Does not look good

[mrsushi66 0]

aussiewench I am with you on this one. The one thing I have learned is that if people are out to screw you and get their hands on your stuff they will find a way around the pre-nup or whatever device you put in place.

On the flip side if you ask someone who has no doubt about the relationship or the SO by asking them to sign a pre-nup you sow the seed of doubt and suspision.

We can say it is in everyones best interest and such but when you try to mix business with matters of the heart you end up with a business relationship rather than a loving relationship. I am fully aware that if things end badly with Anna and I that she could get all my stuff and that is a risk I am willing to take to have the kind of relationship I want.

Paul misses Anna

Gee, I felt the same way as you... until I saw her TRYING to get all my stuff when things ended badly...

Then I was very glad I'm in a community property state, and that I had bought the cars and most of my other property prior to the marriage so they were "sole and separate".. and that I had kept a moderate level of debt after marriage, from the acquiring of the house, so she couldn't walk away with more $1,000's in appreciated equity from the house than what she actually got...

Amazingly, a friend of mine in another state, also a community property state, told his Russian immigrant wife about our divorce... she asked him "how much will he have to give her every month?". He told her "nothing...".

He told me her jaw fell on the floor, she was astonished because she thought after American divorce, husband has to send wife a check every month...

funny the stuff they hear, from each other, ya know???

-- Dan

This speaks to character not nationality. Please do not try to lump people based on where they are from. Any person who is hurt or of poor character might try to do this rather than to just split and take what they had when they entered the relationship. Course that is just my opinion.

Paul

[garya505 2]

I've noticed some assumptions made here about division of property upon divorce. State laws vary, and in "Community Property" states where property owned previous to the marriage is defined as separate property, a pre-nup is irrelevant if the assets you are concerned about are owned before the marriage.

At last reckoning, there are only 9 states that are community property states. Hmm. Not necessarily true on the separate assets either. Indeed, property owned before marriage would be deemed separate in a community property state, but let's say, for instance, that community property (income) is used to maintain that separate asset. Then effectively, co-mingling can be a bit of a problem, with resepct to equity ....

Then you just don't co-mingle and it remains Separate Property.

I've noticed some assumptions made here about division of property upon divorce. State laws vary, and in "Community Property" states where property owned previous to the marriage is defined as separate property, a pre-nup is irrelevant if the assets you are concerned about are owned before the marriage.

Even in community property states, in the absence of a prenuptual agreement, separate property may be converted to marital property. It happened to me.

Yes if you co-mingle that's true. If you weren't prepared with a pre-nup or by making sure you didn't comingle, then you're pretty much screwed.

[malutka 0]

I can't even read all the posts in this thread..cuz it makes me sick! I don't like pre-nups and if my fiancee did that to me..I would cry for days upon end. And yes, say I am immature..and yes, say I am old fashioned. Thank you God that I am! And thank you God that my husband is just as old fashioned as I am! What is wrong with this world that we even have to come to this! I think he is not the one that learned something new about his fiancee..I think that poor woman had the rude awakening!

[PurrSuede 0]

This speaks to character not nationality. Please do not try to lump people based on where they are from. Any person who is hurt or of poor character might try to do this rather than to just split and take what they had when they entered the relationship. Course that is just my opinion.

Paul

No one was trying to "lump" people based on where they are from.

I mentioned that my friend's wife is Russian, I didn't lump her into any category based on nationality.

Mentioning her nationality is not the same as stereotyping her on the basis of nationality, Paul.

Other than mentioning they have discussions with other women of their own nationality (imagine that!) and could possibly arrive at erroneous conclusions, hearing things from each other that aren't necessarily so, but that's not stereotyping, Paul... And if you're not aware that this transpires, well....

That's just my opinion... but I'm certainly not implying the original context occured BECAUSE of their nationality, in any way, shape or form, only that it was a big surprise to her that this was so.

