Pro Choice?????

[mawilson 2,133]

Sure, you think it's murder. But that's just your opinion and it will have no effect on changing the minds of those who choose to have abortions.

Fact: When abortion is illegal the same amount of abortions are performed as when it is legal.

Fact: More of them will be done poorly since the practice is not regulated and more women will die in the process. Especially if they attempt to do it themselves.

End result: When abortion is illegal, more women die or suffer severe physical consequences from a botched illegal abortion. Same amount of fetuses are terminated.

Anyone who advocates illegalizing abortion is deluded if they think it will reduce actual abortions. What I think you want is to enjoy watching more women suffer for choosing to have an abortion. You probably want them dead for their choice.

That sickens me.

Well said, Alex!

[garya505 2]

Sure, you think it's murder. But that's just your opinion and it will have no effect on changing the minds of those who choose to have abortions.

Fact: When abortion is illegal the same amount of abortions are performed as when it is legal.

Fact: More of them will be done poorly since the practice is not regulated and more women will die in the process. Especially if they attempt to do it themselves.

End result: When abortion is illegal, more women die or suffer severe physical consequences from a botched illegal abortion. Same amount of fetuses are terminated.

Anyone who advocates illegalizing abortion is deluded if they think it will reduce actual abortions. What I think you want is to enjoy watching more women suffer for choosing to have an abortion. You probably want them dead for their choice.

That sickens me.

Your first "fact" is untrue so your conclusion is invalid.

To suggest that pro-life people want people who have abortions dead is ridiculous (you're just trying to demonize your opposition to discredit their argument).

Anyway, you are avoiding the real question, when does the embryo/fetus/baby have it's own right to life, equal to yours?

[ChristinaM 0]

I believe that the right to life begins at birth. That's when your right to remain alive begins, in my mind.

I'd like to add the caveat that I don't agree with abortions after the first trimester unless there is a valid medical reason - I think three months is long enough to discover that you're pregnant and do something about it if you so choose. I also consider a foetus with serious defects only discovered in the later stages of pregnancy to be a valid medical reason; it's one thing to be expecting a baby, it's a whole different ball game to suddenly discover that said baby is going to require 24 hour support for the rest of its life.

Gary, I found your comment about "demonising the opposition" interesting - is that not what VP (as an example of the anti-choice voices on this thread) is doing when she calls any woman who has an abortion for whatever reason a "murderer"?

[garya505 2]

I believe that the right to life begins at birth. That's when your right to remain alive begins, in my mind.

I'd like to add the caveat that I don't agree with abortions after the first trimester unless there is a valid medical reason - I think three months is long enough to discover that you're pregnant and do something about it if you so choose. I also consider a foetus with serious defects only discovered in the later stages of pregnancy to be a valid medical reason; it's one thing to be expecting a baby, it's a whole different ball game to suddenly discover that said baby is going to require 24 hour support for the rest of its life.

Gary, I found your comment about "demonising the opposition" interesting - is that not what VP (as an example of the anti-choice voices on this thread) is doing when she calls any woman who has an abortion for whatever reason a "murderer"?

So can you define "serious defects"? What if the baby will only require 23 hour support, or 12 hour support, or 4 hour support? Where is your cut-off for the minimum quality of life required for the right to life?

Defining the killing of an unborn baby as murder (implying the potential for prosecution under the law) is not the same as personally wanting someone dead (implying the commission of premeditated murder).

I can tell in your heart you know abortion is wrong.

http://www.feministsforlife.org

http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org

[mawilson 2,133]

I can tell in your heart you know abortion is wrong.

In your heart you probably know that sex for pleasure is wrong too, but I'm sure

that doesn't stop you from shagging your girlfriend senseless.

[garya505 2]

I can tell in your heart you know abortion is wrong.

In your heart you probably know that sex for pleasure is wrong too, but I'm sure

that doesn't stop you from shagging your girlfriend senseless.

Yeah, I tried to tell her it's wrong but she wouldn't buy it and she makes me do it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So can you define "serious defects"? What if the baby will only require 23 hour support, or 12 hour support, or 4 hour support? Where is your cut-off for the minimum quality of life required for the right to life?

Who knows - Isn't that up to the lawmakers to define?

[Peikko 1,575]

It's futile trying to change pople's minds on this one. That said, it seems to me to be very arrogant to stand holier than thou and condemn someone's actions when you have no concept of the conditions that lead up to them.

I sincerely hope that I never have to make such an agonising decision, for whatever reason. It might behove some of you to walk in the shoes of the desperate to at least bring a little compassion into your arguments.

[Kez/JWolf 6]

well said purple hibiscus......

Kezzie

[Veiled Princess 1]

is that not what VP (as an example of the anti-choice voices on this thread) is doing when she calls any woman who has an abortion for whatever reason a "murderer"?

Please don't misquote me... I never said "for whatever reason"... used as birth control because one is unable to control what's between her legs... that makes her a murderer

So can you define "serious defects"? What if the baby will only require 23 hour support, or 12 hour support, or 4 hour support? Where is your cut-off for the minimum quality of life required for the right to life?

Who knows - Isn't that up to the lawmakers to define?

As long as we're allowed to vote we are the lawmakers

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

is that not what VP (as an example of the anti-choice voices on this thread) is doing when she calls any woman who has an abortion for whatever reason a "murderer"?

