dam hoi

[GREEN/TRAN 0]

i heard one time and everyone keeps telling my girl we will be denied coz we didnt have a engagment party.for one i didnt know know about that custom there,i met her mom and sister and her uncle too but most of her family as well as her dad was north viet cong since he was 14 .he dosent know about me yet.is haveing i engagment party really required ?GREEN/TRAN

[andrew va thuy 0]

Well I dont know. For a number of reasons Thuy and I are just planning a very small get together at a resturant with none of ceremony, decorations or expense associated with a ddam cuoi . Just several close friends and part of her family. I personally dont think that would be necessary and neither of us want to have one ( though I would concede if that's what she wanted ). Actually I'd find it uncomfortable to have one and then find my VISA was delayed...

[Tony_H 0]

I don't believe it is necessary. However, it is just another thing that might help convince the INS officer that you are genuine. Even those who faked this process still had an engagement party. I heard they often wanted to see how many people actually showed up at the party as a measure to rule out fraud.

I am doing one in mid November in Saigon anyway. It was necessary for my fiance to have an engagement party to say goodbye to her friends and to present a legitimate reason for her leaving her home. It is customary for a Vietnamese girl to show a valid reason to leave her home for the sake of her and her family's honor.

I am heading over there in a week or so to prepare for it. So it is your call but I think it can't hurt.

Tony

Edited October 28, 2006 by Tony&AnhThu*

[GREEN/TRAN 0]

I don't believe it is necessary. However, it is just another thing that might help convince the INS officer that you are genuine. Even those who faked this process still had an engagement party. I heard they often wanted to see how many people actually showed up at the party as a measure to rule out fraud.

I am doing one in mid November in Saigon anyway. It was necessary for my fiance to have an engagement party to say goodbye to her friends and to present a legitimate reason for her leaving her home. It is customary for a Vietnamese girl to show a valid reason to leave her home for the sake of her and her family's honor.

I am heading over there in a week or so to prepare for it. So it is your call but I think it can't hurt.

Tony

HAVE GOOD TRIP

[3AD 0]

i heard one time and everyone keeps telling my girl we will be denied coz we didnt have a engagment party.for one i didnt know know about that custom there,i met her mom and sister and her uncle too but most of her family as well as her dad was north viet cong since he was 14 .he dosent know about me yet.is haveing i engagment party really required ?GREEN/TRAN

Go with the dam hoi. Don't think like a "practical" American. Think like a status-conscious Vietnamese. This is a very crucial part of the change of status from being a single woman to an engaged/married one and the acceptance of this by both families. Vietnamese put heavy emphasis on pomp and circumstance -- I would even go so far as to say style over substance. Many VN will go into significant debt to have a big show for their dam hoi/dam cuoi. Showing the community your status is one of the main reasons for having a dam hoi. What you pay for any level of a ceremony over there is pittance compared to a similar ceremony here. The less humble, the better. Others can refute this, but I base my opinion on dealing with the Vietnamese community for over 10 years, living and working there quite extensively, and studying contemporary Asian culture as my major during undergraduate education.

Vietnamese on the forum should be able to back me up on this one. I've seen VN-American relationships sour because of the "American rationale" imposed by the American partner (which 99% is the male).

The consulate officer knows of this importance of the ceremony in Vietnamese culture. Not having it (or trying to diminish it) would appear odd to them. The Vietnamese never "down play" a ceremony like this.

Also remember that Vietnamese will generally be humble in asking for things, perhaps even from their fiance (at least in the beginning). They don't "speak their mind" like Americans. They may say no when they mean yes, which is typical of Asian interpersonal communications. This is in response to "thinking" your fiance might not care if you don't have one. Trust me, she does.

3AD

[andrew va thuy 0]

I would not refute what you wrote. And the younger the couple ( as in 3AD ), I am sure the greater to the tendency to adhere to the trend ( bigger is better ) & custom. Your observations seem very accurate. ( ... At least in the beginning )

There may be major external circumstances that might make for an exception.. at the moment I believe that is my case - but perhaps I too am in error.

[Tony_H 0]

At first, I started out with a simple family dinner for her to say goodbye to her close friends. But the more we went into planning, the more important for her to present a valid, good, and proud reason for leaving home to move to America with her husband. Besides, if her husband is to be an American (supposedly rich) or at least currency-translated rich, it should not be an issue to show off a little bit.

