The forgotten facts

[Marc and Olga 0]

Adapting to a foreign job market (which relies heavily on networking and contacts) completely cold and without ANY contacts is not particularly easy.

Particularly as I've discovered there is a certain bias against immigrant workers (entire stretches of my UK employment history weren't counted because the companies I applied for couldn't (or wouldn't) verify my references.

Thats part of the breaks of moving to a new country. But now that you are working and getting a track record in America when you decide you want to step up in a job it will get easier.

Building on your successes is the key.

...and Clinton enjoyed a nice economy thanks to Ronnie

I seem to recall a pretty bad recession between those 2 presidencies -- I believe Michigan had double digit unemployment.

All this talk about "i never have a problem getting a job" is great if your area has a diverse economy.

if you live in a one industry town, like Detroit, and have skills specific to that industry, if you lose your job you don't just walk right into another.

That was my point, if you can't find a job where you are then go to where the jobs are. If you are unwilling to do that then you have no reason to complain. Things change, the world is dynamic. Adapt or die.

There was a short time in our recent history that this was not the case, after 9/11 it became incredibly difficult to find work, I ended up taking part time work to CMA (cover my (important) bills, such as rent and food...have terrible credit because of this time! =( )

...and Clinton enjoyed a nice economy thanks to Ronnie

Bill chose, consiously it appears from evidence, to ignore the threat by Islamic radicals eventually inherited by GW.

What evidence do you have?

Counterterrorism and Osama bin Laden

On February 26, 1993—thirty-six days after Clinton took office, terrorists who the CIA would later reveal were working under the direction of Osama bin Laden detonated a timed car bomb in the parking garage below Tower One of the World Trade Center in New York City. (See World Trade Center bombing) Clinton responded by ordering his National Security Council, under the direction of Anthony Lake, and the FBI to find and punish those responsible. The FBI was able to quickly identify the vehicle used in the bomb from a remnant found in the rubble: a Ryder rental van, which had been reported stolen in Jersey City, New Jersey the day before. The truck was rented by Mohammed Salameh, whom the FBI immediately detained. Similar evidence led to the arrests of other plotters behind the attack, including Nidal Ayyad, Mahmoud Abouhalima, Ahmad Ajaj, and Ramzi Yousef—who was identified as the key player in the bombing. All men were tried and convicted for the bombing and other terrorists activities.[50]

The 9/11 Commission concluded that, while the United States government responded adequately to the attack, the "successful use of the legal system" to respond to the bombing "had the side effect of obscuring the need to examine the character and extent of the new threat facing the United Sates." The quick trial and conviction of the suspects, according to the commission, caused the nation to "underestimate" bin Laden and his network.[50]

Weeks after the World Trade Center bombing, the CIA uncovered an Iraqi plot to assassinate former President Bush that had been planned while he was in office. Clinton responded with cruise missile strikes against Iraq. [verification needed]

In his 1995 State of the Union address, Clinton proposed "comprehensive legislation to strengthen our hand in combating terrorists, whether they strike at home or abroad."[51] He sent legislation to Congress to extend federal criminal jurisdiction, make it easier to deport terrorists, and act against terrorist fund-raising.[52] Following the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Clinton amended that legislation to increase wiretap and electronic surveillance authority for the FBI, require explosives to be equipped with traceable taggants, and appropriate more funds to the FBI, CIA, and local police.[53]

In June 1995, Clinton issued Presidential Decision Directive 39, which stated that the United States "should deter, defeat and respond vigorously to all terrorist attacks on our territory and against our citizens." Furthermore, it called terrorism both a "matter of national security" and a crime.[54] The implementation of his proposals led to a substantial increase in counter-terrorism funds for the FBI and CIA.

In 1996, the CIA established a special unit of officers to analyze intelligence received about bin Laden and plan operations against him, coined the "Bin Ladin unit." It was this unit that first realized bin Laden was more than just a terrorist financier, but a leader of a global network with operations based in Afghanistan. Given these findings, the NSC encouraged the Department of State to "pay more attention" to Afghanistan and its governing unit, the Taliban, which had received funding from bin Laden. The State Department requested the Taliban to expel bin Laden from the country, noting that he was a sponsor of terrorism and publicly urged Muslims to kill Americans. The Taliban responded that they did not know his whereabouts and, even if they did, he was "not a threat to the United States." The CIA's counter-terrorism division quickly began drafting plans to capture and remove bin Laden from the country. However, Marine General Anthony Zinni and some in the State Department protested the move, saying that the United States should focus instead on ending the Afghan civil war and the Taliban's human rights abuses.[55]

