Congress may be divided on Immigration, but Americans are not

[rellik 0]

Then where did the rest of the statements come from? For me, one sentence out of a few paragraphs doesn't change my mind about what was written. Seriously, I'm asking to try and understand where you are coming from....

And there we have it, the rational that prompts most of you 'get the illegals outa here' argument. Essentially, you have your cake and you want to eat it, regardless of the harm your culture/consumarism does to the rest of the world.

The US is full of you wonderful upright citizens. My mind boggles at your one dimensional personalities and you're "I'm alright Jack" mentality. Oh, and even better than that, you like to dabble in external politics tell other nationalities how to behave and try to bully them into a behaviour or religious belief that conforms with the American view of the world, but only if in doing so the US gets some benefit...like say oil.

It's easy to be contented in your fat cat society and pour scorn on the lesser mortals who don't have the 'high morality' that you do.

Luckily, in real life not all Americans behave like this, or have such shallow beliefs.

Be thankful you, who are so passionate about the scurge of the illegals, have nothing more pressing to worry about in your day to day life.

Oh, I know my words don't affect you, still, maybe one day, more people will try to view the whole world as their home and not some abitrary piece of land they happen to have been born in.

Edited October 24, 2006 by rellik

[mawilson 2,133]

it's ok, we'll watch you dance and dodge. when are you going to prove that americans building walls and laying mines gives the us a bad name around the world?

People around the world don't like walls. They like mines even less.

[Peikko 1,575]

You're very funny.

Of course I can't go out and produce statistics just like that. However, I don't think it's rocket science to realise that bullying tacktics and isolationist policies are going to increase hostility to the US by other nations.

Oh, and some interseting statistical analysis on the US public's view on Immigration can be found here:

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=274

[PlatyPius 5]

Ok, so what happens next? Great you say, now there is work for the legal US population, excellent, problem solved. So, Joe American heads off to get a job previously performed by an illegal. Hold on a minute though, the illegal was being paid less than minimum wage. Does Joe American want to be paid less than minimum wage? Heck no, and to be honest, why should he?

I keep hearing about this stuff - illegals are paid below minimum wage. I personally know an illegal, who got paid at least $ 8 dollars/hr. I do not think it is below minimum. And we are talking about factory job (not farm work or outdoor type of work) in North Indiana.

Is there any study that actually statistically show % of illegals who are working for below minimum wage ? I mean a recent study.

The illegals who work where I do make the same wage as the legal workers, which is $8.00 - $9.00/hour. These are assembly positions in central Indiana.

[Peikko 1,575]

The US is full of you wonderful upright citizens. My mind boggles at your one dimensional personalities and you're "I'm alright Jack" mentality. Oh, and even better than that, you like to dabble in external politics tell other nationalities how to behave and try to bully them into a behaviour or religious belief that conforms with the American view of the world, but only if in doing so the US gets some benefit...like say oil.

It's easy to be contented in your fat cat society and pour scorn on the lesser mortals who don't have the 'high morality' that you do.

Luckily, in real life not all Americans behave like this, or have such shallow beliefs.

Be thankful you, who are so passionate about the scurge of the illegals, have nothing more pressing to worry about in your day to day life.

Oh, I know my words don't affect you, still, maybe one day, more people will try to view the whole world as their home and not some abitrary piece of land they happen to have been born in.

Ok, please substitue 'America is full of' with, this thread is full of Americans who...I used a broad brush because these people are those you hear most often. The people with the more reasonable views and better constructed arguments generally seem to keep a lower profile which is at best unfortunate.

The illegals who work where I do make the same wage as the legal workers, which is $8.00 - $9.00/hour. These are assembly positions in central Indiana.

So thee advantage to the business is?

I am guessing the business is saving money somewhere along the line, probably business taxes?

Edited October 24, 2006 by Purple_Hibiscus

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

It is obvious where majority of US Citizens, legals residents and intending Legal immigrants stand on this Issue.