So for me, being cost conscious and with other financial limitation, I planned for a smaller and less expensive engagement party. She was hoping for a dinner at the Hyatt or the Sheraton. The Caravelle is too expensive. They both wanted $50+/pp. We found the Legend Hotel which was less for about $20 but would then socked me for the drink bill which put everything at $30/pp. and I still have to provide the wine.

The party was originally planned for 20-30 but now we have about 80 because all of her friends and co-workers. 3AD is absolutely correct. If having to ask, it is customary for a Vietnamese to ask very humbly. However, if it appears acceptable and feasible, they would prefer it to be proud, honorable, and classy.

So I settle for in between. Besides, making her proud and happy shows her that I really care. I am not saying frivoluous but reasonable and still be a little proud.

I think it depends on each person's situation but generally, Vietnamese like to show off and proud when it comes to wedding and funeral.

Tony

[AnchorsAweigh 0]

3AD was right with his advice,and AndrewvaThuy please know that "young" doesnt mean that they cant aware what is the most important,i think 3AD knew the best and we knew how important bout Dam Hoi,so learn and listen:)

[martindart 0]

We had a big ceremony. At time of interview July 19, 2005 they (CO) chose 3 out of the 150 photos presented and later Denied our petition as fraud.

Received consulate report 6-7 months later.

One of the three reasons (in the report) why they denied petition was the photos 'they chose" had only 5-8 people in them. I later rebutted the consulate findings by submitting more photos to Nebraska Service Center which clearly showed in the background many many more people attended our ceremony then the Consulate claimed attended. We won our reaffirmed petition where it now sits inside the consulate since July 14, 2006 as we wait for a second new interview day.

[gp1 0]

One of the three reasons (in the report) why they denied petition was the photos 'they chose" had only 5-8 people in them.

That sucks!

I can't believe they can deny your petition based on how many people were in a photo or attended the engagement party, especially since I'm sure in some cases they didn't have one.

I guess I'll eventually find out though because our ceremony was very small. I do think having one would be essential in the eyes of any traditional vietnamese.

[martindart 0]

One of the three reasons (in the report) why they denied petition was the photos 'they chose" had only 5-8 people in them.

That sucks!

I can't believe they can deny your petition based on how many people were in a photo or attended the engagement party, especially since I'm sure in some cases they didn't have one.

I guess I'll eventually find out though because our ceremony was very small. I do think having one would be essential in the eyes of any traditional vietnamese.

My friend,

Along with that reason was a 2nd and 3rd reason. I wear my work clothes daily (as I like to do) same color and same style (carhart) I was in VN for 14 days. Because I being in those clothes in all or most of the photos taken together (Phuong and I) and then in a suit for the ceremony they (CO) said I was only in VN 2 days. My buddy (whom is from VN) bought my plane ticket while he was in China Town (better price) and I was working at the time and could not go to China Town with him (Not thinking it would matter) I paid him back later, That was the third reason they denied my petition.

This is true story.

[andrew va thuy 0]

My opinion is this, the reason they outwardly give may have little to do with the actual decision. The outward excuse simply makes their decision appear defensible.

What I dont understand clearly is what evidence does the consulate get between the NVC and the interview to determine an ongoing relationship ? Is the packet 3 & 4 just forms or do they ask for more items related to the relationship before the interview - because from what I read, at the interview the decision has already been made ( 98 % ) ?

[Tony_H 0]

Hi Andrew,

I believe that you are correct about their mind being already made up beforehand. In pack 3 & 4, there seem to be mostly more forms and additional documents. However, there is still one requirement of additional proofs of an on-going relationship which I think they just need to confirm a Pink decision. Otherwise, any additional proofs may not matter much in a Blue or Green decision. In the Blue case, they will pursue those additional specific proofs that they want.

My opinion is this, the reason they outwardly give may have little to do with the actual decision. The outward excuse simply makes their decision appear defensible.

What I dont understand clearly is what evidence does the consulate get between the NVC and the interview to determine an ongoing relationship ? Is the packet 3 & 4 just forms or do they ask for more items related to the relationship before the interview - because from what I read, at the interview the decision has already been made ( 98 % ) ?

Edited October 29, 2006 by Tony&AnhThu*

[3AD 0]

because from what I read, at the interview the decision has already been made ( 98 % ) ?