In 1998, Clinton appointed Richard Clarke—who until then served in a drugs and counter-terrorism division of the CIA—to lead an interagency comprehensive counter-terrorism operation, the Counter-terrorism Security Group (CSG). The goal of the CSG was to "detect, deter, and defend against" terrorist attacks. Additionally, Clinton appointed Clarke to sit on the cabinet-level Principals Committee when it met on terrorism issues.[50]

Clinton’s Counter-terrorism Center began drafting a plan to ambush bin Laden’s compound in Kandahar. The CIA mapped the compound and identified the houses of bin Laden’s wives and the location where he most likely slept. The plan was relatively simple, at least on paper. Tribals would “subdue” the guards, enter the compound, take bin Laden to a desert outside Kandahar, and hand him over to another group of tribals. This second group would carry him to a desert landing strip—which had already been tested—where a CIA plane would take him to New York for arraignment. When they completed a draft plan, they ran through two rehearsals in the United States.[56] Confident that the plan would work, the Counter-terrorism Center of the CIA sought the approval of the White House. While they acknowledged that the plan was risky, they stated that there was “a risk in not acting” because “sooner or later, bin Laden will attack U.S. interests, perhaps using WMD.”[57]

Clarke reviewed the plans for Sandy Berger, the National Security Director, and told him that it was in the “very early stages of development” and stressed the importance of only targeting bin Laden, not the entire compound. The NSC told the CIA to begin preparing the necessary legal documents to execute the raid.[58]

The senior management of the CIA was skeptical of the plan, and despite objections, canceled the operation, fearing that the risk to their operatives and financial costs were too high. It is unclear whether or not Clinton was aware of the plan.

As the Counter-terrorism Center continued to track bin Laden, they learned in 1998 that the Saudi government had bin Laden cells within the country that were planning attacks on U.S. forces. CIA Director George Tenet, encouraged by the Saudi’s show of force against bin Laden, asked them to assist in the fight against bin Laden. Clinton named Tenet as his informal “personal representative” to work with Saudi Arabia on terrorism. The Saudis promised Tenet that they would do everything they could to convince the Taliban to release bin Laden for trial in America or elsewhere. The Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Turki bin Faisal, hold various meetings with Taliban chief Mullah Omar and other leaders and received assurance that bin Laden would be removed. Omar, however, reneged on that promise.[50]

On August 7, 1998, bin Laden struck again, this time with simultaneous bombings on the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. (see above) The CIA, having confirmed bin Laden was behind the attack, informed Clinton that terrorist leaders were planning to meet at a camp near Khowst, to plan future attacks. According to Tenet, “several hundred,” including bin Laden, would attend. On August 20, Clinton ordered the military to fire cruise missiles at the camp and a Pharmaceutical factory in Khartoum, where bin Laden was suspected of manufacturing biological weapons. While the military hit their targets, bin Laden was not killed. The CIA estimated that they had missed bin Laden by “a few hours.”[55]

At the time of the attacks, Clinton was embroiled in the Lewinsky scandal (see below). This led many Republicans in Congress to accuse the president of “wagging the dog”—launching a military attack simply to distract the public from his personal problems. Clinton and his principals, however, insist that the decision was made solely on the basis of national security.[50]

After the attacks failed, Clinton moved his focus to diplomatic pressure. On the advice of the State Department, Clinton encouraged Pakistan, whose military intelligence agency was a patron of the Taliban, to pressure the Taliban to remove bin Laden. After numerous meetings with Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, the Pakistani’s would still not cooperate.[50] Sharif eventually agreed to allow the Unites States to train Pakistani special forces to find bin Laden. When Sharif was ousted by Pervez Musharraf, the plan was abandoned.[59]

After encouragement by Richard Clarke, Clinton issued an executive order in July 1999 declaring the Taliban regime as a state sponsor of terrorism.[60] This was followed in October 1999 by a UN resolution sponsored by the United States placing economic and travel sanctions on the Taliban.[61] The Taliban, however, stood by bin Laden, and the United States proposed yet another UN resolution, this time imposing an embargo an arms shipments to the Taliban.[62] The move was meant to weaken the Taliban in their fight against the Northern Alliance in their civil strife. However, the resolution did little to limit the illegal flow of arms from Pakistan.[50]

In August 1999, Clinton signed a Memorandum of Notification ordering the CIA to develop another plan to capture bin Laden, and giving the CIA the authority to order bin Laden be killed.[63]

Near the end of 1999, the Clinton administration, working with the government of Jordan, detected and thwarted a planned terrorist attack to detonate bombs at various New Year millennium celebrations around the world. The CIA confirmed that bin Laden was behind the plot, which was disrupted just days before the New Year.[55] While many credited Clinton’s new CSG for playing a role in the foiling of these plots, critics claim it was “mostly luck.”[64]

