Do you spoil him?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You're correct, peezy, when you say that this is a forum where all intentions are not known. So, why is it that, not knowing someone's intention, there is a propensity to assume the worst? We know that we all come from different backgrounds and experiences.

Taking that into account, it's only intellectually honest to know that there will be disagreements and words that will have differing impacts on different people. The process of civil public communication requires us to proceed with this in mind, but it does not require us to acquiese to the lowest common denominator among us that demands for the majority to surrender our individuality to the minority. We can and should be allowed to examine our various perspectives, but to be persecuted for them is too much to ask. One who doesn't care to operate as part of an open, free-flowing group is free to leave at any time. I am not suggesting that you do this, but only serving to remind you that demanding agreement on points where you yourself are not prepared to be flexible will only frustrate you.

Edited October 30, 2006 by szsz

[peezey 0]

As for calling you names, I did not call you anything. I said your comments and your continual insistence that using this word is just fine because it's slang were racist. I believe someone can act in a way that is racist, due to misinformation, lack of information or experience, but not be a racist person to the core.

You actually said I was racist, ignorant and arrogant.

Again, go back to my posts. I never, not even once, "called" you anything. I explicity said over an over "the use of the word is arrogant and elitist" and "remarks that are racist". Things are not absolutes in this world, therefore, I know very well that someone may say things or act in a particular way that isn't necessarily in accordance with their values as a whole. This is why attacks on a person are not relevant to any debate, and this is why I didn't make attacks on you as a person, someone I do not know personally, but did attack your use of the word and your reasoning for doing so.

You're correct, peezy, when you say that this is a forum where all intentions are not known. So, why is it that, not knowing someone's intention, there is a propensity to assume the worst? We know that we all come from different backgrounds and experiences.

Taking that into account, it's only intellectually honest to know that there will be disagreements and words that will have differing impacts on different people. The process of civil public communication requires us to proceed with this in mind, but it does not require us to acquiese to the lowest common denominator among us that demands for the majority to surrender our individuality to the minority. We can and should be allowed to examine our various perspectives, but to be persecuted for them is too much to ask. One who doesn't care to operate as part of an open, free-flowing group is free to leave at any time. I am not suggesting that you do this, but only serving to remind you that demanding agreement on points where you yourself are not prepared to be flexible will only frustrate you.

There is no flexibility with racism, and there is no flexibility when it comes to words that carry indelible reminders of a long history of oppression, and a continuing present socio-economic system supporting the same. I do not disagree words have differing impacts on different groups and people. I do believe strongly, though, that it is my responsibility as a citizen of this planet to speak up when words are misappropriated, misused, used maliciously, or used without care. No one is asking you to acquiese your opinion or individuality. And I haven't demanded anything from anyone here, I have only expressed my opinion, which you all seem to do readily and quickly. Why is it that my opinion has become a demand for something? In fact, I believe we are both just disussing here, however, it seems you are telling me there is nothing more to discuss, so I may just shut up now?

[honeyblonde 0]

As for calling you names, I did not call you anything. I said your comments and your continual insistence that using this word is just fine because it's slang were racist. I believe someone can act in a way that is racist, due to misinformation, lack of information or experience, but not be a racist person to the core.

You actually said I was racist, ignorant and arrogant.

Don't take it personal VP, she's called me a racist before too. I guess since I left the other group she had to come here to find people to call racists.

Zetku, please do not be offended by us. I did read your post and do not want to offend you. I also noticed that you used the word Black instead of African-American. I've taken a lot of heat for doing the same. I personally chose to use Black over African-American because I have many dark-skinned friends who are from Jamaica and Haite, and so the second name would be a misnomer. Also, my husband is truly African-American, but doesn't like the term either.

If I had it my way we would all be different desert toppings which in no way identify race and merely indicate shades of something most people love - dark chocolate, milk chocolate, caramel, whipped cream - you name it. One of my favorite blues singers is Guy Davis and he uses the word Chocolate a lot. I liked that when I heard him because that was how I always saw it.

I guess my point is, something just about everyone says will probably offend someone who uses that word differently. Ghetto is quite a popular slang word in this country now if TV is any indication of popularity. I don't even watch much of it, but I've seen ads on the internet for shows and movies, and I listen to popular music on the radio. I don't see how it is any different for a white person to call where they live a ghetto than it is for a black person to do so. That seems racist to me in itself.

[Bosco 1]

Zetku, please do not be offended by us. I did read your post and do not want to offend you. I also noticed that you used the word Black instead of African-American. I've taken a lot of heat for doing the same. I personally chose to use Black over African-American because I have many dark-skinned friends who are from Jamaica and Haite, and so the second name would be a misnomer. Also, my husband is truly African-American, but doesn't like the term either.

The blacks in Haiti and Jamaica also originally came from Africa originally. They were brought there as slaves. If they have since moved here, they are in fact African Americans.

