"When it comes to adultery, it's 90% the womans fault"

[Veiled Princess 1]

The way they see it has nothing to do with what goes unreported. I have relatives who live in Pakistan and Afghanistan and I have been to both places quite a few times and the way I saw things was COMPLETELY different then what they saw. I chose to curse out men who tried anything with me while my cousins and Aunt's thought it was wrong for a woman to raise her voice in public and people would think I was a bad girl. These women need some education to know that they are not to blame for men thinking with their manparts...

It's not shameful for a woman to refrain from acting shrewish in public

How do you know what goes unreported? You've obviously got not proof it it hasn't been reported.

[Karen_L 1]

I know you're a woman, which is what boggles my mind.

But I am serious about wanting to understand this. Yesterday I was walking down the street, and some guys made some comments about my chest. I was just wearing a normal t-shirt. Was it my fault? Could I have prevented this by NOT going onto the street to buy fruit? What should I have done? It certainly did not make me feel good, and I certainly didn't decide to be female and have breasts.

This is what I don't understand about that line of reasoning. And I mean the reasoning of your faith, although your personal reasons could be different.

When women as a whole put off the appearance that we want to be recognized for our bodies then the few who don't have to suffer the consequences unfortunately.

There is not a man or woman on this board who can NOT admit (being 100% honest) that women have an advantage over men in the seduction department. There have been many good men brought down because of one (not so) good woman. I have seen this and been personally involved in it in my past and know for a fact that there's little a man won't do for the 'right' woman.

Considering how many women do extremely stupid things for the attentions and love of a man (i.e. Amy Fisher -- can anyone think of any others?), I would say that men and women are equally able to seduce one another into negative behavior.

Also, rape isn't seduction. Rape isn't caused by seduction. Rape is violence, not sex. Rape is so not-sex that it doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in a discussion about sex or seduction. It would be like bringing up arson.

At some point the men have to take responsibility for their actions.

Women should take responsibility for her own actions as well... it's a double edged sword.

Of course men should lower their gaze and control themselves but like it or not it's part of their animal instincts to be sexually driven when confronted with half naked women... why else is the female body/form so much more attractive then the man's?

ETA: It's simply like this... women have been given this natural power over men... whether it be from God or from nature or whatever your beliefs hold... we have it. As with any power one must use it responsibly. Many do not and it leads to problems.

ETAA: that does not make us evil creatures or anything like that.... it's just a gift.

I think the idea of the "uncontrollable male" is a very dangerous thing to promote and nuture, VP. I know lots of men and none of them are driven to fits of lustful insanity just by seeing women in the street. That kind of behavior (not having self-control) is learned and the more people, esp. women tell their sons it's okay to be out of control, the more out of control they will be. It's not biological, sorry. Also, if a crazy person sees you and decides to do you harm, it doesn't matter if you're in hot pants or veiled from head to toe, he will still attack you. Lots of nuns have been raped on the street while walking around in full habit. I bet they were just oozing with female sexual energy too, huh?

Also, what about women who are attacked in their own homes by men who broke in during the night?

Edited October 28, 2006 by Karen_L

[Veiled Princess 1]

I'd like to know when adultery and rape became one in the same????

[Karen_L 1]

I'd like to know when adultery and rape became one in the same????

You said: "There have been many good men brought down because of one (not so) good woman." I mentioned Amy Fisher as an example of a girl (a young girl, btw) led down a bad, bad road by a man that seduced her. Men and women are equally able to seduce one another.

[Veiled Princess 1]

I'd like to know when adultery and rape became one in the same????

You said: "There have been many good men brought down because of one (not so) good woman." I mentioned Amy Fisher as an example of a girl (a young girl, btw) led down a bad, bad road by a man that seduced her. Men and women are equally able to seduce one another.

I know precisely what I said... however, everyone here is mixing adultery and rape like it's the same... I never said anything about rape... in fact I did not respond at all in the other thread about rape... Amy Fisher was a mentally unstable person to begin with.. I seriously doubt that man she was involved with could have seduced anyone.

I have personally seen decent men who had never done anything wrong in their marriage and who loved their wives very much, lose track of all senses when "seduced" by a woman.