Vast Majority Agree that Illegal Aliens are hurting the security, Prosperity & Future of the USA.

makes a nice quote but if you read the original article that started this thread, you will know that this is quite simply UNTRUE.

From the first post in this thread

But an overwhelming majority -- between two-thirds and three-quarters in every major poll -- would like to see Congress address the problem with a combination of tougher enforcement and for the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants already living and working here.

As I stated It is obvious where majority of US Citizens, legals residents and intending Legal immigrants stand on this Issue.

I am guessing the business is saving money somewhere along the line, probably business taxes?

What Little money is saved is nothing compared to the 10 + Billion ILLEGAL ALIENS cost USA Annually

Edited October 24, 2006 by Addie_Goodvibes

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

The High Cost of Cheap Labor

Among the findings

Based on Census Bureau data ( whihc is inaccurate and grosly Underestimates the amount of Illegals in USA), the study estimates that households headed by illegal aliens used $10 billion more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002. These figures are only for the federal government; costs at the state and local level are also likely to be significant. The study also finds that if illegals were given amnesty, the fiscal deficit at the federal level would to nearly $29 billion.

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.

Other findings regarding Illegal Immigartion!

Mexico is NOT a poor country. By sending its teeming masses to our country, that status keeps on rising. Mexico has more resources per square mile than the U.S. and plenty of money to take care of its own people. Why should the taxpayers of this country subsidize Mexico's corruption?

Illegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. 33 percent of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.

Illegal aliens are NOT doing work Americans won't do. What jobs won't Americans do? In most states, Americans still clean their own houses, do their own landscaping, clean hotel rooms, work in restaurants and fast food places, paint houses, DO CONSTRUCTION WORK, work in airports, etc. - just like we have the past 200 years before "our" government allowed these people to invade our country. There are 18 million Americans who cannot find a job, so illegal aliens who are coming here to work do so at peril to American workers.

Illegal aliens absolutely do not contribute more than they cost. Certainly the millions in prison and on welfare aren't contributing a dime to our economy, and the ones who are working often are paid in cash with no deductions for taxes at all. The ones who use fraudulent social security numbers and qualify to pay taxes and social security have so many deductions for dependents that they pay little if any taxes. We have seen them pay less than $100 in taxes and get back $4,000 refunds (thanks to earned income tax credits and multiple dependents).Some bargain, huh?

Without illegal aliens, the price of agricultural products and other goods and services will NOT soar. The definitive study on this subject is the University of Iowa's "How Much Is That Tomato?" The study concludes that 'since labor is such a small component of the end-price of agricultural products (which includes price to the growers, transportation costs, processing /storage costs, grocers' profit, etc.), using minimum wage workers instead of illegal aliens would increase prices of agricultural products by approximately 3 percent in the summer and 4 percent in the winter ... hardly the making of $10 heads of lettuce, $25 hamburgers, $1,000 per night Days Inn hotel rooms like the pro-illegal alien lobby claims.

Consumers are NOT benefiting from lower labor costs. Again, it's CEOs and business owners who benefit from taxpayer subsidies for their illegal alien workers. The Big Three automakers say they moved so many jobs to Mexico because their labor costs are 80 percent less than in America. Anybody notice the price of new cars spiraling downward under NAFTA

So, before you believe the prevalent pack of lies perpetuated by the illegal alien advocates, which makes billions off this government-sanctioned criminal activity, ask yourself who's saying this garbage and look at what they have to gain. Whose side are you on, and what are YOU doing to save your state and country from this cancer?

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

People around the world don't like walls. They like mines even less.

People Legally in America Don't like criminals, People in America Do not like to have to Pay Billions of $ for freeloaders who contribute Nothing to society except drive dopwn the economy and commit criminal

Parents of legal American Children do not want thie rkids futures to suffer from the dispicable acts of Illegal Aliens

Peopl in legally living in America Do Not want to have to worry about another 9/11 type attack sponsored by Countries South of our border,

SO WHO GIVES A DAMN WHO LIKES WALLS,

If countries around the world look poorly on USA building a wall to protect the fredom and prosperity of the nation from this spreading Cancer of Illegal Aliens, then these Countires can come in to the USA and take in all illegal Aliens & also bring in more Aliemns & terrorist from South of USA border into their countries. We'll will see how they change their mind about walls.

