Netherlands is abandoning MULTICULTURALISM

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Please stop insulting where I live, thank you. Clearly you have never lived here and have no clue about it at all. If you knew anything about Katrina you would realize New Orleans and the levees were only a small part of it. You think levees broke and that was it?

I know that New Orleans was warned several times yet failed to act upon it and look at the result of that failure. At least the Feds provided them with FEMA trailers.

[Captain Oates 911]

It's a fascinating subject and one minute I am on the side of the immigrants (being one myself), and then I am on the side of the natives who have built their place in the sun (or in the rain if it's England), only to be usurped.

Now I am in Madison WI, I go to watch Rugby and they are good. But there I am supporting this foreign sport and thereby changing the American culture which has built up over hundreds of years.

I have to conclude it's a matter of degree and also a matter of concentration of influence. Since 2007 I have met only one Englishman in the US and he didn't like me (I could tell).

So I don't seek out my old culture or seek to plant it here by having 100,000 Brits in one town and the US can withstand my small alien influence.

I can be absorbed easily

The only immigrants of concern are those who come in massive numbers and concentrate in their own ghettos and seek out rights different from those of the natives..

In that case, I am with the natives

The UK is blatantly ahead of the US in their new requirement for spouses. It's draconian and obviously aimed at Pakistan/Bangladesh

Will the US get to that stage ? If they wait until 'critical mass' it will be impossible to implement UK style restrictions..

It might actually be easier to 'take over' the US as people are more geographically distributed and can build up large numbers without causing local stresses as in the tightly packed UK cities

[rocks 494]

I know that New Orleans was warned several times yet failed to act upon it and look at the result of that failure. At least the Feds provided them with FEMA trailers.

Are you honestly telling me you think Katrina only affected New Orleans? That might be the funniest and most badly educated comment I've ever read on here. I know you saw New Orleans on my profile and thought "hmm what do I know about New Orleans?", and that's the best you could come up with. Sorry buddy but it isn't working.

Yeah, all everyone needed was FEMA trailers, nothing else required. Some water came over the levees, there was no other hurricane damage. Insurance was paid to everyone in New Orleans and that's all that was required. New Orleans is the only city in Louisiana and the only place that got hit by Katrina. You really should try learning about a subject before talking about it. I suggest you first learn about hurricanes, clearly you have no clue about how they work either.

[rocks 494]

It's a fascinating subject and one minute I am on the side of the immigrants (being one myself), and then I am on the side of the natives who have built their place in the sun (or in the rain if it's England), only to be usurped.

Now I am in Madison WI, I go to watch Rugby and they are good. But there I am supporting this foreign sport and thereby changing the American culture which has built up over hundreds of years.

I have to conclude it's a matter of degree and also a matter of concentration of influence. Since 2007 I have met only one Englishman in the US and he didn't like me (I could tell).

So I don't seek out my old culture or seek to plant it here by having 100,000 Brits in one town and the US can withstand my small alien influence.

I can be absorbed easily

The only immigrants of concern are those who come in massive numbers and concentrate in their own ghettos and seek out rights different from those of the natives..

In that case, I am with the natives

The UK is blatantly ahead of the US in their new requirement for spouses. It's draconian and obviously aimed at Pakistan/Bangladesh

Will the US get to that stage ? If they wait until 'critical mass' it will be impossible to implement UK style restrictions..

It might actually be easier to 'take over' the US as people are more geographically distributed and can build up large numbers without causing local stresses as in the tightly packed UK cities

I couldn't think of anything worse than being surrounded by 100,000 Brits Whenever I hear a British tourist they always end up making me cringe and I feel embarrassed to be British. I avoid them like the plague!

I tend to think that adding new cultures to society are good, so in that case I'm with the immigrants. However, this only really works if these cultures are integrated into society somehow, if these people are segregated then that doesn't work and in that case I'm with the natives. It's a tough one.

The UK is making some very risky moves at the moment. I think these new laws will be detrimental to both of the coalition parties. I hope the US never makes such ridiculous rules, different cultures should be celebrated not frowned upon. The UK is in some kind of paranoia stage about the "take over".

United Kingdom

Ethnic groups:

white (of which English 83.6%, Scottish 8.6%, Welsh 4.9%, Northern Irish 2.9%) 92.1%, black 2%, Indian 1.8%, Pakistani 1.3%, mixed 1.2%, other 1.6% (2001 census)

Netherlands

Ethnic groups:

Dutch 80.7%, EU 5%, Indonesian 2.4%, Turkish 2.2%, Surinamese 2%, Moroccan 2%, Caribbean 0.8%, other 4.8% (2008 est.)

