Doubts part II

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Well, the bottom line is that if the idea of meeting and growing close to someone on the internet doesn't work for you, then you can't get out of it what those of us who it does work for get out of it. It's not a matter of being naive. I am hardly naive. I may be a more literal person, so words have a deeper meaning for me. Physicality works too, but falling into bed when words fail is the expressway to a doomed relationship, imo.

I don't believe that anyone said that it was simple, or that you get just the facts from an internet relationship. I know I didn't. We have said to read between the lines and pay attention to what is being said. You should do that in any relationship, on or off line.

The advantage that I have is that I've established relationships both ways, IRL and online, so there is no imagining for me what either is like; I've done both. If you haven't experienced both, I'm not sure how you can objectively evaluate what you haven't experienced.

Edited October 26, 2006 by szsz

[Jenn! 918]

However, I know it can work - I have seen it work, and I am sure it will work again. I just cannot see it ever working for me. Like Jenn said, for those of us who haven't experienced it, it is hard to imagine. And, I still cannot forget the sheer number of Moroccan men I saw in cyber cafes practicing their love poems, primping for the web cams and then trying to pick me up after it was all over.

Exactly.

One thing I'm curious about - for those of you who did meet online.... Have you discussed with your SO the circumstances behind your online meeting? How did you distinguish the motives of your own SO who may have been in the cyber cafe with lots of others who were specifically looking for American women?

Edited October 26, 2006 by jenn3539

[ya falaha! 0]

My husband is a network admin. When we met he was working at a net cafe right across the street from his home. He was bored so he decided to go into a chatroom to waste some time. I've been in this and a couple other net cafes in Egypt. I saw a few young guys chatting on Yahoo but they were chatting in Arabic. I also saw some girls online too. I never saw anyone primping for the cam or practicing "lines" to use on women. Of course I didn't spend entire days in there so who knows what went on when I wasn't there. The funny thing was that since Mohamed lived directly across the street from this place I could hear the Yahoo dings and other noises from the bedroom.

Edited October 26, 2006 by moody

[AngelK96 0]

Well, the bottom line is that if the idea of meeting and growing close to someone on the internet doesn't work for you, then you can't get out of it what those of us who it does work for get out of it. It's not a matter of being naive. I am hardly naive. I may be a more literal person, so words have a deeper meaning for me. Physicality works too, but falling into bed when words fail is the expressway to a doomed relationship, imo.

I don't believe that anyone said that it was simple, or that you get just the facts from an internet relationship. I know I didn't. We have said to read between the lines and pay attention to what is being said. You should do that in any relationship, on or off line.

The advantage that I have is that I've established relationships both ways, IRL and online, so there is no imagining for me what either is like; I've done both. If you haven't experienced both, I'm not sure how you can objectively evaluate what you haven't experienced.

ditto to that girlfriend!

same here met my husband via the net but took over a year with a visit every six months before we even decided to marry, but I had the opportunity and financial means to visit often and take my son with me. Very important also is if you have a child to at least take one time to see how well they get along. That was very important to me!

As for online relationships sometimes you are lucky and sometimes you are not same goes for meeting in person and having a relationship.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

One thing I'm curious about - for those of you who did meet online.... Have you discussed with your SO the circumstances behind your online meeting? How do you distinguish the motives of your own SO who may have been in the cyber cafe with lots of others who were specifically looking for American women?

I think my husband is rather unusual in that he had his own computer at home with internet access. He would only go to the net cafe to use the webcam on occasion with me before he bought one for himself.

We started chatting in 2001, when the internet romeos were starting to get very active. I've been hit on by dozens (maybe hundreds) of them, and am pretty good at detecting who was there for "love" and who just genuinely wanted to be friends. My husband didn't have that vibe at all *shrugs.* Even at the beginning, when we thought about being more than just friends, I felt a little weird about it, but we chatted for 4 years and I went there 3 times, which put my mind at ease. We also had mutual ICQ chat friends here in the US that we both talked to, and no one ever mentioned anything suspicious.

It's kind of hard to explain, but I guess it's something I just knew.

