"When it comes to adultery, it's 90% the womans fault"

[Veiled Princess 1]

But you fail to see that women will be seen as sexual objects no matter what they wear. I beg and plead with you to go visit Peshawar and see for yourself. Even though I don't cover up here when I was there I did as my cousins did and covered EVERYTHING and only had my eyes showing but I still got comments and touching. So tell me, whose fault is that? I wasn't throwing myself around and I wasn't even making eye contact with anyone. I had my head down and was going on my way.

I don't fail to see anything... I visited Cairo, Egypt and saw the difference in a muslim country between how covered women and uncovered women are treated. I was treated with the utmost respect at all times... did I notice men looking? sure, but not starring and certainly not commenting. Of course I was with my husband at all times and he could be seen as my personal pit bull which might explain it

But in all seriousness I saw a lot of women there who were alone in the streets and men didn't treat them like that... I think it has something to do with the attitude of the women... the Cairo women I met seemed to be the non-bull-taking types I don't mean yelling in the streets but at the same time giving off the I will knock you out vibe

The western women who chose to visit and parade around in the streets half nekked were hit on... why? because they put out the look at me I want attention vibe.

What we wear has a lot to do with what vibe we give off.... that's just a known fact of life... that's why professional people don't wear shorts and tennis shoes to the office. A persons clothing is one of the first things you notice about a person.

As far as the "men" in Peshawar... I haven't been there so I can't speak to their behavior.

My friends in SA have told me that when you're in the streets there men don't talk to you because they know it's wrong.... I'm sure there are exceptions to this but it's not the majority.

[Peikko 1,575]

I'm still trying to understand how the premiss holds any water at all. Is he saying that all men who comit addultery have been faced with a temptation that they can't resist and those that haven't haven't been faced with that temptation?

Or is his definition of adultry that every man who sees a woman who isn't covered sufficiently has commited it?

The comment by Nizzy, if consistant with normal experience in this situation, would lead one to suspect, that this culture doesn't respect women, regardless of what they do. If women are viewed as the devil's vessels then that isn't a suprising revelation.

I don't think anyone has proved that there is any correlation between how women dress and the incidence of adultary unless the very loose definition as mentioned above is applied.

[Veiled Princess 1]

"Every eye is an adulterer; and every woman perfumeth herself, and goeth

to an assembly where men are, wishing to show herself to them, with a look

of lasciviousness, is an adultress."

reference please?

Why should a woman not have the right to dress as she pleases?

Do you have the right to go to the store completely undressed?

I don't think anyone has proved that there is any correlation between how women dress and the incidence of adultary unless the very loose definition as mentioned above is applied.

It is interesting to note that sex outside of marriage has increased and become much more widely acceptable as women's dresses have become shorter and tighter

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I know I've been seduced by chocolate on many occasions.

[Peikko 1,575]

It's a nice quote, but to directly attribute the 'documented' rise in sex outside of marraige to the length/tightness of women's attire is to say the least simplistic.

My question remains, faced with the same temptation, why is it that some men can keep their pants on and some men can't? Is it perhaps that some men excercise repsonsibility having chosen monogomy, or do they have some biolgically superior mechanism to other men?

[Ivanovo 0]

It is interesting to note that sex outside of marriage has increased and become much more widely acceptable as women's dresses have become shorter and tighter

sex outside of the marriage has NOT increased-it's more freely and openly discussed and debated now. do you think that when women were walking around with bustles and ankle length skirts that adultery, pre-marital sex or rape did not occur?

i googled the reference and it says the Prophet Mohammad said it. i don't know, though, i am not a follower of that particular religion.

[Alex+R 0]

VP-- You still haven't told me why it's all right for men to leave skin showing. If women have to cover up, why don't men? What is the fundamental difference?

How am I supposed to see a man as anything other than a sex object when I can see his calves or arms or even chest? Isn't he just asking for it? How am I supposed to value his intelligence when his pecs are hanging out?

[Veiled Princess 1]

sex outside of the marriage has NOT increased-it's more freely and openly discussed and debated now. do you think that when women were walking around with bustles and ankle length skirts that adultery, pre-marital sex or rape did not occur?

i googled the reference and it says the Prophet Mohammad said it. i don't know, though, i am not a follower of that particular religion.

Are you serious? One is hard pressed to find a virgin (male or female) on their wedding day anymore. It may have happened in the past but it wasn't like we have today of people jumping from BF/GF to BF/GF and having multiple (many) sex partners like today... it wasn't accepted in the past and it certainly wasn't considered a "right" like it is today. Yes... like to admit it or not, sex outside marriage has and will continue to increase with the more women as a whole are willing to expose.

I haven't seen a reference yet so I'm not sure what reference you're referring to.

VP-- You still haven't told me why it's all right for men to leave skin showing. If women have to cover up, why don't men? What is the fundamental difference?

How am I supposed to see a man as anything other than a sex object when I can see his calves or arms or even chest? Isn't he just asking for it? How am I supposed to value his intelligence when his pecs are hanging out?