Edited June 27, 2012 by rocks

[Darnell 8,478]

Good for the Netherlands! It's about time ! Let's see what happens if/when this thing becomes a law.

[JohnR! 5,495]

That is still missing my point.

French/German/English are generally white, ethnically European and christian. Their cultures have marched in step so that witch burning was seen as a good idea in Germany/France/England at the same time. I have worked in the UK and Germany and France and the US and they are totally the same when compared to say the Japanese culture. France is 21 miles from England and France and Germany are joined.

The Constitution only says what laws cannot be made and not what laws need to be made

Since 1787 it has, at various times, UNDER THE CONSTITUTION, been possible to own black people and to ban inter racial marriages and to disbar atheists from public office or giving evidence in court -- so what price the revered constitution now ?

Multiculturalism has worked for 236 years ? ask someone black about that statement. People used to appear on TITLE DEEDS and BILLS OF SALE in this country and under the CONSTITUTION. Have you forgotten so quickly ?

The fact is that all the changes have been made by the majority will and sometimes armed force in the case of the Civil Rights Act

When the majority changes, what is possible under the Constitution changes either because of amendments or Court decisions

If, in 2100, practices arise which are repugnant to the population of 2012, it will not be possible to ban them even if the new law is Constitutional - because the culture of 2012 will then be in the minority.

That ignores the right of a large majority to change the constitution itself. Nothing stands still, let alone the Constitution

That is what I am talking about. Our laws change, always within the frame of the Constitution and evolve to reflect the evolution of the US as a nation. That which is no longer accepted be by a majority or not can be reworked inside that frame. That is the concept of evolution. Our laws are organic and as such they do change as the country changes and evolve. If we were afraid of cultural changes, we would still be living in a society where women could not vote or work and in which women and slaves would be just a little more than properties.

In 2012 we have laws which I am sure would be repugnant to the population of 1912. The fact remains that culture is a living and dynamic process and it belongs to those who are contemporary.

The culture of 2012 is for this generation, for it is being shaped by this generation. It would be an exercise in futility to try and put culture in a cast and freeze it in time. IMHO one of the strongest point of our country is that it can reshape and reinvent itself as it does every single day. Evolution is a process which requires adaptability more than rigidity. Many argue that the advantage of humans over other species is our ability to adapt more than any other attribute.

I have no doubt we would not recognize the culture of America in 2112, but that culture does not belong to us and never will. It will be up to Americans of that time to shape the country to their reality. Who are we to judge them?

[JohnR! 5,495]

You are absolutely right.... and even with those minor differences, history has been full of clash and bloodshed.

When you try to do what have never been done, -integrate radically different culture ALL ON THE SAME SOCIAL PLAIN into one cohesive nation of people, ... that is a lot to hope for.

And if it begins to unravel... how do you deal with that?

I agree wit you to a certain level. My argument is and remains that it is possible and there is no other place where that might have a chance than here in America. America has consistently disappointed the skeptics throughout history. There is no reason it would be different this time around.

[Captain Oates 911]

My own experience is that I was born in the Yorkshire Dales 10 miles from Bradford and I never saw a Pakistani until I saw 50 men in single file walking up the road. They were all holding hands with the man behind so they wouldn't get separated.

By the time I got married, I lived on the outskirts of Bradford and there were 150,000 Pakistanis within 6 miles of me (excluding illegals)

How did that affect me ? Personally, I learned to eat curry and that was about it. They formed their own community and we met at work but that was the extent of the contact. The member of parliament now reports Pakistani women who have lived there 35 years and who don't speak one word of English.

When I went to Bradford hospital it was like Kabul.There was about 50 people in the waiting area and I was the only one who wasn't dressed as a Pakistani/Afghan. The majority spoke zero English. Many had the 3rd world diseases with rickety legs and TB etc etc. I was seen on time and treated by an Arab doctor. No problem

If the 50 Pakistanis had not been there, I would still have been treated on time so it seemed to make no difference except that I did feel like an alien in my own country.

Practically though, feeling like an alien is something I experience every day in the US and I always will. Its only a feeling, not a practical thing like being abused or refused or discriminated against - and so no big deal.

I don't see any insurmountable problems until the laws change by virtue of the new majority

The laws changing might mean some current laws being repealed and that is what Americans are blind to. They concentrate on new laws not being constitutional and feel safe - while not considering the value of laws that do exist.

What if the new majority repealed ALL immigration law ?

[JohnR! 5,495]

My own experience is that I was born in the Yorkshire Dales 10 miles from Bradford and I never saw a Pakistani until I saw 50 men in single file walking up the road. They were all holding hands with the man behind so they wouldn't get separated.

