Congress may be divided on Immigration, but Americans are not

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

Unfortunately Mexico has a right to be Mexico. And the USA has a right to be the USA.

A lot of Mexico's problems are self inflicted. It is not up to anyone except for Mexico to fix its own problems. Unfortunately it has become the policy of Mexico to dump its poverty and unemployment on the USA on a massive scale as its policy solution.

The USA has a right to protect its own best interests in this case to protect our country. The USA is not about Mexicanizing our own country.

Until the Mexican people end their corrupt oligarchic government and cease to double their population every 25 years...I see that the USA has no other option but to protect our own best interests.

The USA has increased its population by 1/3 in roughly 40 years mostly by immigration. Mexico has repeatedly doubled its own population in 25 year increments through internal births.

Who controls their own national destiny? Whose fault is that? It is up to Mexico to fix its own problems, not America. Letting them all come here is a non-solution that is detrimental to America. Importing poverty for cheap labor that doesn't pay for itself is only helping rich exploiters while hurting the broader American society.

Mexico already supplies the biggest share of both legal and illegal immigration into America. Is this the diversity the liberal left crows so much about? It is time for a huge change in policy. America should never let one country or region dominate immigration. Otherwise we will become 2 countries within a country.

That is the reason why Illegal ALiens do NOT save USA $ the Cost USA its future.

Edited October 24, 2006 by Addie_Goodvibes

[Heracles 417]

Either way, we'll be spending lots of money. We can either waste it on a wall, or use it where it can be of some assistance.

Interesting point but how about the fact that the world has spent hundreds of billions of dollars on Africa yet most people there are still dirt poor?

The US should not give anyone any money considering that the US donates the most to the world yet is most hated around the world, as Purple Hibiscus pointed out..

[Heracles 417]

aw, illegals getting kicked around...if an illegal takes your job..then you are either a lazy or ###### stupid...

you were born here and someone who does not speak the language.. beats out an u.s. citizen..then my amigo, you are indeed a bottom feeder..hurry up, jerry springer is starting..

How does one help the 35,000,000 Americans living in poverty if Mexicans can simply walk in and take the jobs opportunities from them? Does not matter if the job is the lowest of lows. At least it provides opportunities for the 35,000,000 Americans to grow..

Yet what some are indirectly saying is screw the 35,000,000 Americans who are in poverty because there are poorer Mexicans over the boarder.

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

It is obvious where majority of US Citizens, legals residents and intending Legal immigrants stand on this Issue.

Vast Majority Agree that Illegal Aliens are hurting the security, Prosperity & Future of the USA.

It has to be stopped, giving foreign aid to countries South of the border will not help the problem,Building a Wall will help prevent more entering.

Granting Amnesty will Not help and will only create a more dependent population with no skill or ability to help the USA economy.

By allowing Illegal ALiens to remain ,the USA wil continue to fork out 10 Billions / year, will be forced to shut down more medical facilities, Education systems will suffer from lack of adequate funding -resources to accomodate illegals, Crime will continue to rise, ID theft will continue, and slowly the USA Middle Class will be pushed closer to poverty. And among the worst possible senarios that is very real and possible is another 9/11 type attack, where terrorist will come across Southern Border Aided by Countries south of USA, terrorist cells are already resding in the US and used the southern border to enter with the help of countries South of USA border. USA is being invaded by criminals, terrorists, drug smugglers,

And a small % of Illegal workers that do NOT help the economy only hurt the future of USA.

In order to preserve the freedoms and prosperity & Future for USA and Future Generations.

Illegal Aliens have to be stopped, enforcement should be Harsh for employers who hire Illegals, Foriegn countries that aide in Illegals, and Illegala Aliens who enter or are currently in the USA.

[eric&gen 0]

The president of Mexico needs to take control of his people to make his country better some how to keep them from crossing over the borders making life harder on us.

[Peikko 1,575]

What is interesting to me, is the people that persist in believing problems like illegal immigration have simple solutions. Enforce current employment legislation! Make employment legislation tougher! Build a wall and keep them out!

All very nice but, take just one example. The government cracks down on employment regulations and manages, somehow, to police this to the point where it isn’t possible to work unless you are a legal and bone fide.

Ok, so what happens next? Great you say, now there is work for the legal US population, excellent, problem solved. So, Joe American heads off to get a job previously performed by an illegal. Hold on a minute though, the illegal was being paid less than minimum wage. Does Joe American want to be paid less than minimum wage? Heck no, and to be honest, why should he?

