Where was God in Aurora massacre?

[Danno 1,228]

I love the comments such as the one bemoaning the 'fact' that god has been excluded from 'everywhere'. Do these people ever stop to think where it is they should be finding god? If they want god how about looking at the church of their choice? How about looking for him in the privacy of their own homes? Nobody has banned the bible or any other christian books. There is no 'war on christianity' going on here. If people want god they can 'find' him very easily. No, what they really want is for all of us to live in a homogenous narrow-minded society where we are all instructed from early on in what we are to believe. They do not believe in freedom of and from religion. They are really quite un-american actually!!

When you say they are unAmerican do you mean the old definition or a new one?

The reason I asked is all the things you mentioned were considered American all along.

-We lived in a more homogenous country than most places around the world

-We were narrow minded over what was good and what was bad. We pledged allegiance to the flag and even enjoyed public prayers for most of our history.

-We have one of the strongest histories where Faith was always at the forefront of all public acts and celebrations.

So by these long standing measure all who embraced these things have always been considered quite American.

if you have a new definition... please share it, it might catch on.

[james&olya 1,121]

When you say they are unAmerican do you mean the old definition or a new one?

The reason I asked is all the things you mentioned were considered American all along.

-We lived in a more homogenous country than most places around the world

-We were narrow minded over what was good and what was bad. We pledged allegiance to the flag and even enjoyed public prayers for most of our history.

-We have one of the strongest histories where Faith was always at the forefront of all public acts and celebrations.

So by these long standing measure all who embraced these things have always been considered quite American.

if you have a new definition... please share it, it might catch on.

Really! We are more homogenous! Just the opposite I think! We have citizens from just about every other nation on earth that have contributed to our background. We are the LEAST homogenous by background!

And the pledge of allegiance! How long exactly have we had this pledge, especially in its current form with the words "under God" in it? Most of our history? Maybe most of YOUR history!

And one of the most basic founding principles of this country was its freedom of (and from) religion!

[afoyoswa 178]

I love the comments such as the one bemoaning the 'fact' that god has been excluded from 'everywhere'. Do these people ever stop to think where it is they should be finding god? If they want god how about looking at the church of their choice? How about looking for him in the privacy of their own homes? Nobody has banned the bible or any other christian books. There is no 'war on christianity' going on here. If people want god they can 'find' him very easily. No, what they really want is for all of us to live in a homogenous narrow-minded society where we are all instructed from early on in what we are to believe. They do not believe in freedom of and from religion. They are really quite un-american actually!!

This. I have a hard time believing that the Pilgrims --albeit not known for being overly tolerant of religious minorities themselves despite their talk about freedom of religion-- would recognize or approve of what passes for Christianity in the public sphere these days. It might even make them want to pack up their boats and head off somewhere else where they can worship and live and believe as they please.

This insistence on trying to make sure everyone else thinks, believes, and behaves exactly the same way you do (or supporting organizations that do) makes no sense. A world where no one is trying to force religion down someone else's throat is not a secular world or an anti-Christian world: it's a respectful, sane world. Just sell your chicken sandwiches and keep your nose and your money out of things that don't concern you in any way whatsoever.

[mawilson 2,133]

God was busy welcoming new arrivals to his Kingdom of Heaven.

[Danno 1,228]

This. I have a hard time believing that the Pilgrims --albeit not known for being overly tolerant of religious minorities themselves despite their talk about freedom of religion-- would recognize or approve of what passes for Christianity in the public sphere these days. It might even make them want to pack up their boats and head off somewhere else where they can worship and live and believe as they please.

This insistence on trying to make sure everyone else thinks, believes, and behaves exactly the same way you do (or supporting organizations that do) makes no sense. A world where no one is trying to force religion down someone else's throat is not a secular world or an anti-Christian world: it's a respectful, sane world. Just sell your chicken sandwiches and keep your nose and your money out of things that don't concern you in any way whatsoever.

Well lets just compare fact to "impressions" and see if those tolerant Pilgrims wrote the nations first document to make people of all faiths feel represented.

The Mayflower Compact was the first governing document of Plymouth Colony. It was written by the Separatists, also known as the "Saints", fleeing religious persecution from James VI and I. They traveled aboard the Mayflower in 1620 along with adventurers, tradesmen, and servants, most of whom were referred to as "Strangers".

The Mayflower Compact was signed on November 11, 1620 (OS),[1] by 41 of the ship's 101 passengers,[2][3] while the Mayflower was anchored in what is now Provincetown Harbor within the hook at the northern tip of Cape Cod.[4]

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.

Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.

In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the 11th of November, in the year of the reign of our Sovereign Lord King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth, 1620.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayflower_compact

[Danno 1,228]

Really! We are more homogenous! Just the opposite I think! We have citizens from just about every other nation on earth that have contributed to our background. We are the LEAST homogenous by background!

And the pledge of allegiance! How long exactly have we had this pledge, especially in its current form with the words "under God" in it? Most of our history? Maybe most of YOUR history!

And one of the most basic founding principles of this country was its freedom of (and from) religion!

