SEAL training range will no longer show Muslim woman as target

[Captain Oates 911]

Simply put, yes.

Combat subjects individuals to extreme levels of stress and the human body's response to stressors can be manipulated and improved by practice. Average people are ill-prepared for combat and thus military units train extensively to simulate conditions associated with combat.

The psychological and physiological responses of "average" people sometimes must be "beaten out" of soldiers in order for them to execute their duties in an efficient (and safe) manner. Most people don't want to shoot other people. Most men don't want to shoot women. A target such as the one above does two things - it "tricks" the brain into overcoming the "taboo" of shooting women and it also adds one more subconscious memory and physiological response to encountering a threat. The shooter doesn't see the target as a woman. Nor a "Muslim" woman. She is simply a threat. And threats must be dealt with immediately and with overwhelming violence of action.

Elite tactical operators are "ice cold" when it comes to shoot/don't shoot because they've run through drills like this a million times before ever engaging a real target. If you have to take the time to think about the level of threat the target "really" is to you or your team, it could be too late.

One of the classic ambush triggers run all over Africa in the post-colonial independence days was to place a five-year-old kid in the middle of the trail. Anyone in their right mind would stop and ask the kid if they're OK, where's the mother, etc. But, since it's war, by the time they did that, they were all dead. Stopping at that point in the trail placed them squarely in the kill zone and they were annihilated. Word spread. After a time, whenever a kid was encountered on the trail the kid was "unfortunately" caught in the cross fire of a counter attack.

The "trick" in these scenarios is being able to detach ones humanity from the mission. Shooting at orange blobs - while still quite fun - will not mentally prepare you for combat the way shooting an armed attacker - even if she's just on paper - will.

For a really interesting read on the whole subject, check out Lt. Col Dave Grossman's series "On Combat" and "On Killing." He's done a ton of research on the subject and he even travels around the country doing seminars and answering questions and stuff. You might want to go!

It's a pretty disgusting business for sure and our leaders need to be much more careful before they start these things

We must be overdue for another, so there are probably a quarter million people who's hearts are beating right now, who we will kill in the next 10 years

Let's hope our leaders have the natural human instincts that you start off describing - but they will be continents away from the killing, so it doesn't apply

We should put our leaders and their brothers and sisters in the front rank like they did in the 1300,s - just to make sure they have thought deeply enough about it before they drop the starting flag

The two big wars in the 1900's wrecked my family and I for one have had enough of it, and I know for certain they had had enough if it too

[slim 1,533]

Our greed forces us to overcome the grief and disguise it as honor.

[Captain Oates 911]

Our greed forces us to overcome the grief and disguise it as honor.

My grandad said to heck with all that honor bull. He had 5 little kids. They kept pushing him to volunteer and he refused.

Eventually they sent him a letter and he was conscripted

He got to France in January 1917, froze in a flooded trench for 4 months in the coldest conditions for decades and was killed on May 3 on his first attack.

He attacked at 3.45am with a full moon behind him. He had not eaten for 2 days. In front of him were the Prussian Guards Reserve Regiment with heavy water cooled machine guns

My grandmother got nothing in the way of assistance. She got people in the village to bring her their dirty washing and she washed it in a steel tub by hand

My dad was 18 months old

They conscripted my dad in 1939 (3 weeks after he got married) and he ended up deep in the jungles of Burma commanding A Bren Gun carrier as a corporal. He was supplied by air by the US army air Force

It was actually 1946 by the time he got home

His guts were full of tropical worms and diseases which crippled his body all the rest of his life

He was very bitter against the ruling politicians, pawns of the rich guys, who dream up all this stuff - one after another after another

What struck him most was the the money that was wasted everywhere. When he was at home in the depression, the government wouldn't give him a penny. When he got to war, it was money no object - billions being blown everywhere

I passed him academically when I was 9, but he was my hero for the personality he developed , not his uniform or the fighting, and I will never match his wisdom

I shoot plain paper targets

[slim 1,533]

I shoot plain paper targets

And God smiled upon us when He chose to allow us to shoot for fun - that we'd never know battle save through the eyes and experiences of others.

