Buying a Wife from the Ukraine

[1HappyGuy 45]

I understand the sentiment, but your claim that Stalin established the use of the definite article in connection with Ukraine in the English language is dubious at best for several reasons, not the least of which is that Stalin didn't publicly claim to know English and Ukrainian and Russian have no articles.

If you have any doubt that Stalin's intent was to reduce Ukraine to a region just read this blurb from Ukrainian history. This is not about an English grammar lesson, this is about changing the identity of a people.

Starting from the late 1920s, Ukraine was involved in the Soviet industrialisation and the republic's industrial output quadrupled during the 1930s.[51]

The industrialisation had a heavy cost for the peasantry, demographically a backbone of the Ukrainian nation. To satisfy the state's need for increased food supplies and to finance industrialisation, Stalin instituted a program of collectivisation of agriculture as the state combined the peasants' lands and animals into collective farms and enforced the policies by the regular troops and secret police.[51] Those who resisted were arrested and deported and the increased production quotas were placed on the peasantry. The collectivisation had a devastating effect on agricultural productivity. As the members of the collective farms were not allowed to receive any grain until sometimes unrealistic quotas were met, starvation in the Soviet Union became more common. In 1932–33, millions starved to death in a famine known as Holodomor or "Great Famine".[c] Scholars are divided as to whether this famine fits the definition of genocide, but the Ukrainian parliament and other countries recognise it as such.[c]

The famine claimed up to 10 million of Ukrainian lives as peasants' food stocks were forcibly removed by the Soviet government by the NKVD secret police. Some explanations for the causes for the excess deaths in rural areas of Ukraine and Kazakhstan during 1931–34 has been given by dividing the causes into three groups: objective non-policy-related factors, like the drought of 1931 and poor weather in 1932; inadvertent result of policies with other objectives, like rapid industrialization, socialization of livestock, and neglected crop rotation patterns; and deaths caused intentionally by a starvation policy. The Communist leadership perceived famine not as a humanitarian catastrophe but as a means of class struggle and used starvation as a punishment tool to force peasants into collective farms.[56] It was largely the same groups of individuals who were responsible for the mass killing operations during the civil war, collectivisation, and the Great Terror. These groups were associated with Efim Georgievich Evdokimov (1891–1939) and operated in Ukraine during the civil war, in the North Caucasus in the 1920s, and in the Secret Operational Division within General State Political Administration (OGPU) in 1929–31. Evdokimov transferred into Communist Party administration in 1934, when he became Party secretary for North Caucasus Krai. But he appears to have continued advising Joseph Stalin and Nikolai Yezhov on security matters, and the latter relied on Evdokimov's former colleagues to carry out the mass killing operations that are known as the Great Terror in 1937–38.[57]

With Joseph Stalin's change of course in the late 1920s, however, Moscow's toleration of Ukrainian national identity came to an end. Systematic state terror of the 1930s destroyed Ukraine's writers, artists, and intellectuals; the Communist Party of Ukraine was purged of its "nationalist deviationists". Two waves of Stalinist political repression and persecution in the Soviet Union (1929–34 and 1936–38) resulted in the killing of some 681,692 people; this included four-fifths of the Ukrainian cultural elite and three-quarters of all the Red Army's higher-ranking officers.[51]

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Consider launching your defense of Ukrainian women and "the Ukraine" from The Great Britian sub-forum

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/374254-my-izabela-will-be-here-friday-evening/page__view__findpost__p__5553595 <----

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Consider launching your defense of Ukrainian women and "the Ukraine" from The Great Britian sub-forum

Goodness! That's not very hospitable. Was it the ####### comment?

[eekee 182]

Well, на implies region, as does "the". На северо-западе, in the Northwest. So yes, i do think the use of в or на would lend itself to either subtracting or adding the article. I am not sure that, historically/linguistically, that Stalin is responsible for the use of "на". They were occupied by Poland and the Russian Empire long before Stalin was even born.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Goodness! That's not very hospitable. Was it the ####### comment?

The UK forum is known for hospitality.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

The UK forum is known for hospitality.

Did you click that link I posted a few post up? It was like poking a stick in a hornets nest. The mods even had to delete a few of the replies to my post on that thread. Apparently in their world it's ok to come in here and razz us but when it's done to them in the UK forum they have a near heart attack.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Did you click that link I posted a few post up? It was like poking a stick in a hornets nest. The mods even had to delete a few of the replies to my post on that thread. Apparently in their world it's ok to come in here and razz us but when it's done to them in the UK forum they have a near heart attack.

Yeah, I posted to google "Ukraine"

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Yeah, I posted to google "Ukraine"

[Stuart and Thea 95]

Wow, you guys in here are pretty passionate about little things aren't you? Okay, on the thing of "the" and if it is necessary, (being ignorant of the subject and already being told why the BELONGS in front of Netherlands by another friend) I decided to look at it briefly. I also happen to know that France is simply France in English, but La France in French, so it requires a participle in front in its own language but not in English.