[honeyblonde 0]

I just wanted to add another thought on this...as we all know the ideas we have in the US, that a man and woman should date for years and possibly live together so they can "test out" what its lilke to be married are unheard of in the Middle East. My fiancee's sisters knew their husbands before they got married, but I doubt any of them could say they were "in love" with their fiancees before they got married (at least in the way we think of love in this country). His one sister told me many times that "If you think you are in love now, wait til you get married, God will give you so much more love." So I think its a commonly held belief over there that love comes after the marriage. Not saying whether this is right or wrong, but just saying that maybe these men aren't exactly "pretending" to be in love, but rather expecting that the real love will come later on...

My husband and I have discussed this subject. He said it really is more of a matter of the individual now, but yes, some men do still marry thinking love will come later. We discussed the possibility of marriage within a week of meeting, but even when I went to meet him he was still saying, "If you find I'm not someone you want to marry, please still be my friend." We were first drawn to each other intellectually, the passionate love had to come later. Funny how meeting online does that. Now that he's here and we're married, when I get paranoid and ask if he's going to divorce me, he asks me the same. Do I worry that he married me without loving me first? No, I don't care if he did. I would rather a man choose me with his mind than with other parts of his body. Do I worry that he doesn't love me now? Heck no! This man wraps himself around me every chance he gets and every night in bed at least a toe or something has to be touching between us all night or he is sticking out an arm or leg looking for a "touch" - he's the most snuggly man I ever met! Even though he tries hard not to, he also gets jealous when guys in my class talk to me after class, or if an ex is stupid enough to call. I've been married 3 times before but never been this happy so far into a marriage, even though I stayed in them all long after I knew they were over. I never feel like this one is for anything other than love.

The biggest flag for me is a big economic gap.

A huge gap in my opinion is intellectual and educational. My own sister is dating a guy now that I think is way inferior to her intellectually, and my opinion is that her biological clock is running out and she's desperate to have a baby - and they're both Americans.

I did have a friend whose husband was cheating on her and when he hit on me, I knew I had to find a way to tell her. We worked at the same company so Monday morning I sent her an e-mail and asked her "a friend's husband hit on me, should I tell that friend? She asked for details in trying to help me be sure I had actually been hit on (the guy got my number off their caller ID and called me while his wife was at work on a Saturday morning, described an explicitly sexual dream he had about me and wanted me to "meet him for coffee") After about an hour back and forth of me telling her all the things he had said, she guessed it was her husband. They went home at lunch and discussed it, and she forgave him! I dropped it, and we stayed friends. A few months later they moved away but she and I stayed in touch. She had just given birth to twins when he left her for another woman. For her, I understood why she stayed with him. She was here on a green card herself, and if she would have divorced him she would never have gotten her citizenship. She tolerated horrible treatment to be able to keep the life she had gotten used to. She wasn't from a poor country, and she could make money anywhere with her skills (she's a translator fluent in 5 languages for one). Still, she had lived here for a long time and this is home now.

szsz, in the past I have not liked you and I apologize. Maybe you're just like me and don't always say things in a way that is taken right. In this thread I have to say that I have totally agreed with you. Nobody can understand the depth you can get to know someone when all you have is an image on a cam and words typed, along with an occasionally microphone (we didn't use it much because Abdel's written English was way better than his spoken). There is something about the anonymity of the internet that can bring out the absolute worst in a man. I have over 100 men on my yahoo messenger block list, mostly Americans who think the internet is a place to look for sex partners. I also have a lot of Arab men on there who, like somebody else said, could barely speak a line of English. Frankly, after my first conversation with Abdel, I intended to block him. He was very nice, but he smoked. After about 3 conversations I was really glad I hadn't.

For those that can't understand how you can meet someone on the internet and love them - imagine this. You've quit logging onto messenger because you are sick of the jerks that hit on you. One day when you're logged on and don't know it, a guy starts talking to you that is different from the hundreds of other guys you've talked to. He doesn't hit on you, he just wants to talk to you about an intellectual topic that you mentioned in your profile. The more you talk the more you realize you love the same writers and share the same ideals. This is not because he is copying what you've told him. Sometimes he mentions an author that you love, sometimes it is you that mentions someone he loves. You find yourself meeting this person online every night for intellectual discussion. Sometimes the discussion gets a little heated if you disagree, usually it doesn't. The more you talk to this person, the more you realize that you've never been able to talk to anyone like this before, except maybe a professor at school. For me, that is when I realized I had met the man of my dreams. We still stay awake late at night having these discussions, and he's been here almost a year. This is what started our relationship, and it will be what keeps it alive forever, in my opinion. Yes, we have a great physical relationship, but that isn't what we based our relationship on. You don't have to be in the same city or even country to enjoy each others minds. When that is what people want for the foundation of their relationship, it seems to me that the internet is a pretty good way to build that foundation.