I don't believe I told you it was OK so I don't see why I have to be the one to answer it for you.

My question remains, faced with the same temptation, why is it that some men can keep their pants on and some men can't? Is it perhaps that some men excercise repsonsibility having chosen monogomy, or do they have some biolgically superior mechanism to other men?

Again... I'm not saying to put all the responsibility on women and remove it from men... I'm saying it's to be shared. The way it is now though takes all responsibility off the woman and places it on the man... how is this fair and balanced?

[Alex+R 0]

[

VP-- You still haven't told me why it's all right for men to leave skin showing. If women have to cover up, why don't men? What is the fundamental difference?

How am I supposed to see a man as anything other than a sex object when I can see his calves or arms or even chest? Isn't he just asking for it? How am I supposed to value his intelligence when his pecs are hanging out?

I don't believe I told you it was OK so I don't see why I have to be the one to answer it for you.

So, in your perfect world, men would also wear the veil? Do you think men should be required to cover up their assets?

When you see a man playing basketball in just a pair of shorts and shoes, do you think he is probably a #######?

Answer honestly, please.

[Peikko 1,575]

Sadly VP, it's a historical truth that sex outside of marriage has been going on for centuries.

Marriage in previous centuries wasn't about love, it was about the uninion of property and as such was more indulged in by the middle classes and aristocracy than by the commoners who generally make up the 'mass of society'. These niceties of love and marriage because of love are a very new phenomenen.

[Veiled Princess 1]

So, in your perfect world, men would also wear the veil? Do you think men should be required to cover up their assets?

When you see a man playing basketball in just a pair of shorts and shoes, do you think he is probably a #######?

Answer honestly, please.

I don't believe I ever told you women have to wear a veil. I have mentioned no specific article of clothing... just modesty and men should be modest as well.

I think you've got me confused with the shaykh in the article because since I agree with one statement I must agree with every ignorant thing he says

I don't watch basketball.

[Peikko 1,575]

I don't think anyone would argue that it takes 'two to tango' except the cleric who prompted this discussion. Where has it ever been stated that adultary is the man's fault?

My question remains, faced with the same temptation, why is it that some men can keep their pants on and some men can't? Is it perhaps that some men excercise repsonsibility having chosen monogomy, or do they have some biolgically superior mechanism to other men?

Again... I'm not saying to put all the responsibility on women and remove it from men... I'm saying it's to be shared. The way it is now though takes all responsibility off the woman and places it on the man... how is this fair and balanced?

Edited October 28, 2006 by Purple_Hibiscus

[Veiled Princess 1]

Sadly VP, it's a historical truth that sex outside of marriage has been going on for centuries.

Marriage in previous centuries wasn't about love, it was about the uninion of property and as such was more indulged in by the middle classes and aristocracy than by the commoners who generally make up the 'mass of society'. These niceties of love and marriage because of love are a very new phenomenen.

Who's talking about love and marriage? I'm talking about having sexual relations with a person you're not married to. While it may have happened in the past (more so in certain cultures than in others), it has increased in this society greatly and become much more acceptable since women lost their sense of modesty and started wearing their underwear in public.

[Peikko 1,575]

For the record, I think you are a highly principled person and I don't disrepect your point of view, I just fail to draw the same conclusions.

My point is, that it's not possible to say that the change in women's attire is the driving force behind the prevelance of sex outside marriage. It's a result of many changes, not least a perception by western society that sex outside of marriage is not sinful. Whether you like that standard or not is a different question.

Edited October 28, 2006 by Purple_Hibiscus

[Alex+R 0]

So, in your perfect world, men would also wear the veil? Do you think men should be required to cover up their assets?

When you see a man playing basketball in just a pair of shorts and shoes, do you think he is probably a #######?

Answer honestly, please.

I don't believe I ever told you women have to wear a veil. I have mentioned no specific article of clothing... just modesty and men should be modest as well.

I think you've got me confused with the shaykh in the article because since I agree with one statement I must agree with every ignorant thing he says

I don't watch basketball.

Here's the thing VP. Your idea of shared responsibility in preventing adultery is completely focused on the woman. The woman has to cover herself up, and the man has to try to restrain himself. What about "it takes two to tango" don't you understand?

Your idea of adultery supposes that women are ONLY sex objects in the eyes of men, and that men are anything but sex objects in the eyes of women.

What century did you walk out of?

Who's talking about love and marriage? I'm talking about having sexual relations with a person you're not married to. While it may have happened in the past (more so in certain cultures than in others), it has increased in this society greatly and become much more acceptable since women lost their sense of modesty and started wearing their underwear in public.

Also keep in mind that not everyone considers this a problem. I think it's a wonderful thing that sex before marriage is more acceptable now, since it's going to happen and always has. Might as well teach the kids to protect themselves. Also, I would never buy a car without test driving it. And sex before marriage for MEN was ALWAYS acceptable. Throughout history. Now things are just more equal.