Please don't misquote me... I never said "for whatever reason"... used as birth control because one is unable to control what's between her legs... that makes her a murderer

So can you define "serious defects"? What if the baby will only require 23 hour support, or 12 hour support, or 4 hour support? Where is your cut-off for the minimum quality of life required for the right to life?

Who knows - Isn't that up to the lawmakers to define?

As long as we're allowed to vote we are the lawmakers

Yes we are. And abortion is currently legal for the most part (with some restrictions).

But as I said - I don't think its appropriate that this extreme case (which has long since been lost by the wayside) be used as ammunition to rubbish a whole spectrum of thought on "pro-choice" issues.

Edited October 26, 2006 by erekose

[garya505 2]

It's futile trying to change pople's minds on this one. That said, it seems to me to be very arrogant to stand holier than thou and condemn someone's actions when you have no concept of the conditions that lead up to them.

I sincerely hope that I never have to make such an agonising decision, for whatever reason. It might behove some of you to walk in the shoes of the desperate to at least bring a little compassion into your arguments.

Actually it's not futile. I know people who have bought into the pro-abortion viewpoint but later have come to change their minds. If I can change one person's mind and save the life of one unborn child, any amount of argument is worth the effort. I don't make moral judgments on people who have chosen abortion.

I have a lot of compassion for the desperate women who choose abortion. They are only desperate because we have failed to meet their needs and they feel it is the only solution. I also have compassion for the unborn children being killed.

[Karen_L 1]

Once a baby is ready to be born, it's no longer "living and growing" inside the woman.

Also, I think that the government should have to right to regulate this freedom, as it does with other freedoms. But absolutely denying this option is wrong, imo.

OK, can you define "ready to be born" then?

Not to beat a dead horse but...

I honestly didn't see this yesterday and I'd like to respond. One could define "ready to be born" as beginning once it is determined that the woman has gone into labor. One could also define it as beginning in the 30th week of pregnancy, when most doctors agree a baby would be able to survive outside of its mother's body. Others would say it begins at the start of the 3rd trimester. I would go with the latter definition, personally. I think that limiting legal abortion to the first 25 weeks of pregnancy is a reasonable regulation, which would provide a great deal of time for a woman to exercise her choice. Also, statistically speaking, as it is nearly 90% of abortions take place within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy (link) (granted, those statistics are from the 1990's. I was unable to find more recent ones, but as the numbers seemed stable throughout the 90's, I posted it more or less assuming they have remained more or less the same since 2000).

[PsychoKat 0]

Wow, I've been away a couple of days and just now read through this.

Personally I can't condemn the woman as I've seen some do here. To feel so desperate, so completely overwhelmed and so alone, that shooting oneself seems the only way out of the situation would have to be horrible, shoot I had to ####### my finger with a lance when I was in biology to type my blood and it was not easy to cause that tiny bit of harm to myself. I can't imagine the idea of reaching the point desperation overwhelms self preservation but I know it does happen...and its sad when it does.

I do believe she needs some very serious assistance, because she obviously felt she also could not remove herself from the situation with her partner, so much so that again the possibility of killing herself seemed easier than removing herself from the relationship. This is a very serious problem and without help, and help for the remaining children she might continue this type of chain along with her children.

So far as the abortion issue, I myself am pro-choice. Although I myself would never be able live with myself if I were to intentionally abort a baby, I would not hold it against another....I've seen children so badly abused by parents that didnt really want them but kept them because they felt they had to "take responsibilty for their actions" and that equated to keeping a child they didn't want as a penance for having sex. I'd rather think of an unborn child being aborted than a living breathing innocent child trying to figure out how the very people that according to all the world are suppoed to be the ones that love them more than anything, can hurt them so bad.

Now I know this part was pages back but I just had to say something about it. Whenever the subject of abortion comes up religion is brought into it, and personally I have a problem with that for a couple of reasons. For one our laws in the US are are supposed to be separate of religion and for good reason..not everyone holds the same religious values, personally I don't want the law to force me into complying with someone else's religious belief system...considering how strongly people hold to their own personal belief systems I can't imagine anyone would care much for that. What if the majority believed in ritual human sacrifice, would those who were Christains want the law forciing them into performing human sacrifices because the majority held to a belief system that did?

And the other reason is that people don't seem to think through the validity of what they are saying such quotes like the following:

First of all, I'm not talking about Jesus I'm talking about God.

Go back and read the old testament to see how forgiving he was... I hope He doesn't waste his mercy on baby killers.

In the old testiment in Exodus, God ordered Pharaoh to release the Israelites from their slavery and when Pharaoh went against Gods orders he visited 10 plagues on Egypt and the 10th plague was the death of the first born males in all of Egypt.

So taken literally....God was a baby killer. Pharaoh was the one that was offending God here...but innocents were killed for it. So....hmmm that just doesn't work.

[dalegg 143]

Fact: When abortion is illegal the same amount of abortions are performed as when it is legal.

Fact: More of them will be done poorly since the practice is not regulated and more women will die in the process. Especially if they attempt to do it themselves.

End result: When abortion is illegal, more women die or suffer severe physical consequences from a botched illegal abortion. Same amount of fetuses are terminated.

Source on these please.