Visa Refused (221g): HCMC Embassy

[3AD 0]

I've not been on VJ in a while, but here's our story. Fiance had her interview yesterday.

We had a rock solid app going in. Marc Ellis (EllisIsland) is representing us. Everything in order, organized, all financials, even had a job offer. Everything notarized, organized, etc.

As usual, first person at embassy my fiance dealt with is very rude. As soon as she handed the clerk our paperwork the clerk snapped back and said "Where's this? Why don't you have this? Didn't you read the letter?" OK folks. Here's the deal. I had everything, I mean EVERYTHING they asked for. I spent over 20 hours putting the documents together. I am totally ####### about details. Absolutely everything was in the precise order that they asked for according to Packet 4 instructions. My fiance had to tell the clerk three times that everything was there. The clerk finally realized that we did have everything and reluctantly shut up, only after taking apart my neatly organized application and shuffling stuff around, throwing stuff back at my fiance, ignoring my cover letter that explained the contents and our situation.

First interview was unfortunately with another Vietnamese. This person just asked routine questions "Where did you meet, how many times has he been here to visit, etc. etc.?" in Vietnamese language. Took notes, took the paperwork and asked my fiance to wait again.

Hours of waiting and then an interview with (finally) a U.S. citizen consular officer who was very nice. She was a woman, probably around 25, who didn't look at any travel receipts or correspondence. Asked the routine questions, including how we communicated. My fiance said many ways, including chat, email, etc. CO said show her those evidences. Asked about my visits. Since I lived and worked in Vietnam for long periods, there was confusion over my "visits" (which were actually for work as well as to see my fiance -- I met her in person in VN while working there and spent a total of 8 months together over the past year and a half). The CO was very polite, asked to see a few pictures (which included dam hoi ceremony which my mother flew over and attended), flipped through 40+ pages of correspondence (letters, email, phone records) but didn't scrutinize too carefully. Looked at job offer letter for my fiance (which was from my maternal aunt who owns a salon). Asked about my line of work (I'm PhD student in business, there was some discussion about that). Very candid conversation, a little joking, a little "girl talk." CO asked if my fiance was pregnant and my fiance said yes. CO asked how far along and my fiance told her six months. Asked if boy or girl. We have a little girl on the way. CO smiled, said congratuations about that and then handed her a blue slip (form 221g). Got up, went to lunch and my fiance had to leave.

The 221g does not have any reasons listed on it, although there are places for that. My fiance returned to the embassy after their lengthy lunch break and the Vietnamese girl at the window told her to come back after she had her baby and fill out paperwork for American citizenship for the child. They kept all documents except for correspondence (proof of relationship) and travel receipts, which they gave back to my fiance.

I'm stumped. No explanation on 221g leaves me nowhere but stumped. Marc, my attorney, will be back in Vietnam in a few weeks and we'll hopefully get things straightened out.

I guess I'm in "AR" (Administrative Review)?

I'm upset. Not so much over our 221g, but the lack of courtesy from people who are State Department employees. When I've called before, they are very rude, condescending, etc. Typical Vietnamese style (remember, I've lived and worked there) of someone in "power" dealing with someone who needs their help. This is not the level of customer service taxpayers should be getting.

Don't know if this story will help anyone. But by the way, the embassy does not consider co-sponsors according to my attorney and many others I've talked to recently. They do, however, look favorably on legitimate job offers (which they asked questions about in detail). I just had that as backup (including all relevant business tax returns, letterhead, bank officer letters, etc.). Although my salary is low as a doctoral student, I've got significant funds in the bank and am a designated principal in a long-term successful business (had all documentation for that, business license, bank letters, financial statements, cashflow, etc.). I don't think the financials were an issue.

We'll see. It's a mystery. My fiance is sitting on a bus right now for the 8 hour ride back home. I'll update when I can.

Best to everyone.

3AD

[Kevin&Loan 0]

3AD, #######? The Vietnamese staff at the Consulate does not know nor choose to ignore the fact that we are paying for their salary. They are very well trained at being arrogant and patronizing. I have written numerous letters to the States Department, the Consulate, the Embassy to complaint and they, too, ignored my concerns. I am hoping that your lawyer will put up a fair fight for you. Good luck

[~kiyah~ 14]

3AD: Do you know exactly what the wording is on the 221g? By law it is supposed to state the reason for the refusal whether it be Administrative Processing (AP), Administrative Review (AR), or Returned to the United States service center for further review.

Now, if it is due to AR or AP then this is normal (sometimes extensive) security/background checks and you will be fine. I know Marc can assist thoroughly. You need to know the exact wording of this 221g...can you have your fiance scan it and email it to you so you can see it for your own eyes?

I pray this is only AR/AP and not being returned to the US for further review. You do have the right lawyer for this what ever this 221g says.

~Kiyah~

[3AD 0]

3AD: Do you know exactly what the wording is on the 221g? By law it is supposed to state the reason for the refusal whether it be Administrative Processing (AP), Administrative Review (AR), or Returned to the United States service center for further review.

Now, if it is due to AR or AP then this is normal (sometimes extensive) security/background checks and you will be fine. I know Marc can assist thoroughly. You need to know the exact wording of this 221g...can you have your fiance scan it and email it to you so you can see it for your own eyes?

I pray this is only AR/AP and not being returned to the US for further review. You do have the right lawyer for this what ever this 221g says.