Edited October 30, 2006 by Bosco

[peezey 0]

Don't take it personal VP, she's called me a racist before too. I guess since I left the other group she had to come here to find people to call racists.

Liz, I'm pretty sure you won't ever see how hilarious you sound accusing me of trying to find and weed out racism. I know, it's a terrible goal to have. I should be ashamed of myself.

Why is it you would bring in outside conversations into this group? Would you like to lay it out here? Because I'd guess you wouldn't once you considered it more thoroughly. Not only would it be exceedingly distasteful, it is against the TOS of VJ, and I'm sure you don't want to be reprimanded for something that would ultimately end up in embarassment for you. Also, keep in mind this discussion began long before you left the outside group, so your comment is irrelevant here.

Now, to get back to the discussion at hand, I am curious now why you are changing your opinion of the use of the word in question? Last week you made the following statements:

"Whenever he did come over he said he was spending the weekend in the "ghetto" and we didn't take it as a huge insult. We knew his father was just ignorant."

"If the racists in our town see our neighborhood as the ghetto, that's fine by me - it keeps them out."

But today it seems you are excusing away the use of the word because it is used as slang and it's on TV and by kids, and in popular music, etc.

Which is it? Ignorant & racist, or acceptable because it occurs in pop music?

Edited October 30, 2006 by peezey

[Ban Hammer 13,110]

Why is it you would bring in outside conversations into this group? Would you like to lay it out here? Because I'd guess you wouldn't once you considered it more thoroughly. Not only would it be exceedingly distasteful, it is against the TOS of VJ, and I'm sure you don't want to be reprimanded for something that would ultimately end up in embarassment for you.

specifically, the vj tos states: Post any information obtained or originally transmitted in confidence or with the implied belief that the message was to be kept in confidence without the express permission of the original author of the communication. Additionally any direct communication (with the exception of publicly viewable Posts on the discussion forums) between administrators or moderators and a member are strictly prohibited from being Posted to the discussion forums or retransmitted in any way.

if someone talks about something said on the yahoo mena forum in vj, how was the tos violated as the mena forum was not a private communication between only 2 people. all on the board could read it.

[peezey 0]

Why is it you would bring in outside conversations into this group? Would you like to lay it out here? Because I'd guess you wouldn't once you considered it more thoroughly. Not only would it be exceedingly distasteful, it is against the TOS of VJ, and I'm sure you don't want to be reprimanded for something that would ultimately end up in embarassment for you.

specifically, the vj tos states: Post any information obtained or originally transmitted in confidence or with the implied belief that the message was to be kept in confidence without the express permission of the original author of the communication. Additionally any direct communication (with the exception of publicly viewable Posts on the discussion forums) between administrators or moderators and a member are strictly prohibited from being Posted to the discussion forums or retransmitted in any way.

if someone talks about something said on the yahoo mena forum in vj, how was the tos violated as the mena forum was not a private communication between only 2 people. all on the board could read it.

Thankfully, Charles, there are many, many, many more groups in existence than the yahoo mena forum. Liz is not referring to that group. She is referring to a closed communication that has the explicit expectation of confidentiality.

Edited October 30, 2006 by peezey

[Bosco 1]

Why is it you would bring in outside conversations into this group? Would you like to lay it out here? Because I'd guess you wouldn't once you considered it more thoroughly. Not only would it be exceedingly distasteful, it is against the TOS of VJ, and I'm sure you don't want to be reprimanded for something that would ultimately end up in embarassment for you.

specifically, the vj tos states: Post any information obtained or originally transmitted in confidence or with the implied belief that the message was to be kept in confidence without the express permission of the original author of the communication. Additionally any direct communication (with the exception of publicly viewable Posts on the discussion forums) between administrators or moderators and a member are strictly prohibited from being Posted to the discussion forums or retransmitted in any way.

if someone talks about something said on the yahoo mena forum in vj, how was the tos violated as the mena forum was not a private communication between only 2 people. all on the board could read it.

She is talking about a different Yahoo Group. The front page and membership guidelines of that group clearly state that anything shared in that group is to be kept private.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

[

You're correct, peezy, when you say that this is a forum where all intentions are not known. So, why is it that, not knowing someone's intention, there is a propensity to assume the worst? We know that we all come from different backgrounds and experiences.

Taking that into account, it's only intellectually honest to know that there will be disagreements and words that will have differing impacts on different people. The process of civil public communication requires us to proceed with this in mind, but it does not require us to acquiese to the lowest common denominator among us that demands for the majority to surrender our individuality to the minority. We can and should be allowed to examine our various perspectives, but to be persecuted for them is too much to ask. One who doesn't care to operate as part of an open, free-flowing group is free to leave at any time. I am not suggesting that you do this, but only serving to remind you that demanding agreement on points where you yourself are not prepared to be flexible will only frustrate you.