Andrew,

I'd support this conclusion. The reason being is that my fiance's 221g form, which is the infamous "blue slip," has all of her information neatly typed in (name, case number, date, etc.). The CO that interviewed her already had it in hand at the end of the interview. She just scribbled her signature on it and handed it to my fiance.

Also, with regard to your situation and the dam hoi, you are absolutely correct. Age would have an effect on to dam hoi or not to dam hoi, or at least the largess and fanfare. This is especially true if either or both have been previously married. Thanks so much for the (implied) compliment. I guess it depends on what you consider young. While my fiance is considerably younger, I'm 32 and holding. :-)

Good luck to you both.

3AD

[chuckandkim 0]

Here is what I understand the true meaning of Dam Hoi. This is NOT your typical american's "engagement" party. There are so much much works and thoughts put into this ceremony. I'm speaking based on my understanding and the expectation of my families here: Dam Hoi is where my family (the big clan: uncles, aunts, grandparents, nieces, nephews, relatives etc.) meet and greet Kim's family (her clan) for the "FIRST" time. I am not just engaged to Kim, but her family, and vice versa. This is the time where both families would OFFICIALLY accept both of us into the BIG FAMILY, as new member of the House of NGUYEN/LE/TRAN (whatever your wife's family name may be). Before the engagement date was even set and announced to the "clans", my family and Kim's had the "unofficial" meetings and long distance phone calls just to break the ice, discussing the requirement and to define and decide what is "the proper things" to do for Kim and I at our engagement. Long long process! At that time, family's pride runs very high, I don't know why, but if my parents or hers speak the wrong words or say the wrong thing, it could trigger a sense of "disrespectful" to each "clans". Thank God, that didn't happen, but my parents and Kim's were very aware of it! So, I don't know if I can fully explain and stretch how important Dam Hoi is to the vietnamese, but it is MORE important then Dam Cuoi (wedding). Once your girl has the Dam Hoi, it is a sign for all the boys in the "village" to stay away from her, she won't be hanging out with other single boys, the parents of these single boys should stop thinking or coming over to her parents to ask for marrying her for their boys. It's a protection and promise between the two families which their social network and communities highly value and also extremely critical of it if something goes wrong!

For the level of expense and budget... wait, that's not the question here in my opinion. The question is: why do we want to have this engagement. who is it for: the consulate or my families? I say: I want to marry my wife and do ALL the right things for they are culturally acceptable and expected. I do the Dam Hoi for ME and her, not for the Consulate to look at my photos at the interview. That's the bottom line. I careless what the consulate say or criticize my engagement photos. It is what it is, I can't recreate the moment at my engagement to the level of satisfaction that the consulate deems to be acceptable. With that in mind, I would have a DAM HOI that fit my needs. Ask your fiancee how many members of her family her FATHER and MOTHER would like to invite!!!! This is NOT your call, consider this is also her family's chance to SHOW-OFF you and her (as 3AD mentions - social status is a big deal there). With that in mind, you will find Dam Hoi is less overwhelming than it actually is, let her family run the show, it is their show after all. Let the "elders" speak and provide the wisdoms we do not have, no matter how old you may be, this is old school cultures and traditions from the back-country, traced back many centuries, I admit, it was fascinating and interesting event for me.

Back to the question of how much how big Dam Hoi should be: Bring the basic jewelries: diamond ring, matching set of necklace, bracelets, earings, "RED ENVELOPE" (contains cash) in the RED boxes. Don't worry, her family will first "accept" your gift and who the whole families how much you give them for her (old school's tradition), THEN to be generous and showing to your family that they (her family) are also generous and "wealthy", in return, they will give you ALL your gift and MORE gift to you. But at that moment, the gifts are returned to BOTH of you and the extra gifts from her parents are the "sending" gift for their daughter. At that point, both families (yours and hers) are equally respected and fulfilled the "MISSION", nobody loses face! GREAT happy party is await! Let's eat and drink until we can't feel our legs! We had 80 people at our engagement party, plenty of foods and drinks. I can't imagine anyone would spend more than a couple grands for this type of event, any more than that is just a waste and crossing the line into "showing off" land which could cause "envy and unneccessary jealousy" among the families and guests at the party, then they will talk "craps" about your girl and stuff. That's just how we are, the vietnamese. Do it graciously and grace is returned. Humbleness should not be translated into "cheap".

Good luck and I say: do the DAM HOI.