~Kiyah~

Kiyah,

Thanks for your post. Actually, I did exactly what you suggested and asked my fiance to scan and send it once she gets back home. So, sorry to be incomplete in my original missive. I know that my fiance said there are checkboxes for "further documentation" and an area to write details, but nothing was checked or filled out apparently. I'll re-post once I get that info.

Thanks,

3AD

[Dean iWait 0]

Can you share what your attorney Marc Ellis said after you informed him of what happened at the embassy?

[AnchorsAweigh 0]

3AD,

we got Marc who is our attorney too,so now just wait till get back to VN i think he will know how to work things out,he's a good one and please update your case after he get back

so dont give up

[gp1 0]

the Vietnamese girl at the window told her to come back after she had her baby and fill out paperwork for American citizenship for the child.

This can't be the reason for denial, can it?

Man, it sounds like they do whatever they feel like over there. Since I'm just starting this process, it looks like it would be a plus to hire someone like Marc Ellis.

I fell for you 3AD, sounds like you have a pretty solid case.

I hope it will all work out.

[MTDTD 0]

3AD,

From what I know if you file for K1, and your wife pregnant they will make you change it to K3. Two of my friends happen to be in your same situation. They had to wait another 1.5 years before there wife can come over plus DNA test. Best of luck to you.

[patricks 0]

3AD,

Your attached photo is nice; it's really unfortunate for the two of you.

I agree with Mr. Huan, do you think, your Fiancee being pregnant with no marriage certificate had anything to do with their decision? I always thought while living in VN, if you got a VNs pregnant, you had better marry her pretty quickly so her family doesn't lose face. A pregnant women without a husband is a No No.....( I could be wrong ? ) Maybe go back and get a marriage certificate and re-apply?

Good Luck

[wait4ever 0]

3AD,

Unfortunately, none of what you have described in your account of experiences with the Consulate@ HCMC surprises me. I was warned specifically by someone who prepares immigration cases that HCMC will put off final processing of a visa due to pregnancy. Your paternity must be proven after birth before they will grant the visa(s). I don't know about the specifics of registering the child as a citizen, or if you have to change the visa to a K-3 (doubt it). If this is the case, you will likely have to meet the financial requirement for supporting three people.

Of the cases that I have heard about where joint-sponsorship is actually granted, they were all cases where the petitioner was a university student. You might just get lucky.

I am sorry to see you go through this. I know how terrible the process is when they keep you in the dark. Stay strong and just keep navigating the process. Good luck.

[andrew va thuy 0]

Based on your report and others, I believe each case is determined well in advance of any person's arrival and the interview is only a formality to turn what would be a pink slip to a blue one ( ie rescind the decision ). Or to give the blue slip. The American who comes out last has he responsibility to either put on a nice face to a rejection or congratulate...

Just my thoughts. Thanks for sharing all that you prepared and what happened We wish you well and a speedy approval

[Mike n Huong 1]

I feel your pain. Just stay strong and stay focused.

We wish you the best of luck!!!!

[chuckandkim 0]

3AD,

I feel your pain. Not sure what to say...

[Tony_H 0]

I would like to venture a guess to why there seems to be a policy of making a pregnant foreigner wait till the birth of her child.

Take a situation of a K-1/K-2 for someone who has children to come, both the mother and the child(ren) will be subjected to the immigration process and rules until they become naturalized.

For a one who is pregnant, if she arrives thru a K-1 visa, the child would be born in the U.S. and would be a U.S. citizen automatically regardless of who the father might be. This would allow her to stay in the U.S. much easier and not be subjected to the immigration screening rules.

However, if the baby is of a U.S. citizen, then the citizenship would be granted after DNA verification or by the process currently in place to grant the baby the U.S. citizenship. Then after that, it would be much easier for the mother to obtain a visa to enter the U.S. and she deserves it. My uncle has done the baby citizenship process for his 14-month old girl recently. She is now a foreign-born U.S. citizen, who has her own passport and can return to the U.S. anytime.

It appears to me that this has been designed to NOT inadvertently grant a U.S. citizenship to a baby who is not from a U.S. citizen. Does this make sense?

I don't know that this line of thinking is correct or not and maybe someone can verify it. It appears to have a silver lining in this unfortunate setback for 3AD.

I would like to pray for you and your fiance through this difficult setback and that you will have the patience and strength through this process.

Tony

Edited October 27, 2006 by Tony&AnhThu*

[menyoo 0]

Based on your report and others, I believe each case is determined well in advance of any person's arrival and the interview is only a formality to turn what would be a pink slip to a blue one ( ie rescind the decision ). Or to give the blue slip. The American who comes out last has he responsibility to either put on a nice face to a rejection or congratulate...

Just my thoughts. Thanks for sharing all that you prepared and what happened We wish you well and a speedy approval

I total agree with you on this predetermined case. The HCM CO has 3 months to review each case when he/she received from the NVC in the US. My case was one of them. I've not seen the pink slip, so I don't know what is look like. But I was there during my fiancee interview back July, and she told me that there was a Vietnamese staff who written up the pink slip as he/she goes through the requirement documents that state in Pkg4. She also noticed that the blue slip was already in the file because while she was standing at the window she a pink slip on top of the file. She was so hopefull that she was going to get the pink instead after the CO interviewed her, she pulled out the blue inside the folder instead. Man, I was pissed! Nothing surprises me of what 3Ad said. That's level of services you'll get in Vietnam when you need help. more like a "no money no talk" altitude.

Hope your lawyer will get your case up to speed and bring home a trophy soon.