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More kids with second marriage?

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Sure, there could be surprises. I'm going to bet though, that finding that a forty-seven year old woman has experienced no significant decline in fertility compared to her twenty-two year old self, is one of those findings we are probably unlikely to find overwhelming evidence to the contrary on.

The sample sizes are small, but that can be said of all research. Point is, best research we have points to thus-and-such facts, that are, I stress, not demographic studies, but biological factors. We don't have all the answers worked out, and probably some assumptions will turn out to be wrong.

But I don't think we'll see tons of women naturally conceiving children at 55 any time soon.

AOS

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Filed: 8/1/07

NOA1:9/7/07

Biometrics: 9/28/07

EAD/AP: 10/17/07

EAD card ordered again (who knows, maybe we got the two-fer deal): 10/23/-7

Transferred to CSC: 10/26/07

Approved: 11/21/07

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Filed: Other Country: Israel
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No one said anything about tons of 55 year old women conceiving. Please don't start being dismissive of the point, which is that science is clearly dependent upon skewed resources producing skewed conclusions, and due to that, much more is to be learned. Drawing conclusions about who is or who is not fertile and able to produce children is not merely conditional upon age nor gender.

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That wasn't the point at all. The point was when people are saying 'why should age matter if he wants a lot of kids, because menopause doesn't happen till I'm fifty', people should be aware that as far as science knows now, fertility begins to decline well before menopause. It doesn't draw conclusions about any one individual, but let me bet that I am more likely to get pregnant than my (dear, vibrant, active) 50-year-old mother.

There's tons of factors. Age and gender are pretty big ones, as older women have a harder time conceiving and men can't get pregnant, last I checked. (of course, I may just be trusting the data too much on that.) Doesn't mean a relationship isn't real, or that the woman isn't worthwhile.

I didn't realize that would be such a controversial point, as its received wisdom among most of the people I know, which includes a few people who have received fertility treatments and a couple of doctors.

AOS

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Filed: 8/1/07

NOA1:9/7/07

Biometrics: 9/28/07

EAD/AP: 10/17/07

EAD card ordered again (who knows, maybe we got the two-fer deal): 10/23/-7

Transferred to CSC: 10/26/07

Approved: 11/21/07

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That wasn't the point at all. The point was when people are saying 'why should age matter if he wants a lot of kids, because menopause doesn't happen till I'm fifty', people should be aware that as far as science knows now, fertility begins to decline well before menopause. It doesn't draw conclusions about any one individual, but let me bet that I am more likely to get pregnant than my (dear, vibrant, active) 50-year-old mother.

There's tons of factors. Age and gender are pretty big ones, as older women have a harder time conceiving and men can't get pregnant, last I checked. (of course, I may just be trusting the data too much on that.) Doesn't mean a relationship isn't real, or that the woman isn't worthwhile.

I didn't realize that would be such a controversial point, as its received wisdom among most of the people I know, which includes a few people who have received fertility treatments and a couple of doctors.

I didn't see anyone saying that age didn't matter, so that wasn't the point. What began the discussion is the repeated notion that younger men/older women relationships were abnormal because Arab men want women and responses discussing the use of the term "abnormal" and why that kind of thinking exists. From there, it eventually evolved into a discussion about fertility, but no one said age didn't matter nor that tons of 55 year old women will start conceiving.

I still hold that science is lacking in emprical evidence regarding female and male fertility, and that is based on the facts that research on female issues is a young science, cultural assumptions have clouded the issue and most conventional wisdom about the human body is drawn from research on men.

You can repeat the assertion that older women have more trouble conceiving, but the facts are that fewer older women try to conceive than younger women and younger women who try are increasingly having the same kinds of problems as those attributed to the meager numbers of older women making up the statistic. We don't know why, for sure. Since there is not a large enough pool of older women trying to conceive to provide conclusive evidence of what the possiblities are for the limits of female fertility, the newer research is being done on western women and they are among those whose reproduction in declining, for a multitude of reasons, is unlikely to provide any viable answers.

When I mentioned gender, I didn't do so assuming that men get pregnant. Gender is an issue because men have fertility issues as well, and they need to be considered. One area of research that is heating up with the advent of more older women/younger men pairs trying to conceive is the affect of the man's age on the ability to become pregnant; is there a difference when the husband isn't an old fart, as we are so used to older women being with? Only another area where there are more questions than answers.