[Captain Oates 911]

And God smiled upon us when He chose to allow us to shoot for fun - that we'd never know battle save through the eyes and experiences of others.

I am probably the first man in the last 1,500 years history of my family who hasn't had to go through this..and I know how lucky I am. If I had been borne American, I would have been in Vietnam for sure - and not as a volunteer !

My dad used to say he came across blokes like me in the army - and if I fell in the sewage works I would come out smelling of roses. He was right there.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

The planet could stand to lose a few billion people. Everybody wants to go to heaven, nobody wants to die.

[Captain Oates 911]

The planet could stand to lose a few billion people. Everybody wants to go to heaven, nobody wants to die.

Your family first

I hope that wisdom comes to you and drives out such a callous attitude

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Your family first

Why are you making it personal? Are you that intellectually barren?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

As a muslim myself, I am not the least bit offended by this. There are enemies in all countries and ethnicities and that's important to recognize. I'm quite sure this was not the only target...

You must not have seen what the target looked like.

Notice what's beside her? They weren't just shooting at a figure. They were shooting at the Qur'an.

And if more good Muslims like you would speak up and out about the bad Muslims, I bet our perceptions would change quickly.

Slim's not Muslim.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

see my post #4. you train as you fight. so if you're used to shooting at some whacky colored targets, yes, it may well affect your ability when it comes to the real thing.

So, are they trained to kill terrorist combatants, or Muslims in general?

This target was found as part of a larger Pentagon investigation to root out anti-Islam propaganda in military training. There's no reason to vilify Islam or all Muslims to efficiently train military troops.

Military reviewing training material to remove anti-Islamic content

By Chris Lawrence

The chairman of the Joint Chiefs has ordered the entire U.S. military to remove all anti-Islamic content from its training materials.

Gen. Martin Dempsey sent a letter to the directors of military education institutions, combatant commanders and the heads of all branches of service instructing them to review all relevant training materials to make sure it does not have anti-Islamic content.

The order was precipitated by an elective course called "Perspectives on Islam and Islamic Radicalism," offered at the Joint Forces Staff College in Norfolk, Virginia.

Wired's Danger Room blog was first to report the Dempsey order.

"A student who finished the course last month brought this to his attention, that some materials in that course were inflammatory," Pentagon spokesman Capt. John Kirby said. The material included a statement that Kirby described as "the United States is at war with Islam, and that was presented as an assertion. We are at war with terrorism, specifically al Qaeda ... so that's one example."

"I am concerned that acadmeic institutions within the DoD may be presenting material, both by DoD instructors and guest lecturers, which goes well beyond merely presenting alternative intellectual viewpoints on radicalism to advocating ideas, beliefs and actions that are contrary to our national policy, inconsistent with values of our profession, and disrespectful of the Islamic religion," Dempsey wrote in a the memo.

Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama have repeatedly said that the United States is not at war with Islam.

The 30-day inquiry will try to determine how the material got into the course, and how many U.S. military officers received training using that material. The course has been taught since 2004, but its curriculum was revised in the middle of 2011.

Kirby estimates that "hundreds" of mid-level officers have taken the course, primarily commanders and lieutenant colonels from all four branches of service.

"What we don't know is when this inflammatory language was inserted in the course," Kirby said. But he added that the assumption is it has not been there from the beginning.

"Our concern is that there are some unprofessional things being taught to students in a military curriculum," a defense official explained.

The course at the Joint Forces Staff College has been suspended, and Dempsey has ordered the military chiefs to scour their own training materials to ensure no anti-Islamic content is being taught in other institutions.

Kirby said Defense Secretary Leon Panetta is "aware of the order, and shares Gen. Dempsey's deep concern. He completely endorses the general's decision to review training materials across the board and do a complete scrub."

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

But they have advanced and perfected it, while all the time removing more and more the people who do the killing, from the bodies of the 'collateral damage'. EG DRONES

I wish they would replace "collateral damage" with "civilians we killed accidentally" so that the reality of it is forefront

"Keeping it all hid" seems to be the priority

The Military always seeks to de-humanize the enemy and portray them as animals, non-human, so I am not surprised they are taking down pictures of actual people

They aren't doing it to be nice to Moslems or women. they are doing it so that trainees are kept less aware of what the militarily wants them to do

They can come to that understanding during the PTSD phase when they get home

Well they are the enemy... Better them than Us.. Kill them all and let God sort them out.

a pic of people swimming the rio grande don't pose an imminent threat, therefore it would not likely be used in a training environment.

