"When it comes to adultery, it's 90% the womans fault"

[Veiled Princess 1]

I don't think anyone would argue that it takes 'two to tango' except the cleric who prompted this discussion. Where has it ever been stated that adultary is the man's fault?

Well all over this thread it's been said that it's not the woman's fault because the man couldn't keep it in his pants... well why isn't it? That's all I'm asking... if a woman tempts a man and he falls for it why are they not both to blame?

Edited October 28, 2006 by Veiled Princess

[Nizzy 1]

But you fail to see that women will be seen as sexual objects no matter what they wear. I beg and plead with you to go visit Peshawar and see for yourself. Even though I don't cover up here when I was there I did as my cousins did and covered EVERYTHING and only had my eyes showing but I still got comments and touching. So tell me, whose fault is that? I wasn't throwing myself around and I wasn't even making eye contact with anyone. I had my head down and was going on my way.

I don't fail to see anything... I visited Cairo, Egypt and saw the difference in a muslim country between how covered women and uncovered women are treated. I was treated with the utmost respect at all times... did I notice men looking? sure, but not starring and certainly not commenting. Of course I was with my husband at all times and he could be seen as my personal pit bull which might explain it

But in all seriousness I saw a lot of women there who were alone in the streets and men didn't treat them like that... I think it has something to do with the attitude of the women... the Cairo women I met seemed to be the non-bull-taking types I don't mean yelling in the streets but at the same time giving off the I will knock you out vibe

The western women who chose to visit and parade around in the streets half nekked were hit on... why? because they put out the look at me I want attention vibe.

What we wear has a lot to do with what vibe we give off.... that's just a known fact of life... that's why professional people don't wear shorts and tennis shoes to the office. A persons clothing is one of the first things you notice about a person.

As far as the "men" in Peshawar... I haven't been there so I can't speak to their behavior.

My friends in SA have told me that when you're in the streets there men don't talk to you because they know it's wrong.... I'm sure there are exceptions to this but it's not the majority.

Travelling with your husband has a lot to do with how you were treated and you don't know how those other women who travelled alone were treated or what was said to them or done to them based on what you briefly saw. I am saying that no matter what you wear you will still get attention from men in Islamic countries. Next time travel alone and go to different parts of the country and get the full experience. I am not saying that women should run around in their panties and bras but we will get attention from men either way, not as much when we are dressed modestly but attention nonetheless.

Okay I have to get off of this thread and write my paper. Have fun debating!

[Veiled Princess 1]

Also keep in mind that not everyone considers this a problem. I think it's a wonderful thing that sex before marriage is more acceptable now, since it's going to happen and always has. Might as well teach the kids to protect themselves. Also, I would never buy a car without test driving it. And sex before marriage for MEN was ALWAYS acceptable. Throughout history. Now things are just more equal.

This is not true. Based on the rest of your statement I can see there is absolutely no reason to continue this discussion with you as we obviously do not share the same idea of morality. Take care

Travelling with your husband has a lot to do with how you were treated and you don't know how those other women who travelled alone were treated or what was said to them or done to them based on what you briefly saw. I am saying that no matter what you wear you will still get attention from men in Islamic countries. Next time travel alone and go to different parts of the country and get the full experience. I am not saying that women should run around in their panties and bras but we will get attention from men either way, not as much when we are dressed modestly but attention nonetheless.

I wouldn't travel around alone like that because I wouldn't want to find myself in that kind of situation. I have no shame in allowing my husband to protect me.

I'm done with this debate too... I stated my opinion and I've had to explain and defend it for pages now like any other time I have an opinion that doesn't jive with others here.

[Peikko 1,575]

Historically, marriage itself wan't the norm in western society unless you had money/political influence so the idea that sex is more prevelant outside of marriage today when women sometimes dress skimpily, than when women wore long skirts is also factually incorrect.

It appears as though you have been defending yourself unncessarily to boot, I don't believe that anyone is arguing that women and men aren't equally to blame when it comes to infidelity.

The premiss of the OP's post was that it's predominantly the women's fault when infidelity occurs which natuarally most people have sought to discredit, at least that was my intention.

[Ivanovo 0]

In Saudi......[snip] ... women are respected, honored and protected and when a rape does occur the man is punished severly.

is the following link is one example of how women in saudi arabia are "respected and protected". the woman in this article was found guilty of adultery because she did not have the required 4 male witnesses to disprove the charges. there is no mention of the punishment the man participating in the " adultery" received.

warning-this is a graphic description of a public stoning in riyadh witnessed by an american. not for the faint of heart. do not say i did not warn you.

http://www.liddyshow.us/liddyfile35.php

[mercy 1]

It is interesting to note that sex outside of marriage has increased and become much more widely acceptable as women's dresses have become shorter and tighter

Correlation does not imply causality.

[mawilson 2,133]

This thread as well as the very concept of "veiling" disgusts me.