So here's what I came up with:

Does English grammar require the definite article the before Ukraine? Ukraine is the name of an independent country. There are only two groups of countries which require the article in English: Those with plural names such as the United States or the Netherlands. The others have names with adjectival or compound forms which require the article, such as the United Kingdom, the Dominion of Canada, or the Ukrainian SSR.

English grammar does not require a definite article before the names of singular countries such as England, Canada or Ukraine.

Geographical regions such as the Arctic, the Atlantic, the North, the West, and the prairies all require the definite article, but these are not countries. Since 1917 Ukraine has had very definite borders so it cannot be regarded as merely a region. Some people have mistakenly thought that Ukraine is a general word meaning "the borderland;' "the steppes" or "the prairies;' which would require the article. A few neanderthal writers in the past have even promoted "the Ukraine" to reflect the original meaning "the borderland" in order to diminish the international political stature of Ukraine. They betrayed their ignorance of Ukraine, or their bias against it, with this usage. See for example, the view of Robert 0. Grover in the U.S. News & World Report (Dec. 9, 1991).

So, on the surface of things, in English, if it was the Ukranian SSR, it would still require to be having a the in front of it. However, if it is just Ukraine, it does not require it, and putting the in front of it seeks to subjugate it to a lesser status. So.... I have never and never will say the Ukranian SSR, so the Ukraine will no longer be in my vocabulary. Simple.

Here's some more great quotes from the article I read:

"When the December 1991 referendum confirmed the independence of Ukraine the White House in Washington, D.C. officially announced that it would discontinue use of the definite article before the name Ukraine."

"There appears to be virtually no grammatical or logical reason to use the definite article before the name Ukraine. But it is still encountered occasionally because of habit or because the writer is careless or ignorant about Ukraine. Sir Bernard Pares the eminent English historian of Russia suggested that "the Ukraine" came from French usage. We say Ia France, le Canada and l'Ukraine in French but not 'the France; 'the Canada' or 'the Ukraine' in the English language. The definite article the does not add anything to the meaning or clarity when used before the proper noun Ukraine."

"We may conclude then, that the use of the definite article in English before the name Ukraine is awkward, incorrect and superfluous. Writers who care about good style in their English grammar and the correctness of their language will always avoid the use of 'the Ukraine' and use only the simpler and correct 'Ukraine.'"

article link

Sooooo... blame the French.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Wow, you guys in here are pretty passionate about little things aren't you? Okay, on the thing of "the" and if it is necessary, (being ignorant of the subject and already being told why the BELONGS in front of Netherlands by another friend) I decided to look at it briefly. I also happen to know that France is simply France in English, but La France in French, so it requires a participle in front in its own language but not in English.

So here's what I came up with:

So, on the surface of things, in English, if it was the Ukranian SSR, it would still require to be having a the in front of it. However, if it is just Ukraine, it does not require it, and putting the in front of it seeks to subjugate it to a lesser status. So.... I have never and never will say the Ukranian SSR, so the Ukraine will no longer be in my vocabulary. Simple.

Here's some more great quotes from the article I read:

article link

Sooooo... blame the French.

Ukraine vs The Ukraine is a thing of Ukrainian national identity. Fact of the matter is Ukraine has only recently gained it's independence since the Mongol invasion back in the 13th century. Since then it's been bullied by Poland and later on Russia for centuries. Russia has tried more than once to stamp out Ukrainian language and national identity and the worst of it all is now that Ukraine has finally got it's independence they up and vote in a repressive commie Moscow loving president who is doing everything in his power to set Ukraine back decades.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Bad_Daddy

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

We will see how hospitable they are now and how much they defend Ukrainian women.

[1HappyGuy 45]

Ukraine vs The Ukraine is a thing of Ukrainian national identity. Fact of the matter is Ukraine has only recently gained it's independence since the Mongol invasion back in the 13th century. Since then it's been bullied by Poland and later on Russia for centuries. Russia has tried more than once to stamp out Ukrainian language and national identity and the worst of it all is now that Ukraine has finally got it's independence they up and vote in a repressive commie Moscow loving president who is doing everything in his power to set Ukraine back decades.

Thank you. If any of these "the" people could listen to my wife bristle at the naming of Ukraine in so many mediums they would probably understand why I didn't let it lie.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Thank you. If any of these "the" people could listen to my wife bristle at the naming of Ukraine in so many mediums they would probably understand why I didn't let it lie.

And my wife is a Russian AND English teacher and enough about grammar!

[Empress of Groovy 373]

The UK forum is known for hospitality.

What does any of this have to do with the UK subforum? I don't represent it in any way. I'm an individual, thank you.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

What does any of this have to do with the UK subforum? I don't represent it in any way. I'm an individual, thank you.

Let's not be coy here. There's a group of gals, most of them with a UK flag...a few with the Canadian flag and one or two Aussies that hang in a pack and you being one of the ring leaders of said pack knows this only too well.