Oh I agree, lately we have become more of a collage of people but that has only happened of late. Even in the first part of the 1960's we were nearly 90% european americans which means for most of our nations history we were much more homogeneous than many other countries.

... and my point about all those homog. people before us being very much "American"

stands...... though I am not claiming thats why they are quite American, just answering your baseless assertion.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

God was busy welcoming new arrivals to his Kingdom of Heaven.

Yup.

[JohnR! 5,495]

When you say they are unAmerican do you mean the old definition or a new one?

The reason I asked is all the things you mentioned were considered American all along.

-We lived in a more homogenous country than most places around the world - Wrong. There are more flavors of christianity in America than christians in the world.

-We were narrow minded over what was good and what was bad. We pledged allegiance to the flag and even enjoyed public prayers for most of our history. - The problem is not that we were narrow minded about good and bad. The problem is that some fool themselves into deciding that something which is not good it must be automatically bad. We still pledge allegiance to the flag, if only in its adulterated form and everyone in this country is free to pray in public. In fact most people do it without others even noticing.

-We have one of the strongest histories where Faith was always at the forefront of all public acts and celebrations. - As do Iran and Israel.

So by these long standing measure all who embraced these things have always been considered quite American.- At one point, segregation was also considered quite American.

if you have a new definition... please share it, it might catch on. - These definitions are oftentimes subjective. Yours no better or more correct than mine and v.v

[afoyoswa 178]

Well lets just compare fact to "impressions" and see if those tolerant Pilgrims wrote the nations first document to make people of all faiths feel represented.

The Mayflower Compact was the first governing document of Plymouth Colony. It was written by the Separatists, also known as the "Saints", fleeing religious persecution from James VI and I. They traveled aboard the Mayflower in 1620 along with adventurers, tradesmen, and servants, most of whom were referred to as "Strangers".

The Mayflower Compact was signed on November 11, 1620 (OS),[1] by 41 of the ship's 101 passengers,[2][3] while the Mayflower was anchored in what is now Provincetown Harbor within the hook at the northern tip of Cape Cod.[4]

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.

Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.

In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the 11th of November, in the year of the reign of our Sovereign Lord King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth, 1620.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayflower_compact

Did I say somewhere that the Pilgrims were tolerant? I'm pretty sure I said the exact opposite, actually.

America is a pluralistic society, no matter how much the conservative Christian folks try to pretend otherwise. But trying to hearken back to some purer time when everything was supposedly exactly the way they want it to be now overlooks the fact that the Pilgrims and early Americans themselves probably wouldn't be any happier to be forcefed the modern, feel-good, get-rich-quick, let's-tell-everyone-how-to-behave version of Christianity than the rest of are now.

So, the Pilgrims, very much like today's conservative Christians, did not want to live under a government that does not reflect (or better yet, mandate) their exact beliefs and lifestyle, but are perfectly okay having a religion and worldview imposed upon them by the government if it is exactly the same one they already follow. So, to them, "freedom of religion" really only means that they (and only they) should be free to establish a religious government that suits their needs? I see. This must be kind of like how all men are created equal, but some are more equal than others.

I must say, it seems a lot more practical to keep a private endeavor like religion completely private, than to have people who are from all corners of the world and who believe vastly different things live under a state religion that lets some people be fully correct by ascribing to the state religion and believing the way they would have believed anyway, and paints everyone else as "un-American."

[Danno 1,228]

Ahh yes the old "segregation" defense.

First of all segregation was not really american as much as it was (and is) a world wide condition.

In fact experts tell us we in 2012 are actually more segregated now then we were 40 years ago.

So a social trend or even a localized gov't policy has nothing to do with whether individuals are "american."

But on to your larger point....... oh thats right you didn't have one.

[JohnR! 5,495]

.

First of all segregation was not really american as much as it was (and is) a world wide condition.

If anything, segregation is not a defense, so much as it is an indictment on our entire society. Segregation, as seen in the US and supported by Jim Crow laws were an American condition. The entire civilized world still cringes in disbelief that segregation existed in the USA as we were sending men into space.

[웃 910]

Wrong. There are more flavors of christianity in America than christians in the world.

Christians in America: 240 million

Christians in World: 2 Billion 200 million

[JohnR! 5,495]

Christians in America: 240 million

Christians in World: 2 Billion 200 million

<“enough food to feed a whole army” is a common example of hyperbole>

[afoyoswa 178]

Ahh yes the old "segregation" defense.

First of all segregation was not really american as much as it was (and is) a world wide condition.

In fact experts tell us we in 2012 are actually more segregated now then we were 40 years ago.

So a social trend or even a localized gov't policy has nothing to do with whether individuals are "american."

But on to your larger point....... oh thats right you didn't have one.

Perhaps if you made use of the quotation feature, it would be easier to see whose comments you are referencing. If mine, I don't see where you have a point any more lucidly than I did.

[Danno 1,228]

Perhaps if you made use of the quotation feature, it would be easier to see whose comments you are referencing. If mine, I don't see where you have a point any more lucidly than I did.

Look it's okay to be wrong... it happens

but why act like you alone could not follow the link or figure out what were my words and those of a historical document.

Anyway continue on with your notion that the pilgrims were actually modern-day Anglican church.