I understand it works both ways and men should be modest as well and they should lower their gaze BUT I don't see what the big problem is with women accepting responsibility for their actions.

[Karen_L 1]

How is date rape not a crime of violence and control?

How is it not about sex if they were on their way to it to begin with and then she suddenly changes her mind?

I'm not excusing men for their actions... they should still be punished BUT I think it's partly the woman's fault too. She shouldn't have been in that position to begin with. FYI... dating is against my beliefs.... this could be a good reason why.

OMG -- VP, please. Not everyone has sex on every date lol. I know you dont believe in dating now, but haven't you ever been on a date before? I've been on lots of dates before I met my husband and I never had sex on any single one of them :no: :no: Not every girl who agrees to go out with some guy is looking for sex.

I'd like to know when adultery and rape became one in the same????

You said: "There have been many good men brought down because of one (not so) good woman." I mentioned Amy Fisher as an example of a girl (a young girl, btw) led down a bad, bad road by a man that seduced her. Men and women are equally able to seduce one another.

I know precisely what I said... however, everyone here is mixing adultery and rape like it's the same... I never said anything about rape... in fact I did not respond at all in the other thread about rape... Amy Fisher was a mentally unstable person to begin with.. I seriously doubt that man she was involved with could have seduced anyone.

I have personally seen decent men who had never done anything wrong in their marriage and who loved their wives very much, lose track of all senses when "seduced" by a woman.

I understand it works both ways and men should be modest as well and they should lower their gaze BUT I don't see what the big problem is with women accepting responsibility for their actions.

Your point, as I understood it, was that women, just by virtue of being women, have a power over men that men do not have over women and women need to control that power. My arguement was: Nope, it goes both ways. Maybe Amy Fisher was a bit dramatic an example, but I will say that I know many lovely girls, reasonable, intelligent, good grades in school, nice, friendly, get involved with a guy and change completely for the very-bad. It works both ways.

But no, certainly adultery isn't rape.

Ok, so you're implying that wearing a tight T-shirt requires a conscious effort and the sole purpose is to get attention from men. Wouldn't a woman then also have to make a conscious effort to wear a baggy T-shirt in aroder to avoid attention from men? My question is: why should a woman have to consider the way a man will react to her clothing selection before she dresses herself?

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. You choose how to present yourself so you should take responsibility for what comes of it.

Everyone in the community is responsible for the effect their actions make on it. Women are a major part of the community... in fact you could really say that women are the very base of society. We are the ones who teach the men and women of tomorrow so we influence everything in our society. We are the ones who influence our husband/fathers/brothers at home. If we want men to treat us differently we have to start at home. If we don't want men to judge us on our appearance then we need to make the effort not to flaunt it.

We also have to teach our sons that, under no circumstances, is it ever okay to force a woman to have sex with you. Even if she looks like the ####### of Babylon, if she tells you no, it means no. Don't you think hearing things like "If she was dressed like that, what did she expect would happen?" will teach future generations that their self-control should only depend on how covered up the woman is and if it looks like sex, it must be sex, even if it says "No!" ?

[

For one, my daughter will not be allowed to "date" the way girls here are.

Good luck with that. If there's one thing teenage girls obey. it's strict rules from their parents forbidding the natural.

! Oh, Alex!

Edited October 28, 2006 by Karen_L

[Veiled Princess 1]

OMG -- VP, please. Not everyone has sex on every date lol. I know you dont believe in dating now, but haven't you ever been on a date before? I've been on lots of dates before I met my husband and I never had sex on any single one of them :no: :no: Not every girl who agrees to go out with some guy is looking for sex.

She may not be looking for it but as you've stated something may lead to it.

Your point, as I understood it, was that women, just by virtue of being women, have a power over men that men do not have over women and women need to control that power. My arguement was: Nope, it goes both ways. Maybe Amy Fisher was a bit dramatic an example, but I will say that I know many lovely girls, reasonable, intelligent, good grades in school, nice, friendly, get involved with a guy and change completely for the very-bad. It works both ways.

But no, certainly adultery isn't rape.

Women do have a power over men. As I have stated in a previous post, men tend to hold a different type of power over women... not so much seduction though I'm sure it happens.