-- Dan

[mawilson 2,133]

I can't even read all the posts in this thread..cuz it makes me sick! I don't like pre-nups and if my fiancee did that to me..I would cry for days upon end. And yes, say I am immature..and yes, say I am old fashioned. Thank you God that I am! And thank you God that my husband is just as old fashioned as I am! What is wrong with this world that we even have to come to this! I think he is not the one that learned something new about his fiancee..I think that poor woman had the rude awakening!

Let's say your husband has 10 million dollars in the bank, and you have... well, nothing.

Do you feel it's fair that you should be able to help yourself to 5 million of his dollars

in case of a divorce?

[babybunny 2]

I can't even read all the posts in this thread..cuz it makes me sick! I don't like pre-nups and if my fiancee did that to me..I would cry for days upon end. And yes, say I am immature..and yes, say I am old fashioned. Thank you God that I am! And thank you God that my husband is just as old fashioned as I am! What is wrong with this world that we even have to come to this! I think he is not the one that learned something new about his fiancee..I think that poor woman had the rude awakening!

Let's say your husband has 10 million dollars in the bank, and you have... well, nothing.

Do you feel it's fair that you should be able to help yourself to 5 million of his dollars

in case of a divorce?

I think its fair.. if my husband left me .. fiine... fkk ing take it all

I hope he choke on it..

[SirLancelot 1]

I think its fair..

I think this clearly demonstrates why it's so important and prudent to have a pre-nup. There will be women (and men) who are out there thinking exactly like this. It doesn't matter how trusting or loving one party is, the other party just wants to dig gold. Sad but true to life.

[mawilson 2,133]

It's also interesting to point out that when I bought my house, she actually signed a "sole and separate" agreement, indicating the house was NOT community property, because she had no credit report, it could not be mortgaged in her name.

I pointed that out to her, she said "oh I just tell them I didn't know what I was signing when I signed this..."

SOMEONE was coaching her in a lot of stuff...

Man oh man. Motherf'ing Russians are anything but stupid. I'm so sorry, Dan.

I remember how happy you were when you met her back in 2003-2004 and

I'm sorry it ended so badly.

[babybunny 2]

I think its fair..

I think this clearly demonstrates why it's so important and prudent to have a pre-nup. There will be women (and men) who are out there thinking exactly like this. It doesn't matter how trusting or loving one party is, the other party just wants to dig gold. Sad but true to life.

I have a marriage contract! I do not even like the idea of a pre nup.

all I give to my husband - I give freely. if he is looking at the end before we can begin

then its a dayum shame. but, the marriage contract is same as a pre nup. its lslamic law.

From a womans perspective (mine)

I had significant assets prior to my marriage to my second husband. Everyone told me to get a prenup. I refused because of my strong belief that asking for a prenup showed a lack of trust in the relationship. That it would by its very mention diminish the relationship and start it off on the wrong level. Some may think naive, I don't. I lived with him for three years also before marriage. The marriage itself only lasted a year and he ended up with way more then he was entitled to as I didn't even fight it through the courts. He had nothing when I first met him, now he has a kings ransom in comparison. Would I do same again if in same position.....you betcha. The relationship is far far more important to me than anything material. Just my 2 cents

Aussiewench, in a free society--and Australia is one--you are free to do as you choose, but others may interpret your actions as lacking the humility and maturity to learn from your past mistakes. It takes a mature and humble person to admit that their beliefs may be incorrect and that they can improve upon them for the future.

Or one could continue with one's course of actions and never learn from past experiences.

It reminds me of most gamblers at casinos. Their naive hope that they'll win the next bet inevitably leads to bad results for the vast majority.

Either ways, you're free to live the way you choose. Best of luck.

I'm just glad I'm not the insurance company insuring you.