Edited by szsz
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Filed: Citizen (pnd) Country: Morocco
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You know, I would love to be your guinea pig for this, but difficult to do considering my husband and I have only had one opportunity to try to get pregnant since I had the tubes untied in February.

Of course since I did have my tubes untied I guess it doesn't make me a perfect canditate since if I don't get pregnant it could be due to some blockage in my tubes.

My doctor is however a fertility specialist, and he pretty much concurs with Caladan. Of course the degree varies from one woman to the next, the bottom line is that I am not as fertile as I was in my 20's. This is why I go in every month to check my ovulation. Prior to the fertility drug my level was at 15.9. Ultimate is at 20. Although I have nothing to compare it to since I never needed to worry about my ovulation rate in my earlier years.

Purhaps studies are jaded, but I tend to think they are pretty accurate.

'Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO HOO, What a Ride'

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My doctor is however a fertility specialist, and he pretty much concurs with Caladan. Of course the degree varies from one woman to the next, the bottom line is that I am not as fertile as I was in my 20's. This is why I go in every month to check my ovulation. Prior to the fertility drug my level was at 15.9. Ultimate is at 20. Although I have nothing to compare it to since I never needed to worry about my ovulation rate in my earlier years.

Purhaps studies are jaded, but I tend to think they are pretty accurate.

I'm not sure why you or Caladan see what you see in responses that lead you to believe that I or anyone else is saying that there is no age difference, especially since I have said over and over that that is not what I am saying. Still, the fact remains that any fertility specialist uses the same minor samples, and the same limited empirical evidence that any other fertility researcher does, and, while they can only present to you what they have, it isn't enough to be conclusive, and that's why there is the disclaimer that degrees and ability differ from woman to woman, because they simply don't know all the factors, and so the science is sorely lacking. And since you do not know what your fertility levels were at a prior time, sis, it isn't a factor now. Untying your tubes and the complications that adds is more of a factor, and an individual one, at that. As I've said before, I have normal reproductive indicators at 53. Proves not a thing for someone else, nor does it even mean I could ever conceive again. Besides, some women are allergic to their man's sperm, so who knows what else may matter?

So, how can studies be accurate with so many holes and so small a sample over so little time bounded by wavering conventional wisdom? They can't; they are merely placeholders for what is known NOW.

Edited by szsz
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Oh, for crying out loud. I didn't make up the conversation. Here's some quotes:

I don't get it. Why would anyone assume that a woman that is 15 or 20 years older than her husband is incapable of getting pregnant? Women all over are getting pregnant at the age of 60 and older. What, does menopause start at 35 now?
I didn't take it offensively, I am just amused how younger (not necessarily you Sarah) women assume that older women are infertile. People go through menopause at many different ages, some young, some old, but to assume that everyone over a specific age shows that they really haven't done their research. Of course why would they need to at their age, it isn't a concern of theirs, I am aware of that.
My husband never expected to even be able to marry, much less get to have children. At 38, as a poor man, he didn't see either of those opportunities in his future. He accepted that to have a wife and no kids was better than no wife and no kids. Even now that we've agreed to try after I graduate, he still isn't so sure he wants kids at our age. I'll be 47 then and he'll be 42. He really wants to start trying now, but I refuse until I am close enough to graduation that I can graduate before the baby is born. This time if I have a baby I want to be able to enjoy it. Work takes enough of my time, I don't want work and school and a baby.

...

At first I was skeptical about having a baby so old, but a friend at work helped me with that. She's in her 50s and just sent me the pictures of her latest adventure - skydiving. She also owns her own Harley Davidson and has been riding it for years. When I mentioned kids to her, she told me about a friend of hers who has a 3 year old, and she's in her mid 50s. She had the baby when she was about 52 and it's perfectly normal. She loves to remind me that you don't stop living as you age, and even babies can be a part of that life.

Now, both of the women who posted undoubtedly know their own situations, and are working with their doctors. Hence why I didn't quote them originally, because I didn't want to respond to their specific situations and unintentionally give offense.