There is no flexibility with racism, and there is no flexibility when it comes to words that carry indelible reminders of a long history of oppression, and a continuing present socio-economic system supporting the same. I do not disagree words have differing impacts on different groups and people. I do believe strongly, though, that it is my responsibility as a citizen of this planet to speak up when words are misappropriated, misused, used maliciously, or used without care. No one is asking you to acquiese your opinion or individuality. And I haven't demanded anything from anyone here, I have only expressed my opinion, which you all seem to do readily and quickly. Why is it that my opinion has become a demand for something? In fact, I believe we are both just disussing here, however, it seems you are telling me there is nothing more to discuss, so I may just shut up now?

Get over yourself, peezy. I've known people like you all my life. They love the power they get by screaming racism and then having the white folks among them fall over themselves to appease you. I'm not a fan of those who play victims when they are obviously not. I have no idea what your story is other than appearing on the scene to try to cow others when they say something you deem unacceptable, but you won't get anywhere with me. I'm a citizen on this planet, too, and I know that there are more effective ways to create change than coming on a discussion board throwing your weight around about oppression, as if no one knows a damn thing about it besides you.

So, there, you have my opinion. Since you say I have a right to it, respect that and stop complaining about how some disagree with you. That's life, suck it up.

[Ban Hammer 13,110]

Why is it you would bring in outside conversations into this group? Would you like to lay it out here? Because I'd guess you wouldn't once you considered it more thoroughly. Not only would it be exceedingly distasteful, it is against the TOS of VJ, and I'm sure you don't want to be reprimanded for something that would ultimately end up in embarassment for you.

specifically, the vj tos states: Post any information obtained or originally transmitted in confidence or with the implied belief that the message was to be kept in confidence without the express permission of the original author of the communication. Additionally any direct communication (with the exception of publicly viewable Posts on the discussion forums) between administrators or moderators and a member are strictly prohibited from being Posted to the discussion forums or retransmitted in any way.

if someone talks about something said on the yahoo mena forum in vj, how was the tos violated as the mena forum was not a private communication between only 2 people. all on the board could read it.

She is talking about a different Yahoo Group. The front page and membership guidelines of that group clearly state that anything shared in that group is to be kept private.

such might get a person in hot water with that group, but i've not seen ewok worry too much about sites other than vj and i'd be surprised if he enforced the vj tos over the alleged incident above.

[Bosco 1]

So, there, you have my opinion. Since you say I have a right to it, respect that and stop complaining about how some disagree with you. That's life, suck it up.

Couldn't this applied both ways, as is usually the case in forums such as this?

[peezey 0]

such might get a person in hot water with that group, but i've not seen ewok worry too much about sites other than vj and i'd be surprised if he enforced the vj tos over the alleged incident above.

You're right, it will mean little in terms of rules here, however, my point had more to do with the ensuing embarassment of said leaker should she choose to go the route of breaking the confidentiality of the outside group. Not to mention cluttering a board with things that are meaningless to others. But you seem to be up for some voyeurism.

[Bosco 1]

such might get a person in hot water with that group, but i've not seen ewok worry too much about sites other than vj and i'd be surprised if he enforced the vj tos over the alleged incident above.

Ewok may not enforce it but the TOS do not say where the private communication has to come from.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

So, there, you have my opinion. Since you say I have a right to it, respect that and stop complaining about how some disagree with you. That's life, suck it up.

Couldn't this applied both ways, as is usually the case in forums such as this?

No doubt, but someone has to say it first, so I have.

[peezey 0]

Get over yourself, peezy. I've known people like you all my life. They love the power they get by screaming racism and then having the white folks among them fall over themselves to appease you. I'm not a fan of those who play victims when they are obviously not. I have no idea what your story is other than appearing on the scene to try to cow others when they say something you deem unacceptable, but you won't get anywhere with me. I'm a citizen on this planet, too, and I know that there are more effective ways to create change than coming on a discussion board throwing your weight around about oppression, as if no one knows a damn thing about it besides you.

So, there, you have my opinion. Since you say I have a right to it, respect that and stop complaining about how some disagree with you. That's life, suck it up.

Please explain where I've screamed. Also, explain where I might get any power from here, on this board, where no one knows me, and I'm sure we don't live anywhere near each other? Finally, explain the whole statement about "white folks appeasing me".....where am I in this scenario? White, not white, male, female? I honestly don't understand what you are saying here.

And so you say there are more effective ways to create change than a message board, so that means the people here aren't worth discussing things with? It's a lost cause and therefore ineffective?

Again, you certainly may have your own opinion. I just don't understand when I express mine, I'm supposed to shut up and suck it up and stop discussing? Wouldn't the complaining go both ways? You are complaining as well, about me, are you not?

As you mentioned earlier, we have choices, to come to the boards or not.