Oh I learn from past experiences, I just don't compromise what I believe in, who I am. I do believe that each to their own when it comes to prenups, its just not in my vocabulary. Was I burned in the past, yes. Could a prenup have pretected me, definately. Would I have felt good about myself in doubting the persons intentions that I was to marry if I asked for a prenup, no. That is what is important to me and always will be, the relationship and my commitment to it. So therefore if a want for a prenup was asked of me, I in turn would then have doubts about my partners trust in me and they wouldn't be the person for me because of that. Would I abandon the relationship because I was a gold digger that seen her future go up in smoke via the prenup, definately not. I would leave purely because to me the trust is not there. I would live in a tent with the person that I loved, and I have done. Money and assets mean very little to me in the scheme of things.

I agree with you..

Edited October 24, 2006 by babybunny

[diadromous mermaid 36]

I have a marriage contract! I do not even like the idea of a pre nup.

all I give to my husband - I give freely. if he is looking at the end before we can begin

then its a dayum shame. but, the marriage contract is same as a pre nup. its lslamic law.

Interesting point. Essentially, if my understanding is correct, certain elements of the marriage contract, such as determining mahr, immediate or deferred (muwajjal), is all agreed upon and hammered out before the marriage, and as such it is really the same sort of thing, yet freely embraced in muslim marriages.

[zauberblume 0]

I can't even read all the posts in this thread..cuz it makes me sick! I don't like pre-nups and if my fiancee did that to me..I would cry for days upon end. And yes, say I am immature..and yes, say I am old fashioned. Thank you God that I am! And thank you God that my husband is just as old fashioned as I am! What is wrong with this world that we even have to come to this! I think he is not the one that learned something new about his fiancee..I think that poor woman had the rude awakening!

Let's say your husband has 10 million dollars in the bank, and you have... well, nothing.

Do you feel it's fair that you should be able to help yourself to 5 million of his dollars

in case of a divorce?

Absolutely not.

He earned that money before he met me so it is his. If he wants to share it in a settlement or use part of it to provide for his children, then that would be fair. But I'm not entitled to it.

Whatever we make during the marriage is what I would split with my husband if we were getting a divorce.

We don't need a legal contract, a prenuptial agreement, because we trust that we will be fair to each other in any circumstance.

And one of the main reasons we got married at all is because of immigration. We lived together for nearly two years. There was no other way for us to be together in America unless we got married. That is not to say that I didn't want to marry him; it is just that I don't believe in the way that America, for example, defines and redefines the institution of marriage.

It would probably be useful to at least discuss the pre-nup and how it may or may not relate to the Aff of Support? Because this is an immigration forum and both documents could potentially "run into" each other.

--Z

I have a marriage contract! I do not even like the idea of a pre nup.

all I give to my husband - I give freely. if he is looking at the end before we can begin

then its a dayum shame. but, the marriage contract is same as a pre nup. its lslamic law.

Interesting point. Essentially, if my understanding is correct, certain elements of the marriage contract, such as determining mahr, immediate or deferred (muwajjal), is all agreed upon and hammered out before the marriage, and as such it is really the same sort of thing, yet freely embraced in muslim marriages.

Of course, it is all about culture, Mermaid.

Some of us come from regions where a pre-nuptial agreement is a sign of distrust. Some of us come from regions where a pre-nuptial agreement is not even thought of because no couple ever divorces--no matter what.

For me, my prenuptial agreement is the vow that I took to be married to my husband forever. That's going to come with the good and bad, but I'm totally ready and willing to experience it.

--Z

[PurrSuede 0]

It's also interesting to point out that when I bought my house, she actually signed a "sole and separate" agreement, indicating the house was NOT community property, because she had no credit report, it could not be mortgaged in her name.

I pointed that out to her, she said "oh I just tell them I didn't know what I was signing when I signed this..."

SOMEONE was coaching her in a lot of stuff...

Man oh man. Motherf'ing Russians are anything but stupid. I'm so sorry, Dan.

I remember how happy you were when you met her back in 2003-2004 and

I'm sorry it ended so badly.

Thanks! Yeah, whatta long strange trip it's been... I could go on and on about how "heetri" (Russian word for sneaky) she's been, but there's no point to it. A pre-nup wouldn't have really done much of anything in our case.