By the time I got married, I lived on the outskirts of Bradford and there were 150,000 Pakistanis within 6 miles of me (excluding illegals)

How did that affect me ? Personally, I learned to eat curry and that was about it. They formed their own community and we met at work but that was the extent of the contact. The member of parliament now reports Pakistani women who have lived there 35 years and who don't speak one word of English.

When I went to Bradford hospital it was like Kabul.There was about 50 people in the waiting area and I was the only one who wasn't dressed as a Pakistani/Afghan. The majority spoke zero English. Many had the 3rd world diseases with rickety legs and TB etc etc. I was seen on time and treated by an Arab doctor. No problem

If the 50 Pakistanis had not been there, I would still have been treated on time so it seemed to make no difference except that I did feel like an alien in my own country.

Practically though, feeling like an alien is something I experience every day in the US and I always will. Its only a feeling, not a practical thing like being abused or refused or discriminated against - and so no big deal.

I don't see any insurmountable problems until the laws change by virtue of the new majority

The laws changing might mean some current laws being repealed and that is what Americans are blind to. They concentrate on new laws not being constitutional and feel safe - while not considering the value of laws that do exist.

What if the new majority repealed ALL immigration law ?

'What if' scenarios can be anything, so in turn, we can also say 'what it' the Earth was hit by a comet tomorrow? If all would become meaningless.

Maybe it would be somewhat more tangible if you considered reading your post and replacing the word 'Pakistani/Afghani' by 'black', or 'jews/jewish' and resetting it in the year 1900, placing it in the USA. (Not unlike an episode of 'Twilight Zone'). See that the predicament you describe has been faced in the past, with the same fears and anxiety you convey.

I dont presume to invalidate your feelings so much as I contend that the process of which you speak has been in motion from the moment the first caveman draw a perimeter on the ground around himself and declared the enclosure his/her possession. It is all a matter of perspective, IMHO.

[Captain Oates 911]

'What if' scenarios can be anything, so in turn, we can also say 'what it' the Earth was hit by a comet tomorrow? If all would become meaningless.

Maybe it would be somewhat more tangible if you considered reading your post and replacing the word 'Pakistani/Afghani' by 'black', or 'jews/jewish' and resetting it in the year 1900, placing it in the USA. (Not unlike an episode of 'Twilight Zone'). See that the predicament you describe has been faced in the past, with the same fears and anxiety you convey.

I dont presume to invalidate your feelings so much as I contend that the process of which you speak has been in motion from the moment the first caveman draw a perimeter on the ground around himself and declared the enclosure his/her possession. It is all a matter of perspective, IMHO.

Absolutely - and the fears of a take over are usually just fears

However, the America Indian's fears of a take over were spot on and I am sure they would have acted differently had they had the means

It was a disaster for them; it did disinherit them and destroy them

There is a prime example right here on our doorstep and it happened recently

I accept your point that minorities usually remain minorities and remain no threat to the majority, but that isn't always the case.

We should only have no concerns so long as we are prepared for our group to become a minority to another group which excludes us and acts to disadvantage us - and as previously shown, the PRESENT constitution is no protection against that

Yes it's unthinkable right now, but in 500 years ?

Edited June 27, 2012 by Ashud Cocoa

[JohnR! 5,495]

Absolutely - and the fears of a take over are usually just fears

However, the America Indian's fears of a take over were spot on and I am sure they would have acted differently had they had the means

It was a disaster for them; it did disinherit them and destroy them

There is a prime example right here on our doorstep and it happened recently

I accept your point that minorities usually remain minorities and remain no threat to the majority, but that isn't always the case.

We should only have no concerns so log as we are prepared for our group to become a minority to another group which excludes us and acts to disadvantage us - and as previously shown, the PRESENT constitution is no protection against that

Yes it's unthinkable right now, but in 500 years ?

Each one of us is a minority, in the sense we are all unique. In that sense minorities will always exist, but there is always the cultural superstructure to which all minorities belong and which allow them to remain unique and yet be a part of something bigger - back to 'e pluribus unum'.

In every sense, 'our group' is already a minority. America represents only 5% of the world's population and in every sense, we already influence the majority. Without judgment, many contend that we currently live in planet America, for our culture is so pervasive and prevalent.

I am sure today's society was unfathomable 500 years ago. In fact, 500 years ago the very concept that what was to become 13 mere colonies in some uncivilized place would some day revolt, win a war against its imperial masters and eclipse them times over in power, would be unthinkable.