We also have to teach our sons that, under no circumstances, is it ever okay to force a woman to have sex with you. Even if she looks like the ####### of Babylon, if she tells you no, it means no. Don't you think hearing things like "If she was dressed like that, what did she expect would happen?" will teach future generations that their self-control should only depend on how covered up the woman is and if it looks like sex, it must be sex, even if it says "No!" ?

Ok but is it wise to teach our men/boys that they should not be attracted to a semi-nude woman? Do we really want to encourage them to be gay or have a sexual dysfunction?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Ok, so you're implying that wearing a tight T-shirt requires a conscious effort and the sole purpose is to get attention from men. Wouldn't a woman then also have to make a conscious effort to wear a baggy T-shirt in aroder to avoid attention from men? My question is: why should a woman have to consider the way a man will react to her clothing selection before she dresses herself?

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. You choose how to present yourself so you should take responsibility for what comes of it.

Everyone in the community is responsible for the effect their actions make on it. Women are a major part of the community... in fact you could really say that women are the very base of society. We are the ones who teach the men and women of tomorrow so we influence everything in our society. We are the ones who influence our husband/fathers/brothers at home. If we want men to treat us differently we have to start at home. If we don't want men to judge us on our appearance then we need to make the effort not to flaunt it.

I just see a big difference between expecting certain consequences because of our choices, and deserving those consequences.

I agree with that.

[anya-D 8]

Ok but is it wise to teach our men/boys that they should not be attracted to a semi-nude woman? Do we really want to encourage them to be gay or have a sexual dysfunction?

umm.. self-control is different than not attracted to though.. IMO you can teach them to respect them no matter what they wear.. it doesnt mean the cant be attracted to them.. just they need to have self-control.

editted to say that like - everytime my husband see me neked doesnt mean we have to have sex.. he can control himself and respect me if i dont want it.

Edited October 28, 2006 by anya-D

[Karen_L 1]

OMG -- VP, please. Not everyone has sex on every date lol. I know you dont believe in dating now, but haven't you ever been on a date before? I've been on lots of dates before I met my husband and I never had sex on any single one of them :no: :no: Not every girl who agrees to go out with some guy is looking for sex.

She may not be looking for it but as you've stated something may lead to it.

Going food shopping may lead to sex, so may going to work or riding in an airplane or going to school. That doesn't mean doing any of those activities is "asking for trouble."

I will agree that there are certain behaviors that CAN put a woman at risk -- walking around alone in the middle of the night, not locking the doors, parking near a van in a deserted parking lot, but those are all personal safety issues that men too can benefit from.

Your point, as I understood it, was that women, just by virtue of being women, have a power over men that men do not have over women and women need to control that power. My arguement was: Nope, it goes both ways. Maybe Amy Fisher was a bit dramatic an example, but I will say that I know many lovely girls, reasonable, intelligent, good grades in school, nice, friendly, get involved with a guy and change completely for the very-bad. It works both ways.

But no, certainly adultery isn't rape.

Women do have a power over men. As I have stated in a previous post, men tend to hold a different type of power over women... not so much seduction though I'm sure it happens.

I agree that men and women do potentially hold certain powers over one another, but they also have rational minds and the ability to set aside basic urges, which is why many people never cheat on their spouses or get grabby on a train. The man you mentioned earlier, the one who never did anything wrong in his marriage until along came some girl, imo it is not the girl's responsibility that he messed up his marriage; it's his. He is the married person, he is responsible for his own principles and actions. Is she wrong for agreeing to sleep with a married man? Sure, but if he cared about his wife and marriage, he wouldn't have messed around. In general, I think it's a bad idea to make women the custodians of male sexuality. Men are responsible for themselves. We hear all the time how rational men are in comparison to women and many religions teach how they are a level above women in some way -- then they should act that way and be responsible for themselves.

We also have to teach our sons that, under no circumstances, is it ever okay to force a woman to have sex with you. Even if she looks like the ####### of Babylon, if she tells you no, it means no. Don't you think hearing things like "If she was dressed like that, what did she expect would happen?" will teach future generations that their self-control should only depend on how covered up the woman is and if it looks like sex, it must be sex, even if it says "No!" ?