So Mr Employer does some calculations. He can pay Joe American the proper wage for the work being done but his product has to increase in price. Now, Mr American consumer goes, hang on a minute, I don’t want to pay this much for my XYZ. Effectively, he’s not prepared to pay the ‘true’ price for this product. What happens next?

Well, what has happened in the past when a product cannot be produced in the US for a price Mr American consumer is willing to pay? The product is produced in a country where the wages are lower (at the moment, China appears to be the country of choice.)

To be honest, I am all for paying proper wages. “Illegals” and anyone who works for below minimum wage are are currently being exploited and I think you will find if you do your research that there is a net gain for the US because there are “illegals” working in the US.

I am genuinely sorry that I have not come up with a viable solution to this, and other difficult problems. However, I am not the one getting high blood pressure thinking about how terrible it is that all these people get to live in the US without going through the proper channels and coming up with these quite frankly inhumane propositions and unworkable solutions put forward simply because ‘something has to be done’.

I do however believe that these questions should be looked at by government and something more than a band aid applied. However as long as there is this highly vocal minority who are in favor of these cosmetic solutions, illegal immigration is likely to remain an insoluble problem.

As to those that seem to think, because I am asking the drum bashers to stop and think if what they are advocating makes any sense beyond the ‘feel good’ good factor, that somehow means I embrace socialism/communism as a panacea, or that I am anti-American or that because I am British I support UK immigration policies, that’s just pathetic.

Either way, we'll be spending lots of money. We can either waste it on a wall, or use it where it can be of some assistance.

Interesting point but how about the fact that the world has spent hundreds of billions of dollars on Africa yet most people there are still dirt poor?

The US should not give anyone any money considering that the US donates the most to the world yet is most hated around the world, as Purple Hibiscus pointed out..

Interesting, show me where I said that?

[BASIL 0]

QUOTE(Heina @ Oct 23 2006, 10:43 AM)

Also, what if they had been paying income taxes already, but hadn't claimed their refunds? Do those still get higher tax rates?

WHAT REFUND THEPOOR PERSON WHOSE SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER IS PAYING THE TAXES. AND THE ILLEGAL WHO USED MY NUMBER CLAIMED 13 DEPENDENTS SO HE PAID NO TAX.

THEY CAN NOT GET A LEGAL SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER SO CHEW ON THAT

[Heracles 417]

As to those that seem to think, because I am asking the drum bashers to stop and think if what they are advocating makes any sense beyond the 'feel good' good factor, that somehow means I embrace socialism/communism as a panacea, or that I am anti-American or that because I am British I support UK immigration policies, that's just pathetic.

If you read the article you would have seen that the UK is having a crackdown on immigrants. Which says a lot considering these guys are technically legal, as they will be in the EU soon. Obviously the UK does not need to build a wall to stem the flow of immigrants as they are an island.

Whereas the US has a massive problem with illegal immigrants, much larger than the UK legal immigrant issue. There are countries to the south of the US that would love the see the collapse and destruction of the US yet you sit here and say that the US should simply extend and olive branch to them... Which also means giving the terrorists a green light in entering from the southern border..

The US should not give anyone any money considering that the US donates the most to the world yet is most hated around the world, as Purple Hibiscus pointed out..

Interesting, show me where I said that?

Well you insinuated that Americans are simply a consumer driven, capitalistic society with little or no regards to the rest of the world. So I pointed out how the US, the same country you described previously, has donated more money than most other nations in the world.. How much does Iran, China, Russia and Venezuela donate to the rest of the world???

Edited October 24, 2006 by Infidel

[tom&tata 2]

Ok, so what happens next? Great you say, now there is work for the legal US population, excellent, problem solved. So, Joe American heads off to get a job previously performed by an illegal. Hold on a minute though, the illegal was being paid less than minimum wage. Does Joe American want to be paid less than minimum wage? Heck no, and to be honest, why should he?

I keep hearing about this stuff - illegals are paid below minimum wage. I personally know an illegal, who got paid at least $ 8 dollars/hr. I do not think it is below minimum. And we are talking about factory job (not farm work or outdoor type of work) in North Indiana.

Is there any study that actually statistically show % of illegals who are working for below minimum wage ? I mean a recent study.