[Marc and Olga 0]

QUOTE(Heina @ Oct 23 2006, 10:43 AM)

Also, what if they had been paying income taxes already, but hadn't claimed their refunds? Do those still get higher tax rates?

WHAT REFUND THEPOOR PERSON WHOSE SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER IS PAYING THE TAXES. AND THE ILLEGAL WHO USED MY NUMBER CLAIMED 13 DEPENDENTS SO HE PAID NO TAX.

THEY CAN NOT GET A LEGAL SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER SO CHEW ON THAT

I am guessing you learned this through the audit that you most likely received and could not produce the 13 dependants? Were you then responsible for the taxes owed by this person?

I am curious because a few years ago I lost my wallet, complete with SSC and I do have concerns that this MAY happen to me...someday!

I have reported it to the SSA and have received a NEW SSC, however it does not change the fact that there is a copy of my SSC out there...somewhere!

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

The High Cost of Cheap Labor

Among The Findings

Based on Census Bureau data ( which is inaccurate and grossly Underestimates the amount of Illegals in USA), the study estimates that households headed by illegal aliens used $10 billion more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002. These figures are only for the federal government; costs at the state and local level are also likely to be significant. The study also finds that if illegals were given amnesty, the fiscal deficit at the federal level would to nearly $29 billion.

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.

Other findings regarding Illegal Immigration!

Mexico is NOT a poor country. By sending its teeming masses to our country, that status keeps on rising. Mexico has more resources per square mile than the U.S. and plenty of money to take care of its own people. Why should the taxpayers of this country subsidize Mexico's corruption?

Illegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. 33 percent of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.

Illegal aliens are NOT doing work Americans won't do. What jobs won't Americans do? In most states, Americans still clean their own houses, do their own landscaping, clean hotel rooms, work in restaurants and fast food places, paint houses, DO CONSTRUCTION WORK, work in airports, etc. - just like we have the past 200 years before "our" government allowed these people to invade our country. There are 18 million Americans who cannot find a job, so illegal aliens who are coming here to work do so at peril to American workers.

Illegal aliens absolutely do not contribute more than they cost. Certainly the millions in prison and on welfare aren't contributing a dime to our economy, and the ones who are working often are paid in cash with no deductions for taxes at all. The ones who use fraudulent social security numbers and qualify to pay taxes and social security have so many deductions for dependents that they pay little if any taxes. We have seen them pay less than $100 in taxes and get back $4,000 refunds (thanks to earned income tax credits and multiple dependents).Some bargain, huh?

Without illegal aliens, the price of agricultural products and other goods and services will NOT soar. The definitive study on this subject is the University of Iowa's "How Much Is That Tomato?" The study concludes that 'since labor is such a small component of the end-price of agricultural products (which includes price to the growers, transportation costs, processing /storage costs, grocers' profit, etc.), using minimum wage workers instead of illegal aliens would increase prices of agricultural products by approximately 3 percent in the summer and 4 percent in the winter ... hardly the making of $10 heads of lettuce, $25 hamburgers, $1,000 per night Days Inn hotel rooms like the pro-illegal alien lobby claims.

Consumers are NOT benefiting from lower labor costs. Again, it's CEOs and business owners who benefit from taxpayer subsidies for their illegal alien workers. The Big Three automakers say they moved so many jobs to Mexico because their labor costs are 80 percent less than in America. Anybody notice the price of new cars spiraling downward under NAFTA

So, before you believe the prevalent pack of lies perpetuated by the illegal alien advocates, which makes billions off this government-sanctioned criminal activity, ask yourself who's saying this garbage and look at what they have to gain. Whose side are you on, and what are YOU doing to save your state and country from this CANCER

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The illegals who work where I do make the same wage as the legal workers, which is $8.00 - $9.00/hour. These are assembly positions in central Indiana.