Ok but is it wise to teach our men/boys that they should not be attracted to a semi-nude woman? Do we really want to encourage them to be gay or have a sexual dysfunction?

No, there's a difference between telling them it's okay to feel attracted to naked women and teaching them, either directly or through implication, that any woman dressed in a sexy way must want sex even if she claims she doesn't and that any feeling of sexual attraction in you must mean the woman also wants sex. THAT is a sexual dysfunction.

[Nizzy 1]

The way they see it has nothing to do with what goes unreported. I have relatives who live in Pakistan and Afghanistan and I have been to both places quite a few times and the way I saw things was COMPLETELY different then what they saw. I chose to curse out men who tried anything with me while my cousins and Aunt's thought it was wrong for a woman to raise her voice in public and people would think I was a bad girl. These women need some education to know that they are not to blame for men thinking with their manparts...

It's not shameful for a woman to refrain from acting shrewish in public

How do you know what goes unreported? You've obviously got not proof it it hasn't been reported.

I know people who it has been done to and they have said nothing so it makes me wonder how many other women have gone through the same thing. So tell me, how do you know it doesn't go unreported?

[Veiled Princess 1]

I know people who it has been done to and they have said nothing so it makes me wonder how many other women have gone through the same thing. So tell me, how do you know it doesn't go unreported?

If you know women who have been raped and have not reported it then you should be a good friend and make it your personal mission to educate those women on the importance of reporting these crimes so these dogs can be punished for their crimes.

Rapes go unreported in this country too so that makes up for the unreported rapes in other countries statistically speaking.

umm.. self-control is different than not attracted to though.. IMO you can teach them to respect them no matter what they wear.. it doesnt mean the cant be attracted to them.. just they need to have self-control.

editted to say that like - everytime my husband see me neked doesnt mean we have to have sex.. he can control himself and respect me if i dont want it.

If you constantly aroused your husband and didn't feel like it would it not possibly start to be more difficult to attract him?

I'm not saying that men should not exercise self control.... that's part of them taking responsibility for themselves... what I am saying is that it's part of our responsibility IF we don't want them looking and judging us, not to flaunt it in front of them.

[pedroh 21]

so all women have to dress like bums? with big XXL baggy tshirts and baggy pants?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

so all women have to dress like bums? with big XXL baggy tshirts and baggy pants?

Not like that. But these days it seems women like to squeeze their XL chests into XS shirts. Not sure that's necessary.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Going food shopping may lead to sex, so may going to work or riding in an airplane or going to school. That doesn't mean doing any of those activities is "asking for trouble."

Yes I consitently have sex in the freezer section of my local Bi-Lo

The man you mentioned earlier, the one who never did anything wrong in his marriage until along came some girl, imo it is not the girl's responsibility that he messed up his marriage; it's his. He is the married person, he is responsible for his own principles and actions. Is she wrong for agreeing to sleep with a married man? Sure, but if he cared about his wife and marriage, he wouldn't have messed around. In general, I think it's a bad idea to make women the custodians of male sexuality. Men are responsible for themselves. We hear all the time how rational men are in comparison to women and many religions teach how they are a level above women in some way -- then they should act that way and be responsible for themselves.

In this particular case it wasn't a matter of her "agreeing" to have sex with a married man... it was her specifically seeking out a married man and seducing him until he finally succumbed to her. He was regretful afterwards and completely devestated when she made sure his wife found out about it. They both shared responsibility but the girl in this story was mostly to blame.

No, there's a difference between telling them it's okay to feel attracted to naked women and teaching them, either directly or through implication, that any woman dressed in a sexy way must want sex even if she claims she doesn't and that any feeling of sexual attraction in you must mean the woman also wants sex. THAT is a sexual dysfunction.

No, when women insist on walking the streets nearly nude and then we tell men not to look at us or judge us because of it then what you're teaching men is to not be attracted to girls or you're confusing his body with mixed messages and prepping him for an early life of cialis.

You're also teaching him to repress any natural attractions he might have towards women... it's not then unimaginable that he may develop some kind of complex about this and perhaps take it out on some unsuspecting woman in the future. Not excusing him for it but mental problems start somewhere right?

BTW I have not said anywhere here that it's OK for men to attack women no matter how nude she is.