Edited October 24, 2006 by tom&tata

[rellik 0]

And there we have it, the rational that prompts most of you 'get the illegals outa here' argument. Essentially, you have your cake and you want to eat it, regardless of the harm your culture/consumarism does to the rest of the world.

The US is full of you wonderful upright citizens. My mind boggles at your one dimensional personalities and you're "I'm alright Jack" mentality. Oh, and even better than that, you like to dabble in external politics tell other nationalities how to behave and try to bully them into a behaviour or religious belief that conforms with the American view of the world, but only if in doing so the US gets some benefit...like say oil.

It's easy to be contented in your fat cat society and pour scorn on the lesser mortals who don't have the 'high morality' that you do.

Luckily, in real life not all Americans behave like this, or have such shallow beliefs.

Be thankful you, who are so passionate about the scurge of the illegals, have nothing more pressing to worry about in your day to day life.

Oh, I know my words don't affect you, still, maybe one day, more people will try to view the whole world as their home and not some abitrary piece of land they happen to have been born in.

Your words PH!

With that said, I will say that I do agree with you PH that this problem is multi-dimensional and has to be considered from many angles. And there is not one fix-all solution to this issue. What I said yesterday; how can you help a country like Mexico, when the Government of Mexico admittedly is supporting it's citizens illegal entry into the U.S? Furthermore, Mexico (the Government) isn't respecting our borders and rights to exist as neighbors. Please don't misunderstand me, I have served this country (and continue as a civilian)and believe to the bottom of my heart that immigrants are the life blood of this country. All Americans, to one extent or another, are immigrants...I also, even though many have died, appreciate that people the world over want to come here (the good ones, the criminals are not welcome) and risk their lives to do so. And in some cases the lives of their families left behind...I certainly don't have all the answers, nor do I think anyone else has all the answers but, there are going to have to be some tough decisions made and implemented in order to correct/solve this problem.

Edited October 24, 2006 by rellik

[Peikko 1,575]

The relevance of UK immigration policy is what exactly?

I said extend an olive branch to them?

Oh, and the big one, because I don't want to bash illegals then I must somehow secretely support terrorism, or by default I want the borders to be compromised? Wow, that's a huge assumption you're making there based on what exactly?

I insinuated nothing, you decided to colour what I said in a context that fits your view of me. You believe, without a shred of evidence that I am anti-American and US is the most hated country in the world.

What I have stated and will state again is this, those Americans that promote 'bullyboy' tactics, the type of person that is falling over himself to solve illegal immigration by building walls and laying mines, gives the US a bad name around the world.

If you truly wish to engage in a discussion on US aid programmes, here's an interesting quote:

Some donate many dollars, but are low on GNI percent

Some interesting observations can be made about the amount of aid. For example:

USA’s aid, in terms of percentage of their GNP has almost always been lower than any other industrialized nation in the world, though paradoxically since 2000, their dollar amount has been the highest. (Only since 2004 have they move up from last place, by one.)

Since 1992, Japan had been the largest donor of aid, in terms of raw dollars. That was until 2001 when the United States reclaimed that position, a year that also saw Japan’s amount of aid drop by nearly 4 billion dollars (as tables and charts below will also show).

...

Commenting on the latest US pledge [of $10 billion], Julian Borger and Charlotte Denny of the Guardian (UK) say Washington is desperate to deflect attention in Monterrey from the size of its aid budget. But for more generous donors, says the story, Washington’s conversion to the cause of effective aid spending is hard to swallow. Among the big donors, the US has the worst record for spending its aid budget on itself—70 percent of its aid is spent on US goods and services. And more than half is spent in middle income countries in the Middle East. Only $3bn a year goes to South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.

— Monterrey: US Will 'Seek Advice On Spending Aid', World Bank, March 21, 2002

In addition, promises of more money were tied to more conditions, which for many developing countries is another barrier to real development, as the conditions are sometimes favorable to the donor, not necessarily the recipient. Delhi-based Centre for Science and Environment commented on the US conditional pledge of more money that:

Thus, status quo in world relations is maintained. Rich countries like the US continue to have a financial lever to dictate what good governance means and to pry open markets of developing countries for multinational corporations. Developing countries have no such handle for Northern markets, even in sectors like agriculture and textiles, where they have an advantage but continue to face trade barriers and subsidies. The estimated annual cost of Northern trade barriers to Southern economies is over US $100 billion, much more than what developing countries receive in aid.