Amen

[Ban Hammer 13,590]

So, are they trained to kill terrorist combatants, or Muslims in general?

i suppose they are trained to kill whoever presents a threat. as the picture contains someone holding a handgun that is pointed in the general direction of the shooter, i'd consider it to be a worthwhile training aid.

the background should be redone to remove anything that one can consider offensive, i'll agree.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Well they are the enemy... Better them than Us.. Kill them all and let God sort them out.

You must be delirious.

[slim 1,533]

Notice what's beside her? They weren't just shooting at a figure. They were shooting at the Qur'an.

Most Americans couldn't discern those squiggles from any other squiggles so unless they were specifically told what the squiggles meant, they wouldn't know any better. Setting the environment with squiggle-laden background is a wonderful idea since soldiers could encounter threats with a background very similar to the one depicted.

However, as soon as it was discovered those were excerpts from the holy works of any religion, they should've been replaced with squiggles that said "Coca Cola" or "KFC" or something like that.

The symbolism of destroying works of any religion is something the military should strive to protect it's soldiers from.

So, are they trained to kill terrorist combatants, or Muslims in general?

My personal observations are there's an ever-increasing shift in anti-Muslim sentiment and that's permeated into the training and lifestyle of our military.

For practical purposes the Middle East didn't exist to the military (and most of the government... and USA!) until the late '70s. The whole "Iran thing" was a little far fetched (and to this day, Americans still don't realize Persians and Arabs (and any manner of Afghans) aren't the same "brown people") and blew over quickly. Americans were just as upset with Israel as they were with the ME - and they really didn't know anything about what was going on anyway.

Then Beirut happened. The ME was now on the map and "those people over there" were now "the bad people." But, since that was a done deal as well, we shifted our focus elsewhere and didn't give it much thought until 1991.

When Saddam invaded Kuwait - and for more than 20 years after - 99.9% of Americans had no idea why Saudis would want to blow us up. Most still don't. Most couldn't (and still can't) tell you the first thing about why "those countries" would fight one another. Nor do they care.

That war, and subsequent occupation, introduced us to the laundry list of words used to describe "the bad guys" over there but it was very seldom that they were used in training because military training and doctrine was still aimed at overthrowing the Soviet Union or fighting Vietnam-style jungle battles. Our "enemy" was not a guy in the sandbox.

Even after Sept. 11, 2001, there were still "good guys" and "bad guys" over there and the majority of training was done in the woods against military adversaries. The operations in Afghanistan were simple military objectives against armed adversaries who fought in battles that were scripted on the chalk board. This was still a military fight.

The switch wasn't flipped until the war in Iraq was "won." In truth, our old friend Iran probably had quite a bit to do with it by funding and equipping the insurgency in both wars (along with various other outfits around the region) and shifting the battle from "force on force" where guys with guns fought other guys with guns to the death, to "hit and hide" where guys with cell phones made calls that blew up our troops. An unseen, unapproachable enemy.

Around that time the emphasis also shifted. Uniforms and equipment, body armor, vehicles, etc., were actually issued in desert colors. They became the norm instead of the exception. Training shifted from moving through the woods "lookin for Charlie" to clearing urban compounds "lookin for Haji."

His name had changed. His image had changed. America had a new enemy.

And the sad fact of the matter is many soldiers don't acknowledge the difference between a Muslim from Kenya and a Muslim from Indonesia. "They're still Muslims."

"And you're still missing the point."

There are still some very smart soldiers out there and many who understand the situation but the longer we occupy those lands, the more and more "anti-Muslim" our military becomes.

Pretty soon, they'll be wearing their Arabic "Infidel" shirts under their body armor when they invade Iran. "I want all these Muslims to know who I am."

[Xanax 349]

In my opinion:

Shoot at targets in different attire- sure.

Having words from the Qur'an behind her- unnecessary.