The CIA informed Clinton that they feared the thwarted attacks were just part of a larger series of attacks planned for the new year. Clinton asked Clarke and the CSG to draft plans to “deter and disrupt” al Qaeda attacks.[50]

On October 12, 2000, terrorists attacked U.S. Navy Destroyer, the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen. There was no clear indication during the last months of Clinton’s term of who was responsible. [50] The CIA reported that they had “no definitive answer on [the] crucial question of outside direction of the attack—how and by whom. Clinton did not think it would be wise to launch an attack based on a “preliminary judgment,” stating that he would have taken further action had he received definitive intelligence. The CIA was eventually able to confirm bin Laden’s involvement with certainty a week after the Bush administration took office.[55]

As Clinton’s second term drew to a close, the CSG drafted a comprehensive policy paper entitled “Strategy for Eliminating the Threat from the Jihadist Networks of al Qida: Status and Prospects.” The paper outlined a method to “roll back” al Qaeda over “a period of three to five years.” Clarke stated that while “continued anti-al Qida operations at the current level will prevent some attacks, [it] will not seriously attrit their ability to plan and conduct attacks." This policy paper was forwarded to the incoming Bush administration.[55]

source

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

That was my point, if you can't find a job where you are then go to where the jobs are. If you are unwilling to do that then you have no reason to complain. Things change, the world is dynamic. Adapt or die.

I think this is fine if you are young and have no dependents -- in fact, this is what I have done in my life and achieved great success but my generation is the first to deal with the reality that you will not have a job for life. Can you really be so flexible if you are laid off in your late 40s/early 50s and have a family? It's not that easy. And these are people who are hard working americans who never expected anything they didn't earn - they are also quite socially conservative. I'm not sure how well they swallow "adapt or die" message.

[rclouse 0]

Why is an Australian involving himself so much in American politics?

STFU and GBTW. You can complain in 3-4 years if/when you've become a citizen.

[Heracles 417]

Bush vs. Clinton: An Economic Performance Index

By Robert D. Atkinson and Julie Hutto

Methodology

Our Fiscal Future

* Debt Reduction Relative to GDP

* Trade Deficit Reduction Relative to GDP

Employment

* Jobs

* Full-time vs. Part-time Jobs

* Jobs with Good Wages

* Americans with Health Insurance

Incomes

* Productivity

* Per Capita GDP

* Median Household Income

* Poverty Reduction

* Homeownership

http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAr...ontentID=252964

One could say Bill jumped ship before the going got tough. A big portion of the gains made during Clinton's era where from IT. When the bubble burst that took a lot out of the economy. Lets not forget the massive blow due to 9/11..

I could rebut all of those points but what I would like to hear is what Democrats will do apart from constantly repeating get George W out and we need change.. Anyone with half a brain would be asking their party leaders about their 'actual' plans..

[Carol&Marc 0]

'I want my country to flourish, it's just that I don't want to actually do anything about it other than whinge'

Living as I currently do in a less than stellar town in New Jersey with a high percentage of poor and unemployed people – you have to wonder why it is that people would prefer to shop at the local chain supermarket which sells B-Grade produce rather than at Trader Joes or Whole Foods.

If you are well-off, you have the luxury of choice. If you are not, you can’t. Seems simple enough to me.

26 weeks = not looking very hard!

Adapting to a foreign job market (which relies heavily on networking and contacts) completely cold and without ANY contacts is not particularly easy.

Particularly as I've discovered there is a certain bias against immigrant workers (entire stretches of my UK employment history weren't counted because the companies I applied for couldn't (or wouldn't) verify my references.

My AWSOME Brazillian,portuguese speaking, learned to speak english wife, got a fine accounting job 10 days after receiving her EAD ,please dont give me this self pitty #######,this attitude is quite depressing! this kind of whining is like finger nails on a chalk board.

[Heracles 417]

Why is an Australian involving himself so much in American politics?

STFU and GBTW. You can complain in 3-4 years if/when you've become a citizen.

Someone has to get their head out of their ### and think about the real issues rather than who is screwing who and what is like so in fashion in the entertainment world..

I was just thinking, there are so many pro American hollywood Democrats right.. yeah right..

Funny how so many of them choose to make money here yet live overseas and take their millions and spend them in foreign countries... Doesn't really sound like someone who is 'helping' the American economy aka the American people now does it..

[Carol&Marc 0]

Why is an Australian involving himself so much in American politics?

STFU and GBTW. You can complain in 3-4 years if/when you've become a citizen.

Someone has to get their head out of their ### and think about the real issues rather than who is screwing who and what is like so in fashion in the entertainment world..