Taken from:

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

A very interesting read if you have any interest in world poverty.

Edited October 24, 2006 by Purple_Hibiscus

[Ban Hammer 13,656]

What I have stated and will state again is this, those Americans that promote 'bullyboy' tactics, the type of person that is falling over himself to solve illegal immigration by building walls and laying mines, gives the US a bad name around the world.

all conjecture on your part without a shred of evidence to back it up.

[Peikko 1,575]

And there we have it, the rational that prompts most of you 'get the illegals outa here' argument. Essentially, you have your cake and you want to eat it, regardless of the harm your culture/consumarism does to the rest of the world.

The US is full of you wonderful upright citizens. My mind boggles at your one dimensional personalities and you're "I'm alright Jack" mentality. Oh, and even better than that, you like to dabble in external politics tell other nationalities how to behave and try to bully them into a behaviour or religious belief that conforms with the American view of the world, but only if in doing so the US gets some benefit...like say oil.

It's easy to be contented in your fat cat society and pour scorn on the lesser mortals who don't have the 'high morality' that you do.

Luckily, in real life not all Americans behave like this, or have such shallow beliefs.

Be thankful you, who are so passionate about the scurge of the illegals, have nothing more pressing to worry about in your day to day life.

Oh, I know my words don't affect you, still, maybe one day, more people will try to view the whole world as their home and not some abitrary piece of land they happen to have been born in.

Your words PH!

Yes, my words and if you look it clearly states that I am talking about those Americans who embody the worst excesses, ugly side of capitalism. The people in short who advocate these ridiculous solutions.

Ok, so what happens next? Great you say, now there is work for the legal US population, excellent, problem solved. So, Joe American heads off to get a job previously performed by an illegal. Hold on a minute though, the illegal was being paid less than minimum wage. Does Joe American want to be paid less than minimum wage? Heck no, and to be honest, why should he?

I keep hearing about this stuff - illegals are paid below minimum wage. I personally know an illegal, who got paid at least $ 8 dollars/hr. I do not think it is below minimum. And we are talking about factory job (not farm work or outdoor type of work) in North Indiana.

Is there any study that actually statistically show % of illegals who are working for below minimum wage ? I mean a recent study.

My example was simply that, an example and simplistic at that. In fact the whole thing is of course more complex and there are those who will argue that illegal immigrants drive wages downward.

However, it does seem logical that illegal workers will be paid less than legal ones, if not in the pay packet, but in economic terms. For example, if you are paying an employee illegally, are you paying employment taxes fo that person? It would seem doubtful. Those who choose to take on illegal employees must do so for a benefit. It could be that these people are employable simply because they will take on jobs that indigenous Americans will not do, or it could be that they will do these jobs at a wage that an American would not.

It is obvious where majority of US Citizens, legals residents and intending Legal immigrants stand on this Issue.

Vast Majority Agree that Illegal Aliens are hurting the security, Prosperity & Future of the USA.

Makes a nice quote but if you read the original article that started this thread, you will know that this is quite simply UNTRUE.

What I have stated and will state again is this, those Americans that promote 'bullyboy' tactics, the type of person that is falling over himself to solve illegal immigration by building walls and laying mines, gives the US a bad name around the world.

all conjecture on your part without a shred of evidence to back it up.

You don't believe it?

Odder and odder.

[Ban Hammer 13,656]

What I have stated and will state again is this, those Americans that promote 'bullyboy' tactics, the type of person that is falling over himself to solve illegal immigration by building walls and laying mines, gives the US a bad name around the world.

all conjecture on your part without a shred of evidence to back it up.

You don't believe it?

Odder and odder.

it's ok, we'll watch you dance and dodge. when are you going to prove that americans building walls and laying mines gives the us a bad name around the world?

[Carol&Marc 0]

What I have stated and will state again is this, those Americans that promote 'bullyboy' tactics, the type of person that is falling over himself to solve illegal immigration by building walls and laying mines, gives the US a bad name around the world.

all conjecture on your part without a shred of evidence to back it up.

You don't believe it?

Odder and odder.

it's ok, we'll watch you dance and dodge. when are you going to prove that americans building walls and laying mines gives the us a bad name around the world?

Or how a OLIVE BRANCH or just saying will you PLEASE not come here anymore do squat!