So the advantage to the business is?

Having a supply of workers at the depressed pay rate of $8 - $9 / hour that would likely not be available w/o an illegal work force that works for whatever peanuts some profiteer is willing to throw at them.

[Heracles 417]

How's this for a solution...

* Build a wall to stem illegal immigrants and the biggest threat which is terrorists, criminals, gang members and drug dealers from entering the country..

* Then heavily fine any business which employs illegal immigrants. Also deport any illegal immigrants caught.

Businesses will then be forced to hire American workers. If, as some say, the illegal immigrants where doing jobs that Americans don't want to do, the employer will be forced to increase the pay rate to find legitimate workers. Therefore, this is a win/win situation for the 35,000,000 Americans living in poverty.

* Then and only then can the US government develop a new guest worker program, as stated by the president, which will allow decent and honest Mexicans to enter the country and work. This new visa should be based on quotas. A practice used by most other countries including Canada, UK and Australia..

Edited October 25, 2006 by Infidel

[mawilson 2,133]

* Then heavily fine any business which employs illegal immigrants. Also deport any illegal immigrants caught.

Businesses will then be forced to hire American workers. If, as some say, the illegal immigrants where doing jobs that Americans don't want to do, the employer will be forced to increase the pay rate to find legitimate workers.

Not necessarily. As the person PlatyPius lovingly referred to as "the flower" pointed out,

they might outsource the jobs to other countries where labor is cheaper, such as ...

(shock! horror!) ... Mexico?

[Marc and Olga 0]

* Then heavily fine any business which employs illegal immigrants. Also deport any illegal immigrants caught.

Businesses will then be forced to hire American workers. If, as some say, the illegal immigrants where doing jobs that Americans don't want to do, the employer will be forced to increase the pay rate to find legitimate workers.

Not necessarily. As the person PlatyPius lovingly referred to as "the flower" pointed out,

they might outsource the jobs to other countries where labor is cheaper, such as ...

(shock! horror!) ... Mexico?

OOH then can our poor flock to Mexico, demand their Mexican citizenship?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

NAFTA, NAFTA, NAFTA

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11904430/site/newsweek/

The only real solution is one that North American leaders aren't talking about.

The only way to solve the most pressing problems in the region—including immigration, security, and declining competitiveness—is to create a true North American Community. No two nations are more important to the United States than Canada and Mexico, and no investment will bolster security and yield greater economic benefits for America than one that narrows the income gap between Mexico and its North American partners.

Bridging that gap was supposed to be one of the many benefits that the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) would deliver. And indeed, since NAFTA took effect in 1994, trade and investment among the United States, Mexico and Canada have nearly tripled, making North America the world's largest free-trade area in terms of territory and gross domestic product (GDP). Yet the income gap has widened: the annual per capita GDP of the United States ($43,883) today is more than six times that of Mexico ($6,937).

NAFTA has been inadequate in other ways as well. The agreement made no provisions for cushioning economic downturns like the Mexican peso crisis of 1994-95. It created no credible institutions that operate on a truly regional basis. Thus, after terrorists struck New York and Washington on September 11, 2001, the Bush administration unilaterally tightened security on its international borders while Ottawa and Mexico City reverted to their traditional ambivalence toward Washington.

Illegal immigration has increased and if anything, NAFTA has inadvertently fueled immigration by encouraging foreign investment near the U.S.-Mexican border, which in turn serves as a magnet for workers in central and southern Mexico. As a result, the number of undocumented Mexican workers who live in the United States has skyrocketed in the NAFTA era, from an estimated 1 million in the mid-1990s to about 6 million today. One of every six undocumented immigrants is under 18 years old, and since the mid-1990s the fastest growth of the population has occurred in states like Arizona and North Carolina that had relatively small numbers of foreign-born residents in the past.