely adore their pets, and can't understand those of us who just aren't into that thing. They might have a misguided idea that a pet is exactly what they need to make our house complete, but we are just plain happy the way we are.

There are some that will feel like me, how can you compare pets to children, but there are people that truly feel their pets are a part of their family...those people will be able to understand the point I am trying to make.

I do find the question interesting though. What I would like to contribute is that my youngest was really concerned that if I do have a baby I will forget all about my existing family once I start a new one.

Silly girl...my kids are my kids, that will never change!

My grandmother was in her early 50s when she had her last child.

[~Jess~ 0]

i have a son from my first marriage.....he lives with his father currently but knows george and i love him.

of course george and i want to have children of our own, George is 37yrs old, i am only 23. we have been 'trying' since we got married with no luck now for a little over a year.......we shall see what happens Inshallah we will be blessed with our own babies.

[honeyblonde 0]

yes but don't forget the other factors involved in chosing a woman to marry like love, attraction, economics etc...

My husband never expected to even be able to marry, much less get to have children. At 38, as a poor man, he didn't see either of those opportunities in his future. He accepted that to have a wife and no kids was better than no wife and no kids. Even now that we've agreed to try after I graduate, he still isn't so sure he wants kids at our age. I'll be 47 then and he'll be 42. He really wants to start trying now, but I refuse until I am close enough to graduation that I can graduate before the baby is born. This time if I have a baby I want to be able to enjoy it. Work takes enough of my time, I don't want work and school and a baby.

A lot of people tell us just to wait and have grandkids, but my sons don't show any signs of giving us those soon. My oldest will probably never marry (can you marry a video game!?) and my youngest is too much of a party animal to settle down, even enough to do his schoolwork most of the time.

At first I was skeptical about having a baby so old, but a friend at work helped me with that. She's in her 50s and just sent me the pictures of her latest adventure - skydiving. She also owns her own Harley Davidson and has been riding it for years. When I mentioned kids to her, she told me about a friend of hers who has a 3 year old, and she's in her mid 50s. She had the baby when she was about 52 and it's perfectly normal. She loves to remind me that you don't stop living as you age, and even babies can be a part of that life.

[Bosco 1]

I don't think this is just a stereotype.

There was a study done in Morocco this past year. 97% of those surveyed felt it was the duty of the children to take care of their parents when they grow old. 65% considered their children a future source of social security. The idea that children are an investment in one's own future is still very prevalent.

Another study done by the Hassan II University of Mohammedia drew this conclusion after a survey of Moroccans: Marriage is highly valued and very much associated with procreation, so that marriage without children is almost unthinkable. This was conducted in the past year as well.

Jenn - as to why a man who holds these values would marry a woman unable to bear children... I think there are a few answers. It could be that he couldn't easily marry in his own country due to finances, etc., so this is a sacrifice he makes, it could be he loves her and is willing to forgo having children, he may not just want them, or may plan on having them with another woman once the green card comes. I have seen the last happen more than once.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

As a sociologist, I don't take studies to heart. They can and are often interpreted to support stereotypes that maintain a certain prefered status quo. Sorry, but this is true. It all depends on whose funding the study and on who and how you ask the questions.

There are many factors to consider - urban vs. rural, levels of education, traditionalists vs. modernists, generational factors, economics, acculturation, birth control methods, individual asperations for the future. My parents-in-law are illiterate, speaking only Berber and Arabic. They knew that they could not depend on paltry pensions to keep them afloat during their old age, so they had five children.

Their children, on the other hand, are better educated, economically advanced, speak several European languages and can read and write them all. One son has one daughter, another has a son and daughter, a daughter has a son and daughter. The other two, a daughter and my husband, could not care less about having children. While they will all pitch in to take care of their parents, as expected, they do not expect to lay that burden on their own children.

Some of us make several assumptions here that come clear in our language.

1. Some assume that MOST Arabs WANT children, rather than accepting the "insha'allah" of their lives, that sex can lead to procreation. Just because they have them doesn't mean they wanted them.

2. Some assume that men are always fertile, thus women are the cause for a lack of procreation.

3. Some assume that Arab cultures in this respect are different from American culture, that American parents don't care so much about grandchildren and couples don't care about having children as much as Arabs do.

Baloney!

4. Some assume that older men marrying younger women is a biological norm rather than a sociological norm based on an inbalance of power and control that is not invalidated in some societies by other social factors.

5. Some assume that they do not have an innate prejudice against couplings between older women and younger men that lead them to often make remarks that assume their prejudices are rooted in fact.

6. Some assume that older women cannot have more children, when, in fact, the ability to procreate varies greatly among women. Some never have the ability, some go thru menopause in their twenties and thirties. Some, not until their 50s. I'm 53 and still have regular menses, a normal FSH level and other factors that indicate that I could still reproduce. My grandmother was in her early 50s when she had her last child, too, and another relative with a much younger husband had her unexpected love child at 50 nearly three years ago.

There are other "givens" that are being tossed about as facts in this conversation, but I don't feel like typing much more. I only hope that it wil help to show you that stereotypes and one's one assumptions about their norms and the norms of other societies help to form your often subjective perspectives.