[Fandango 1,440]

As with any power one must use it responsibly

Are you actually quoting Superman???

Apologies if this has been said before, as I haven't read the whole thread, but VP...and btw no great suprise that you agree with the article....but if you do agree that 90% is the woman's fault, are you saying that if your husband ever raped anyone, you'd blame the woman andonly give him a slap on the wrist????

[Veiled Princess 1]

In Saudi......[snip] ... women are respected, honored and protected and when a rape does occur the man is punished severly.

is the following link is one example of how women in saudi arabia are "respected and protected". the woman in this article was found guilty of adultery because she did not have the required 4 male witnesses to disprove the charges. there is no mention of the punishment the man participating in the " adultery" received.

warning-this is a graphic description of a public stoning in riyadh witnessed by an american. not for the faint of heart. do not say i did not warn you.

http://www.liddyshow.us/liddyfile35.php

Someone has a vivid imagination....

Teenagers Get 5-Year Jail for Rape

Saeed Al-Abyad, Arab News

JEDDAH, 28 October 2006 — Three teenagers, who gang-raped a Saudi girl about three months ago, have each been sentenced to five years in jail by a summary court in Jeddah.

Police arrested the three, aged not more than 17, after the girl gave descriptions of the criminals. The rape took place in a Makkah street as the young men kidnapped the girl and took her to a remote place to commit the crime.

The young men ran away from the spot leaving the girl on the road, bleeding and crying hysterically for help. The girl was later taken to a Makkah hospital where she received treatment. Police arrested the criminals within a short span of time.

The court rejected the plea of relatives for a softer sentence to the teenagers considering their age and insisted on its verdict as the young men carried out the crime after thorough planning.

An informed source told Arab News that the three culprits have been transferred to a Jeddah reformatory to serve their sentences. “This is one of the strangest incidents I have come across,” said Shakir Muhammad Al-Azouri, director of the center, which is under the supervision of the Social Affairs Ministry. There are 220 teenagers in the center, who were jailed for various crimes such as rape, drug abuse and robbery.

Teenagers Get 50Year Jail for Rape

where were the witnesses??? they should have gotten a longer sentence though.. maybe if there would have been witnesses the sentence would have been longer but it didn't stop them from prosecuting them and no blame was placed on the girl

I haven't read the whole thread

Perhaps you should

[Fandango 1,440]

Yes I consitently have sex in the freezer section of my local Bi-Lo

Why would you do it in the freezer section? I usually have my supermarket sex in the cereal aisle. It's warmer.

Plus, no shrinkage

Edited October 28, 2006 by LisaD

[Ivanovo 0]

In Saudi......[snip] ... women are respected, honored and protected and when a rape does occur the man is punished severly.

is the following link is one example of how women in saudi arabia are "respected and protected". the woman in this article was found guilty of adultery because she did not have the required 4 male witnesses to disprove the charges. there is no mention of the punishment the man participating in the " adultery" received.

warning-this is a graphic description of a public stoning in riyadh witnessed by an american. not for the faint of heart. do not say i did not warn you.

http://www.liddyshow.us/liddyfile35.php

Someone has a vivid imagination....

are you trying to tell me you do not believe this? are you saudi as you seem to spend a lot of your time defending saudis and the sharia (?spelling) law. have you even been to saudi? ( i am asking because it is difficult to get a visa there ) i work for a major oil company, i've been there numerous times as well as all over the world ( including some real shi+ places) i can tell you that even though i am a man and afforded many more priviliges ( compared to women) in saudi ( like driving), i thought that saudi arabia, despite being the wealthiest oil producing country had the poorest display of human rights in regards to women i have ever seen. you appear slightly misogynistic.. maybe you belong in saudi.

[Fandango 1,440]

Perhaps you should

I'm gettin there...humor me tho, either answer the question or show me where you did

[Veiled Princess 1]

Interestingly enough here is one opinion from SA regarding this imam and his statements

Hilali Message Lost in Translation

Siraj Wahab & P.K. Abdul Ghafour, Arab News

The mufti of Australia Sheikh Taj Al-Din Al-Hilali, center, is surrounded by supporters as he leaves Friday prayers at Sydney’s Lakemba Mosque. (Reuters)

JEDDAH, 28 October 2006 — Australian Muslims yesterday rallied behind the country’s mufti who said women who did not wear a veil were “uncovered meat” and attract unnecessary attention. According to news agencies, the country’s Muslims have pledged that the imam would keep his job as their spiritual leader.

Sheikh Taj Al-Din Al-Hilali, the Egyptian-born imam at the center of the raging controversy, was confirmed as the mufti of Australia yesterday after the governing body of Sydney’s largest mosque rallied behind him.

“The board is satisfied with the notion that certain statements made by the mufti were misinterpreted,” Tom Zreika, head of the Lebanese Muslim Association, told a radio station in Sydney. Zreika said, however, that Al-Hilali would not be preaching until after he has returned from the Haj pilgrimage in six weeks time.