But I didn't make up the conversation, and my only point when I posted was to point out that there's more of a factor than just menopause when considering fertility decline. This isn't controversial, really. It's not a demographic study. It isn't that they did a study on men and ported it to women (which happens all too often with some studies, especially heart research.) This is pretty much state-of-the-art, and it struck me as odd to hear of 'women in their 60s give birth all over now', when that doesn't seem to be accurate. Never said the science was perfect, but again, not going to bet that we become mistaken about the general shape of the fertility arc, and yes, we're not going to see 55-year-olds becoming pregnant on their own as a matter of course. Bet ya $5.

In terms of the larger discussion, it's not crazy to think that someone in their late forties absent fertility treatments, for all intents and purposes, is likely past her child-bearing years. This bears on the rest of the discussion about the importance or unimportance of children, family, adjustments, etc.

I don't think I have anything more to say about this, really.

AOS

-

Filed: 8/1/07

NOA1:9/7/07

Biometrics: 9/28/07

EAD/AP: 10/17/07

EAD card ordered again (who knows, maybe we got the two-fer deal): 10/23/-7

Transferred to CSC: 10/26/07

Approved: 11/21/07

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You made an off the cuff remark about tons of 55 year old women conceiving, which was not the crux of the discussion and not properly based on anything anyone said, not even in those quotes. It was also out of line with the other evidence you were posting.

As for the $5, I don't know how many 55 year olds (where did that number come from?) want to become pregnant, but the oldest spontaneous pregnancy in the last ten years was older, and several are in their 50s. I did the research when my cousin gave birth at close to 50.5 without fertility treatments, looking for a family history. Just my own curiousity. When you do it for a reason, you find that the research is quite contradictory and full of assumptions.

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Filed: Citizen (pnd) Country: Morocco
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Oh, for crying out loud. I didn't make up the conversation. Here's some quotes:
I don't get it. Why would anyone assume that a woman that is 15 or 20 years older than her husband is incapable of getting pregnant? Women all over are getting pregnant at the age of 60 and older. What, does menopause start at 35 now?
I didn't take it offensively, I am just amused how younger (not necessarily you Sarah) women assume that older women are infertile. People go through menopause at many different ages, some young, some old, but to assume that everyone over a specific age shows that they really haven't done their research. Of course why would they need to at their age, it isn't a concern of theirs, I am aware of that.
My husband never expected to even be able to marry, much less get to have children. At 38, as a poor man, he didn't see either of those opportunities in his future. He accepted that to have a wife and no kids was better than no wife and no kids. Even now that we've agreed to try after I graduate, he still isn't so sure he wants kids at our age. I'll be 47 then and he'll be 42. He really wants to start trying now, but I refuse until I am close enough to graduation that I can graduate before the baby is born. This time if I have a baby I want to be able to enjoy it. Work takes enough of my time, I don't want work and school and a baby.

...

At first I was skeptical about having a baby so old, but a friend at work helped me with that. She's in her 50s and just sent me the pictures of her latest adventure - skydiving. She also owns her own Harley Davidson and has been riding it for years. When I mentioned kids to her, she told me about a friend of hers who has a 3 year old, and she's in her mid 50s. She had the baby when she was about 52 and it's perfectly normal. She loves to remind me that you don't stop living as you age, and even babies can be a part of that life.

Now, both of the women who posted undoubtedly know their own situations, and are working with their doctors. Hence why I didn't quote them originally, because I didn't want to respond to their specific situations and unintentionally give offense.

But I didn't make up the conversation, and my only point when I posted was to point out that there's more of a factor than just menopause when considering fertility decline. This isn't controversial, really. It's not a demographic study. It isn't that they did a study on men and ported it to women (which happens all too often with some studies, especially heart research.) This is pretty much state-of-the-art, and it struck me as odd to hear of 'women in their 60s give birth all over now', when that doesn't seem to be accurate. Never said the science was perfect, but again, not going to bet that we become mistaken about the general shape of the fertility arc, and yes, we're not going to see 55-year-olds becoming pregnant on their own as a matter of course. Bet ya $5.

In terms of the larger discussion, it's not crazy to think that someone in their late forties absent fertility treatments, for all intents and purposes, is likely past her child-bearing years. This bears on the rest of the discussion about the importance or unimportance of children, family, adjustments, etc.