Edited October 29, 2006 by szsz

[morocco4ever 63]

or may plan on having them with another woman once the green card comes. I have seen the last happen more than once.

I hate to see when that happens. I don't know much about Islam, but for the men that are practicing their faith, if I see that they are willing to use a woman for the sole purpose of a green card, and fully intends to move on once he gets it, then I can't see how he can face Allah on a daily basis through prayer. I realize that in Islam, if a person has done bad things all of his life, and by a single act of kindness he can wipe his slate clean. BUT....how many of these men think they will go ahead and use the woman, once he is done he will do something good and he will be forgiven? I just can't believe that Allah doesn't see it, and forgiveness won't be so simple for something so sinister.

Okay...enough ranting!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

One more assumption that is taken as a "given" - that an ME/NA man who marries a young woman isn't using her, even if she can have kids.

[morocco4ever 63]

My husband and I had a conversation once. What if I was the one that left him, what would he do? He said that he would marry again, yes. And it would be with a woman that could bear him children, but he said he would never let love be a part of it. He said that if I left him he could never open his heart to love again. He also said he would always wait for the day I returned to him. Of course, if he was married with children I would never return to him. A huge pet peeve of mine, women that go after married men. I have seen it in the US, and I have seen my husbands ex try it. Okay....that was off topic, sorry.

Anyway...innteresting....using a younger woman.....

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Anyway...innteresting....using a younger woman.....

Seriously, what difference does age matter if you're being used, whether it's for a green card or children?

[Together4ever 1]

As a sociologist, I don't take studies to heart. They can and are often interpreted to support stereotypes that maintain a certain prefered status quo. Sorry, but this is true. It all depends on whose funding the study and on who and how you ask the questions.

There are many factors to consider - urban vs. rural, levels of education, traditionalists vs. modernists, generational factors, economics, acculturation, birth control methods, individual asperations for the future. My parents-in-law are illiterate, speaking only Berber and Arabic. They knew that they could not depend on paltry pensions to keep them afloat during their old age, so they had five children.

Their children, on the other hand, are better educated, economically advanced, speak several European languages and can read and write them all. One son has one daughter, another has a son and daughter, a daughter has a son and daughter. The other two, a daughter and my husband, could not care less about having children. While they will all pitch in to take care of their parents, as expected, they do not expect to lay that burden on their own children.

Some of us make several assumptions here that come clear in our language.

1. Some assume that MOST Arabs WANT children, rather than accepting the "insha'allah" of their lives, that sex can lead to procreation. Just because they have them doesn't mean they wanted them.

2. Some assume that men are always fertile, thus women are the cause for a lack of procreation.

3. Some assume that Arab cultures in this respect are different from American culture, that American parents don't care so much about grandchildren and couples don't care about having children as much as Arabs do.

Baloney!

4. Some assume that older men marrying younger women is a biological norm rather than a sociological norm based on an inbalance of power and control that is not invalidated in some societies by other social factors.

5. Some assume that they do not have an innate prejudice against couplings between older women and younger men that lead them to often make remarks that assume their prejudices are rooted in fact.

6. Some assume that older women cannot have more children, when, in fact, the ability to procreate varies greatly among women. Some never have the ability, some go thru menopause in their twenties and thirties. Some, not until their 50s. I'm 53 and still have regular menses, a normal FSH level and other factors that indicate that I could still reproduce. My grandmother was in her early 50s when she had her last child, too, and another relative with a much younger husband had her unexpected love child at 50 nearly three years ago.

There are other "givens" that are being tossed about as facts in this conversation, but I don't feel like typing much more. I only hope that it wil help to show you that stereotypes and one's one assumptions about their norms and the norms of other societies help to form your often subjective perspectives.

Very well stated.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I see lots of stuff between the lines when subjects that interject age come up on this board. One that I have been silent until now is the underlying assumption that older women are less valuable and desirable than younger women. Not only are they assumed to be lesser in men's eyes because of their diminished utility to men - inadequate or nil childbearing ability, elevation of the man's social and cultural status (not a trophy wife), etc., but there is an assumed competition between older women and younger women which younger women will win.

And if the older women obtains the "prize", a younger man who SHOULD want a younger woman, it is because of some deception and sin on his part - he is using her for a green card, for her money, etc. Younger women seem to assume they have some advantage over older women simply because they are younger and more valuable. Must this be true or is it a suprfciality that maintains social prejudices that remain unexamined? For me, I know my own self worth and that of the women, young and old, whom I am privileged to know. Otherwise, this patern of thought is really annoying and it is presented more often that not in our discussions.

Edited October 29, 2006 by szsz

[Jenn! 918]

One more assumption that is taken as a "given" - that an ME/NA man who marries a young woman isn't using her, even if she can have kids.

I don't see where anyone has taken that as a given.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

One more assumption that is taken as a "given" - that an ME/NA man who marries a young woman isn't using her, even if she can have kids.

I don't see where anyone has taken that as a given.

I do. It is a common assumption, Jenn, and I have addressed it in the post before yours. People are much quicker to jump to the conclusion that an older woman is being used by a younger man than to assume that a younger woman is being used by a man of comparable age.

Edited October 29, 2006 by szsz