Just my 2 cents.

[morocco4ever 63]

However, I know it can work - I have seen it work, and I am sure it will work again. I just cannot see it ever working for me. Like Jenn said, for those of us who haven't experienced it, it is hard to imagine. And, I still cannot forget the sheer number of Moroccan men I saw in cyber cafes practicing their love poems, primping for the web cams and then trying to pick me up after it was all over.

Exactly.

One thing I'm curious about - for those of you who did meet online.... Have you discussed with your SO the circumstances behind your online meeting? How did you distinguish the motives of your own SO who may have been in the cyber cafe with lots of others who were specifically looking for American women?

In detail...lol

From the first time I talked I just assumed he was just another foreigner in search of a green card. I played with him relentlessy. I found out later that I was so wrong about his intentions, and I felt really bad. I was doing to him what I hate most, using people for your own gain. My gain was amusement. I did confess to him of what I did and he forgives me, but bottom line, its cruel to play with someones heart.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

We were first drawn to each other intellectually, the passionate love had to come later. Funny how meeting online does that.

One of the things that I found beneficial about an online relationship is that there isn't much to do other than talk. Oh sure, you can play yahoo pool, or listen to some music together, but if you're talking for one, two, three, four years, you have to really really talk to keep the relationship going. You can't carry on much in the way of substantive conversation if all you're saying is "I love you...no I love you more..."

[Together4ever 1]

I know my opinions aren't generally agreed with here, but I do want to say although generalizations like many made here are very easy to slide off the fingers, there are also instances of people meeting and just enjoying each other's company and conversation before they even begin to consider all these factors being tossed about as red flags to fraud, and true and real relationships can and do develop from them.

[AngelK96 0]

We were first drawn to each other intellectually, the passionate love had to come later. Funny how meeting online does that.

One of the things that I found beneficial about an online relationship is that there isn't much to do other than talk. Oh sure, you can play yahoo pool, or listen to some music together, but if you're talking for one, two, three, four years, you have to really really talk to keep the relationship going. You can't carry on much in the way of substantive conversation if all you're saying is "I love you...no I love you more..."

so true

[Caladan 19]

My SO and I met online, and I still don't believe you can get to know somebody well just over the internet. I don't believe I was in love with him until we had met in person. (we also talked for over a year before we met in person.) We were interested, sure, but there's so much you can't tell.

Sure, had he lied, I could have caught him in a lie, and I'm as analytical as they come. But there's tons of little things that shape my picture of him, and almost none of them are words. It's not just lust. How does he react to a slow waitress? What's his body language around my friends? How does he treat my sisters? Is he patient in traffic? Does his mood vary with his blood sugar? (maybe that's just me.) How is he around his family?

It's like a good story. The difference between telling and showing.

[morocco4ever 63]

My husbands niece told me that my husband had talked to many women in the past. He told her that after he met me he had no desire to talk to any of the others. He told her that talking to me was different than with the other girls he had met.

Its that connection, it either feels right or it doesn't. We are comfortable with each other, to the point that silence isn't uncomfortable. Right now we are talking about why a man rapes a woman...lol....we never tire of talking, it just will be nice to have it face to face again.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

szsz, in the past I have not liked you and I apologize. Maybe you're just like me and don't always say things in a way that is taken right. In this thread I have to say that I have totally agreed with you.

No problem, sweetie. Apology accepted and I'm sure you deserve one from me too! Your eloquent post about the meeting of the minds speaks volumes to me. You put it so beautifully and I can relate so well because that's what captured me about my husband too. He's not a college grad, not an intellectual, but he's a very expressive man who is curious about the world, as am I. I must have an intellectual connection or I'm gone.

The internet requires you to make and maintain that connection, unless you're just going for breast and crotch shots, and Lord knows I met men who were heavy into that. I was relieved that he never asked for a pic of me in nighties. There was one Muslim man in Minnesota I called "Lingerie Guy" coz that's all he was interested in. I would tell him to get lost and the next week he'd forget who I was and show up in my IM to ask again. I had to block that jerk!