I was just thinking, there are so many pro American hollywood Democrats right.. yeah right..

Funny how so many of them choose to make money here yet live overseas and take their millions and spend them in foreign countries... Doesn't really sound like someone who is 'helping' the American economy aka the American people now does it..

Infidel just think of it as a good joke!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

My AWSOME Brazillian,portuguese speaking, learned to speak english wife, got a fine accounting job 10 days after receiving her EAD ,please dont give me this self pitty #######,this attitude is quite depressing! this kind of whining is like finger nails on a chalk board.

When she got her EAD was she looking for work in Los Angeles, without a car or driving license?

I got a job fairly quickly after EAD - it was a step down (both in terms of pay and seniority) from what I was doing in London.

Now I work in NYC - within an easy 35 minute commute to the city and make 5 times more than I was making in LA.

Circumstances limit opportunity. That too... is obvious.

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

My AWSOME Brazillian,portuguese speaking, learned to speak english wife, got a fine accounting job 10 days after receiving her EAD ,please dont give me this self pitty #######,this attitude is quite depressing! this kind of whining is like finger nails on a chalk board.

When she got her EAD was she looking for work in Los Angeles, without a car or driving license?

I got a job fairly quickly after EAD - it was a step down (both in terms of pay and seniority) from what I was doing in London.

Now I work in NYC - within an easy 35 minute commute to the city and make 5 times more than I was making in LA.

Circumstances limit opportunity. That too... is obvious.

you were fob too. i'm sure you'll work your way back up the pay scale.

[mawilson 2,133]

Why is an Australian involving himself so much in American politics?

STFU and GBTW. You can complain in 3-4 years if/when you've become a citizen.

Why? Does freedom of speech not extend to Permanent Legal Residents who are not US citizens yet?

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

Why is an Australian involving himself so much in American politics?

STFU and GBTW. You can complain in 3-4 years if/when you've become a citizen.

Why? Does freedom of speech not extend to Permanent Legal Residents who are not US citizens yet?

if so, someone tell that michael fox guy

[rclouse 0]

Why is an Australian involving himself so much in American politics?

STFU and GBTW. You can complain in 3-4 years if/when you've become a citizen.

if so, someone tell that michael fox guy

Michael J. Fox became a naturalized US citizen in 2000.

Why? Does freedom of speech not extend to Permanent Legal Residents who are not US citizens yet?

Not when his "facts" obscure the truth.

Not when he's a dittohead.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Innibig.

You're blurring this debate by providing facts.

Please stop infusing this thread with facts otherwise many here will be upset.

“Facts” are deceiving, especially when it comes to unemployment figures. In the UK for example, a person is counted as unemployed if they are registered unemployed (in other words collecting unemployment benefits). In other words all you have to do to “reduce” unemployment is make people ineligibile for benefits or otherwise take those benefits away. As a result you can reduce the number of unemployed people (on paper) without actually doing anything about unemployment.

Very true, I was "out of work" yet not "unemployed" once. The difference between the former and the latter was the weekly registration for unemployment benefits. If you register, you're counted as unemployed. If you do not regsiter, you're not counted. Now, if one's benefits run out, there's really no point in registering. Benefits typically run out after 26 weeks. That means a person would be "unemployed" for 26 weeks max. After that, one is simply "out of work". And yes, in George Bush's economy, it can take upwards of 26 weeks to find suitable employment. I've experienced it firsthand.

26 weeks = not looking very hard!

It's fun to generalize, isn't it? Shows your level of ignorance on the subject matter but it sure seems fun.

Besides, your remark has nothing to do with the point that was being made. But you probably missed that, too.

Edited October 27, 2006 by ET-US2004

[Marc and Olga 0]

I suppose I should clear something up, at least where MY opinion is concerned:

I do not like the current situation we are in, fiscally nor internationally.

I also think the Democrats do not have a reasonable plan for our future at this time.

I will vote with those who vote closely to how I feel though.

How WILL I know?

[Heracles 417]

26 weeks = not looking very hard!

It's fun to generalize, isn't it? Shows your level of ignorance on the subject matter but it sure seems fun.

Besides, you remark has nothing to do with the point that was being made. But you probably missed that, too.

The jobs are out there. There seems to be a problem with a lot of peoples attitude and their stance that they would never dare do x jobs. A job is a job. The problem is everyone wants a nice little cubicle job.. The work is there if one wants to do it..

It honestly amazes me how few anglo-saxon kids I see working in the US. Yet are hanging out in the malls or cruising around doing stupid ###### with their buddies.. So many parents here teach their kids that hard work simply means getting in college..

Edited October 27, 2006 by Infidel