The Seceding Plutocracy

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Warren Buffet will only contribute a few thousand bucks into SS on his 2012 tax return. The exact same amount a person earning $110,000 will contribute.

That is if Warren Buffet reports enough wage and salary income. If all his income is dividends and capital gains, then he pays nothing into SS - i.e. less than a working poor person making $10,000.00 a year.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Didn't you hear? Millionaires use "roads and bridges" more than regular folks.

Well, they do. I use roads and bridges to get myself from A to B. Businesses owners - at least those that actually produce something - use them to get themselves from A to B, depend on them being there so their workforce gets themselves to work and to move materials that go into their product to as well as their product from the production site. Then they depend on them being there so the consumers can get to the distribution points to actually purchase them. Or to have them shipped. Without that, they'd have no business.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Mr. Big Dog

[james&olya 1,121]

Well, they do. I use roads and bridges to get myself from A to B. Businesses owners - at least those that actually produce something - use them to get themselves from A to B, depend on them being there so their workforce gets themselves to work and to move materials that go into their product to as well as their product from the production site. Then they depend on them being there so the consumers can get to the distribution points to actually purchase them. Or to have them shipped. Without that, they'd have no business.

And this was exactly the point Obama was making when he said "you didn't build that." He was referring to all the public infrastructure. Those who use his comment to imply he was saying anything different are either quite stupid or quite dishonest! Or both!

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

And this was exactly the point Obama was making when he said "you didn't build that." He was referring to all the public infrastructure. Those who use his comment to imply he was saying anything different are either quite stupid or quite dishonest! Or both!

I'd have to go with both on that one.

[aaydrian 479]

And this was exactly the point Obama was making when he said "you didn't build that." He was referring to all the public infrastructure. Those who use his comment to imply he was saying anything different are either quite stupid or quite dishonest! Or both!

Any time now a right winger will say along the lines of 'typical libturds...double standard...Obama campaign...play on words...Romeny not caring about poe folks...?'

[mawilson 2,133]

Businesses owners - at least those that actually produce something - use them to get themselves from A to B, depend on them being there so their workforce gets themselves to work and to move materials that go into their product to as well as their product from the production site. Then they depend on them being there so the consumers can get to the distribution points to actually purchase them. Or to have them shipped. Without that, they'd have no business.

"Workforce gets to work", "consumers get to distribution points" - you're double-counting here. Workers get paid - those business owners give them X amount of money - to get to work, and that money is taxed (when the workers pay their taxes) to pay for the roads and bridges they (workers) use.

An increasingly large part of our economy is intellectual property - non-manufacturing. Software, ideas, trade secrets, proprietary information, business plans, trademarks, copyrights, patents.

Most independent software vendors can operate out of a closet in the Caymans, or a small office in the Czech Republic. There is no reason for them to be domiciled in a high tax jurisdiction.

So yeah, by all means, make them pay their "fair share". They'll just pack up and leave.

[james&olya 1,121]

"Workforce gets to work", "consumers get to distribution points" - you're double-counting here. Workers get paid - those business owners give them X amount of money - to get to work, and that money is taxed (when the workers pay their taxes) to pay for the roads and bridges they (workers) use.

An increasingly large part of our economy is intellectual property - non-manufacturing. Software, ideas, trade secrets, proprietary information, business plans, trademarks, copyrights, patents.

Most independent software vendors can operate out of a closet in the Caymans, or a small office in the Czech Republic. There is no reason for them to be domiciled in a high tax jurisdiction.

So yeah, by all means, make them pay their "fair share". They'll just pack up and leave.

The public investment also includes all the public support for education, both K-12 as well as universities public and private. It also includes public aid to research, even the internet itself! And there are also all the law enforcement agencies, even the US State Dept that helps protect that intellectual property.

Perhaps there are changes in the tax code or international treaties that can help deal with tax scofflaws that try to hide their incomes.

[mawilson 2,133]

The public investment also includes all the public support for education, both K-12 as well as universities public and private. It also includes public aid to research, even the internet itself! And there are also all the law enforcement agencies, even the US State Dept that helps protect that intellectual property.

Perhaps there are changes in the tax code or international treaties that can help deal with tax scofflaws that try to hide their incomes.

Look, I'm not trying to minimize the importance of roads and bridges, good infrastructure and public education.

But with all due respect, roads and bridges account for less than 1% of the $3.5 trillion federal budget.

[Ban Hammer 13,736]

Look, I'm not trying to minimize the importance of roads and bridges, good infrastructure and public education.

But with all due respect, roads and bridges account for less than 1% of the $3.5 trillion federal budget.

but it does make a good red herring.

[james&olya 1,121]

Look, I'm not trying to minimize the importance of roads and bridges, good infrastructure and public education.

But with all due respect, roads and bridges account for less than 1% of the $3.5 trillion federal budget.

How much is a healthy and educated population worth to employers? How about stability in markets assured in part to a strong military that discourages other countries potential destabilizing aggression?

The list could go on and on. Much, not all perhaps, of the federal budget can be shown to indirectly support the ability of the 'entrepreneur' to be successful. And one of the key components for much of those successes is having a customer base with the available means to avail themselves of your product. That is why Henry Ford is reported to have decided to pay his workers an unusually high wage, so that they could afford his product!

The real point is that, despite the desire of many on the right to picture themselves as rugged individualists, 'self-made' men, the reality is that we are all very much in this together!

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Most independent software vendors can operate out of a closet in the Caymans, or a small office in the Czech Republic. There is no reason for them to be domiciled in a high tax jurisdiction.

So yeah, by all means, make them pay their "fair share". They'll just pack up and leave.

And yet they don't. Well, they're leaving alright. On paper. Because, it turns out that it is tough for them finding that workforce in the Caymans.

Look, I'm not trying to minimize the importance of roads and bridges, good infrastructure and public education.

But with all due respect, roads and bridges account for less than 1% of the $3.5 trillion federal budget.

That is true. A significant part - just under a third - goes to the MIC. Another significant part pays for hospitals, doctors, nurses and big pharma. Read: It all pays for jobs. But let us pretend that that isn't so.

[mawilson 2,133]

And yet they don't. Well, they're leaving alright. On paper. Because, it turns out that it is tough for them finding that workforce in the Caymans.

You're kidding, right? You haven't heard of outsourcing? Name one software vendor that DOESN'T outsource.

However, even if you were right, a company based in the Caymans can still hire developers in the US, rent office space, buy equipment. And pay no corporate taxes.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

You're kidding, right? You haven't heard of outsourcing? Name one software vendor that DOESN'T outsource.

However, even if you were right, a company based in the Caymans can still hire developers in the US, rent office space, buy equipment. And pay no corporate taxes.

So you have a foreign corporation create jobs here in the US. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

[mawilson 2,133]

So you have a foreign corporation create jobs here in the US. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

Nothing wrong with that. But why not encourage them to be domiciled in the US instead of forcing them out?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Nothing wrong with that. But why not encourage them to be domiciled in the US instead of forcing them out?

Nothing wrong with that either. Corporate income taxes are about 20% of individual income taxes today. That ratio was 50% just 50 years ago. If anything, corporate America contributes less today to the upkeep of the nation than they did in the golden years. That burden has been shifted from corporations to individuals for decades now. If lessening the burden on corporations is what will create jobs, then in light of that already lessened burden I have to ask: Where are the jobs?