She blew out of the marriage almost exactly at the two-year mark. As smart as she thought she was, she didn't understand "community property", that you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip, under the divorce laws of our state. She also didn't understand that it's two years from CONDITIONAL STATUS, not two years of marriage before you're "home free"... so no matter how smart she thought she was, or her coaches were, she didn't understand it all.

Well anyway, she's likely someone else's headache now... but a pre-nup really wouldn't have done diddley for me, she got the 50% of community property under the law... it wasn't much but I hope she chokes on it, all the same (to echo another's sentiment here).

-- Dan

[rebeccajo 14]

It's really up to each person how they feel about pre-nuptial agreements and up to each couple as to whether or not they incorporate them into their marriage.

As I have clearly stated, I didn't have one in my first marriage and I don't now.

I would ask the readers indulgence while I tell a little tale of what happened to me.

When I divorced my first husband (an american citizen) I knew there was going to be hell to pay over splitting the property. What I never realized was how his wrath would filter down to our son. The young man who was once showered by his father with every feasible material possession is now denied the simplest extra by his father. College money has been hidden into other investments, medical expenses for the child have gone unpaid, high school graduation expenses have been put squarely on my shoulders - the list is endless. And it's not for lack of funds on my son's fathers part - he is solidly employed and makes nearly $100,000 a year. He does pay his child support on time, and has on more than one occasion stated he can hardly wait for day he won't be required to even provide that.

What's the point? Only this. No matter how much time you have spent with someone, how much you believe you know their basic character, how much you believe in true love and commitment, or how much you trust each other, that you can be surprised at how things can turn if the marriage falters.

Never ever ever in my worst nightmares did I imagine that my husband would reduce his relationship with his son to dollars and cents. It has been the deepest shock and disappointment of our troubled history.

This isn't an argument in favor or against pre nuptial agreements. It's merely food for thought. Often when contractual matters such as pre-nups are discussed, the feelings of the adult partners are the only ones taken into account. As has been discussed here, the woman especially often feels hurt. Children born of the marriage and their financial future and security are usually out of mind at that point in a relationship. It can become a very harsh and horrid reality later on.

Just something to think about.

[Fandango 1,439]

Come on people, this is not a 'who's right and who's wrong' scenario.....there are obviously those of us who feel they are bad, then there are those of us who feel they are good....dosen't make either side right or wrong, and each side's viewpoints should be respected as valid enough reason, and not dismissed away as 'oh she's bitter/oh she's naive'

In this instance, I'm going to do summat I rarely do, and that is I'm going to straddle the fence

[PurrSuede 0]

What's the point? Only this. No matter how much time you have spent with someone, how much you believe you know their basic character, how much you believe in true love and commitment, or how much you trust each other, that you can be surprised at how things can turn if the marriage falters.

AMEN!

This isn't an argument in favor or against pre nuptial agreements. It's merely food for thought. Often when contractual matters such as pre-nups are discussed, the feelings of the adult partners are the only ones taken into account. As has been discussed here, the woman especially often feels hurt. Children born of the marriage and their financial future and security are usually out of mind at that point in a relationship. It can become a very harsh and horrid reality later on.

Just something to think about.

And not to mention, I've more than once heard a woman say: "hell with that, he dumped me (cheated on me, played around, blew me off, pick one from a long list and insert here)... I'm gonna go after ever last dime I can from him, and make him PAY through the nose for f*cking me over..."

You know the "hell hath no fury..." cliche???

Face it, it's a fact, and I've heard more than one woman say that before.

So go figure she feels hurt when he asks for a pre-nup up front, after having been put through the financial wringer by a previous wife and taken to the cleaners by her because the marriage didn't work out for whatever reason.

Not saying this was your scenario, RebeccaJo, but what I am saying is that maybe there's a reason that men sometimes feel the need to protect themselves financially IF the marriage goes sour... like our past experiences with a bitter ex-wife???

-- Dan

Edited October 24, 2006 by PurrSuede