Australian Prime Minister John Howard said the imam’s remarks in Arabic during Ramadan to 500 worshippers that compared unveiled women to food left for stray cats were “appalling and reprehensible.” In his statements that have now become controversial, Al-Hilali had criticized women who sway suggestively, wear make-up and no hijab. “If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it? The cats’ or the uncovered meat?” he asked. “The uncovered meat is the problem.”

Howard warned Muslims they risked a backlash from other Australians if they continued to back Al-Hilali against mainstream opinion. “If it is not resolved, then unfortunately people will run around saying ‘Well, the reason they didn’t get rid of him is because secretly some of them support his views,’” Howard said.

Although, the imam has tendered an apology for his comments, saying he had “only intended to protect women’s honor,” opinion in the Muslim world remained completely divided. Some were outraged while others said the message of the imam had been lost in translation.

Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali, who does not wear a hijab, said the Islamic headdress was not a tool worn to prevent rape and sexual harassment. “It’s a symbol that readily identifies you as being Muslim, but just because you don’t wear the head scarf doesn’t mean that you’re considered fresh meat for sale…The onus should not be on the female not to attract attention, it should be on males to learn how to control themselves.”

Australia’s most prominent female Muslim leader, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said the hijab did not “detract or add to a person’s moral standards,” while Islamic Council of Victoria spokesman Waleed Ali said it was “ignorant and naive” for anyone to believe that a hijab could stop sexual assault.

Mansour Al-Hejla, a Saudi Shariah consultant, said Al-Hilali’s statement describing women who do not wear Islamic dress as “uncovered meat” left to be eaten by cats was an unsuitable comparison.

“Islam addresses nonbelievers in a humanitarian and suitable manner and does not abuse them. So how can a mufti issue such a statement?” he asked. It should be pointed here, however, that the imam was addressing an exclusively Muslim audience.

He also emphasized that Muslims must avoid statements that would be used by the enemies of Islam to label them and their religion as extremist and racist.

“The present delicate situation demands from Muslims to be extra cautious. We should not become a burden to Islam and Muslims,” he said.

Dr. Ahmed Omar Hashim, head of the religious committee at the Egyptian Parliament, said Al-Hilali’s statement came at a wrong time, adding it would lead to further disfiguring the picture of Islam. “An Islamic preacher should understand his surroundings and should not lose his cool and balance while making statements,” he said.

In Canada, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, said: “It is indeed regrettable for an imam not to exercise sensitivity toward others with ideological differences. His comments are unduly provocative and go against the teachings of the Qur’an, which also cautions Muslims against offending the sensibilities of others.”

Dr. Muhammad Al-Misteeri, an Islamic scholar in France, also objected to Al-Hilali’s statement, saying Islam does not allow comparing men with animals.

“Rape has nothing to do with the dress worn by a woman. It is caused by factors such as immorality, deviation, psychological problems and unemployment. Rape is done by men and how can we blame women for that?” he asked.

The defenders of the imam, and their numbers are legion, say he should not be persecuted for something taken out of context.

“We’re certainly not going to pass judgment on the basis of one comment in which we know his intentions were completely different,” said Keysar Trad, the president of the Islamic Friendship Association of Australia.

Long-time Jeddah resident Zaheer Iqbal said, “Only yesterday, a Danish court rejected the plea of Muslims to punish a newspaper that offended Muslims by lampooning the holy Prophet (peace be upon him) in a series of caricatures.”

“The court decided that the purpose of the drawings was not to belittle Muslims. While the Danish court was delivering a license to offend Muslims, in another culturally Western country an imam, who was simply trying to preach to his congregation the virtues of decency, was being forced to apologize for something taken completely out of context,” he said.

“The example was in Arabic and in the Orient such examples definitely do not seem as outlandish as they do in the West. The Western media need to understand that its perception and understanding of speech is not the status quo. Certain actions and ways of saying things in the West can equally be misunderstood in an Eastern context. The difference is people in the East never make an issue out of such things,” Iqbal added.

Hilali Message Lost in Translation

answer the question or show me where you did

I have stated repeatedly that I don't believe rape is a woman's fault... What I'm talking about here is adultery and I do believe women should take responsibility for their own actions... including what they wear around men.

[Fandango 1,440]

answer the question or show me where you did

I have stated repeatedly that I don't believe rape is a woman's fault... What I'm talking about here is adultery and I do believe women should take responsibility for their own actions... including what they wear around men.

Ok, ty for answering, but lemme change the question again:

If your husband cheated on you, it's only 10% his fault?

and a side comment...before you start waxing lyrical about the days gone by when girls were virgins....keep in mind that years ago, a divorced woman with children was looked down upon.

How fortunate for you that times have changed!

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

... if a woman tempts a man and he falls for it why are they not both to blame?

Because it's her fault. He wouldn't have fallen had she not tempted him. It's just that simple.