One thing I'm curious about - for those of you who did meet online.... Have you discussed with your SO the circumstances behind your online meeting? How did you distinguish the motives of your own SO who may have been in the cyber cafe with lots of others who were specifically looking for American women?

My husband has also been a network admin on an off since I've known him. He had a pc at home and at work. He was looking for love online, but so I, so I can't fault him for that. There were many before him and many after we met. He was just different, that's all. More sincere, more vulnerable, more respectful. He treated me like a lady and didn't avoid my more cynical moods. And he wouldn't put up with my BS and kiss my a$$. He wasn't looking to take anything from me, but to be accepted as he is.

From the first time I talked I just assumed he was just another foreigner in search of a green card. I played with him relentlessy. I found out later that I was so wrong about his intentions, and I felt really bad. I was doing to him what I hate most, using people for your own gain. My gain was amusement. I did confess to him of what I did and he forgives me, but bottom line, its cruel to play with someones heart.

I did the same thing to my man. I assumed that the 21 year age difference was a sign for him that I was nothing more than a lonely old woman desparate for male companionship. I was greatly attracted to him, but could not bring myself to take him seriously and see him as part of my future. I know that he began to see me as just teasing him and I know I hurt him terribly. I know he still loves me, but to this day, I don't think I've totally earned back all of his trust.

Sadly, one guy that I did take seriously at the time was a man who had an incredibly sexy voice, was immensely charming, said all the right things, was astutely intellectual and fascinating, but full of red flags. He would disappear for days, then appear like nothing happened. When I googled his email addys, I would get all kinds of romance sites he was using, while claiming that he wasn't looking for other women because I was "the One". When I confronted him, his excuses were lame and insulting. I let him go, but not fast enough to not feel that I wasted time with a sharlatan when I could have sent more time with the one who turned out to be the right man for me.

One of the things that I found beneficial about an online relationship is that there isn't much to do other than talk. Oh sure, you can play yahoo pool, or listen to some music together, but if you're talking for one, two, three, four years, you have to really really talk to keep the relationship going. You can't carry on much in the way of substantive conversation if all you're saying is "I love you...no I love you more..."

So true!

Edited October 26, 2006 by szsz

[doodlebug 3]

Exactly.

One thing I'm curious about - for those of you who did meet online.... Have you discussed with your SO the circumstances behind your online meeting? How did you distinguish the motives of your own SO who may have been in the cyber cafe with lots of others who were specifically looking for American women?

Well the circumstances were this:

I was home, the kids were sleeping, all the good shows had come to an end and I'm not into watchin' reruns so I thought hey, I'll go into a chatroom. I had been a member of a religious forum for years (it's where I first met Rhama a couple of years ago ) and have ALWAYS been searching deep deep for "the answer". Not at all looking for the answer this night but I was very curious about Islam. I had never known a muslim so I thought hey...lemme take a peak at the Islam chat rooms. Well they were all mostly in arabic so that was useless but after roaming around a bit *ping* there he was. I started immediately asking him about questions, saying how I admired how the women covered themselves in his country and it just spiraled from there.

He works two jobs, one as a barber and one as a salesman selling beauty products to various beauty establishments. He doesn't really start until about 3pm and so that brings him to the cafe at night. He's always loved talking to people in different countries 'cause it fascinates him, so that is what he was doing there.

How do I distinguish the motive? I dunno. I mean we weren't talking romance or anything for a while. Mostly it was, and still is, about God. About how wonderfully powerful He is, etc.

Today our conversations go like this:

how was your day? <insert day description here>

did you pray all of your prayers? <insert comment here>

how are the kids ?

then he'll talk to each of the kids...usually they try to talk arabic from one of my books to him or they'll show him something in the egypt book that we have.

then one of us will say something that we read today either in the Quran or in a related book that really moved us and we'll talk about that.

then if there is time we'll talk about life in general and what he can do to be a good muslim husband for me and what i can do to be a good muslim wife for him. (I LOVE that part )

then that's it. we do the i love you's and end it with the shahada.

is that all wrong....i.e. is that what everyone in the cafe is doing? who the heck knows. in any event the worst that can happen, other than my being heartbroken, is that i will have learned a lot about God and will have increased my faith in HIm.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

I had been a member of a religious forum for years (it's where I first met Rhama a couple of years ago )

*waves* I've logged back in over at CF *hangs head in shame* I stayed away for almost 8 months, and yet I get sucked back in