I don't think I have anything more to say about this, really.

Its all fairly simple. From what my doctor stated, if you have gone through menopause you aren't getting pregnant. If you haven't, you can still be fertile, just not as much as you were at an earlier age. It all depends on your level of ovulation. I'm not quite sure how you are getting confused with my posts. I never said that a womans fertility didn't decline at an older age, I agree. But it doesn't make it impossible to conceive either. At the level I was at prior to fertility drugs I could still conceive on my own, but due to my age the doctor didn't want to take the chance of missing the opportunity.

As far as women conceiving in their 60's, it happens. My husband said he knows of many women there in Morocco that have, and also I have seen it on the news. Of course it isn't common, but it happens more than most people know about. When I say all over, maybe you thought I meant that it is happening often, that is not the intention. All over, as in all over the world.....

'Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO HOO, What a Ride'

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You made an off the cuff remark about tons of 55 year old women conceiving, which was not the crux of the discussion and not properly based on anything anyone said, not even in those quotes. It was also out of line with the other evidence you were posting.

As for the $5, I don't know how many 55 year olds (where did that number come from?) want to become pregnant, but the oldest spontaneous pregnancy in the last ten years was older, and several are in their 50s. I did the research when my cousin gave birth at close to 50.5 without fertility treatments, looking for a family history. Just my own curiousity. When you do it for a reason, you find that the research is quite contradictory and full of assumptions.

SZSZ,

Not sure who the first quote was from, but it does say Women all over are getting pregnant at the age of 60 and older so I think it was based on something someone said (just not sure who :blush: ).

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It was an off the cuff remark after several pages of people trying to refute claims about oocytes by saying I was confused about demographic data delaying marriage and some confusion about the difference between declining fertility and a declining fertility rate.

Yes, there are outliers. But that's not really the point here. The point is it's not all that weird when you see a couple where the guy is 30 and the woman is 50 to conclude that having biological children is probably not at the top of their priority list, and it has nothing to do with not knowing when menopause is, and everything to do with it being less likely that they'll conceive without considerable time and expense.

AOS

-

Filed: 8/1/07

NOA1:9/7/07

Biometrics: 9/28/07

EAD/AP: 10/17/07

EAD card ordered again (who knows, maybe we got the two-fer deal): 10/23/-7

Transferred to CSC: 10/26/07

Approved: 11/21/07

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As far as women conceiving in their 60's, it happens. My husband said he knows of many women there in Morocco that have, and also I have seen it on the news. Of course it isn't common, but it happens more than most people know about. When I say all over, maybe you thought I meant that it is happening often, that is not the intention. All over, as in all over the world.....

I don't know what part of Morocco your husband is from, but my husband nearly fell out of his seat laughing when I asked him this. He asked if they were coming from outerspace and kept muttering "crazy" :lol:

M4E just explained that. Still has nothing to do with 55 year old women. Where did that come from? :huh:

I figured Caladan shaved five years off :D

I think most people would understand "happening all over" not to be rare but widespread geographic occurences. She also said there are "many" such cases in Morocco.

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Filed: Citizen (pnd) Country: Morocco
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As far as women conceiving in their 60's, it happens. My husband said he knows of many women there in Morocco that have, and also I have seen it on the news. Of course it isn't common, but it happens more than most people know about. When I say all over, maybe you thought I meant that it is happening often, that is not the intention. All over, as in all over the world.....

I don't know what part of Morocco your husband is from, but my husband nearly fell out of his seat laughing when I asked him this. He asked if they were coming from outerspace and kept muttering "crazy" :lol:

He was speaking of the berber region. Maybe your husband doesn't know of anyone personal, it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. To assume he is aware of everyone's situation in Morocco, now that is what is crazy.

'Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO HOO, What a Ride'

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Yes, there are outliers. But that's not really the point here. The point is it's not all that weird when you see a couple where the guy is 30 and the woman is 50 to conclude that having biological children is probably not at the top of their priority list, and it has nothing to do with not knowing when menopause is, and everything to do with it being less likely that they'll conceive without considerable time and expense.

It wasn't at the top of my cousin's priority list either, but her husband is 12 years younger, which is why nature is full of surprises and scientists are still trying to catch up.

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