The point is that we only have today. We are not owners of anything. We do not own land or property or even culture for that matter, so much as our finite and mortal condition only afford us the title of custodians, at best.

[Captain Oates 911]

Each one of us is a minority, in the sense we are all unique. In that sense minorities will always exist, but there is always the cultural superstructure to which all minorities belong and which allow them to remain unique and yet be a part of something bigger - back to 'e pluribus unum'.

In every sense, 'our group' is already a minority. America represents only 5% of the world's population and in every sense, we already influence the majority. Without judgment, many contend that we currently live in planet America, for our culture is so pervasive and prevalent.

I am sure today's society was unfathomable 500 years ago. In fact, 500 years ago the very concept that what was to become 13 mere colonies in some uncivilized place would some day revolt, win a war against its imperial masters and eclipse them times over in power, would be unthinkable.

The point is that we only have today. We are not owners of anything. We do not own land or property or even culture for that matter, so much as our finite and mortal condition only afford us the title of custodians, at best.

Being a minority is only a problem if the majority has the power and the intention to disadvantage us.

The US has the power to threaten the whole globe with more 'defence' spending than all the rest of the word combined and is not a minority in danger of being disadvantaged.

You and I feel secure in our isolationist minority status, but, as you point out, things change.

If we had the experience of being an Irish Catholic in Northern Ireland 50 years ago, or an African slave in Alabama in 1860, I am sure we would have a better understanding of what being a disadvantaged minority feels like, and would be concerned at never becoming one.

In 1776, the US had a population of 2 million and one third were revolutionaries, one third were loyalists and one third did not care.

The Country had been settled and developed by the English who poured military and agricultural riches into the country for 200 years and built it up from wilderness. They were then disinherited because some people were in a position to disinherit them

The basic societal structure and culture and laws remains essentially English right up to the present day and has facilitated that success. The American Constitution is a mere extension of the English bill of rights 1689. In that sense, the English have the Empire now as then and are the largest foreign investors in the US and benefit from the US thermo-nuclear stockpile which is financed by the US taxpayer.

If anything, the American revolution demonstrates my point in that if you have something worth holding onto, there is always someone plotting to take it away from you and complacency is the enemy

Edited June 27, 2012 by Ashud Cocoa

[Darnell 8,478]

My own experience is that I was born in the Yorkshire Dales 10 miles from Bradford and I never saw a Pakistani until I saw 50 men in single file walking up the road. They were all holding hands with the man behind so they wouldn't get separated.

By the time I got married, I lived on the outskirts of Bradford and there were 150,000 Pakistanis within 6 miles of me (excluding illegals)

How did that affect me ? Personally, I learned to eat curry and that was about it. They formed their own community and we met at work but that was the extent of the contact. The member of parliament now reports Pakistani women who have lived there 35 years and who don't speak one word of English.

When I went to Bradford hospital it was like Kabul.There was about 50 people in the waiting area and I was the only one who wasn't dressed as a Pakistani/Afghan. The majority spoke zero English. Many had the 3rd world diseases with rickety legs and TB etc etc. I was seen on time and treated by an Arab doctor. No problem

If the 50 Pakistanis had not been there, I would still have been treated on time so it seemed to make no difference except that I did feel like an alien in my own country.

Practically though, feeling like an alien is something I experience every day in the US and I always will. Its only a feeling, not a practical thing like being abused or refused or discriminated against - and so no big deal.

I don't see any insurmountable problems until the laws change by virtue of the new majority

The laws changing might mean some current laws being repealed and that is what Americans are blind to. They concentrate on new laws not being constitutional and feel safe - while not considering the value of laws that do exist.

What if the new majority repealed ALL immigration law ?

Sorry, this isn't an example of 'multiculturalism' inside of a country. It's just your experience, nothing more.

The problem that The Netherlands is attempting to solve was vetted as a 'problem', apparently without your input. And That's OK.

Mostly, for this topic, you've veered off the point. And That's OK as well.

Can you get back to the TOPIC, though, and instead of telling what you experienced (that has nothing to do with government-allowed multiculturalism, or a government-lead reversal of this 'allowance', btw) you can tell us of your FEELINGS about The Netherlands thinking to make 'it' a requirement that Muslims 'toe the line' and in effect, abandon Sharia Law?

That would be a thing worthy of reading, IMO... You Know,,, yer FEELINGS...

[JohnR! 5,495]

Being a minority is only a problem if the majority has the power and the intention to disadvantage us.

The US has the power to threaten the whole globe with more 'defence' spending than all the rest of the word combined and is not a minority in danger of being disadvantaged.

You and I feel secure in our isolationist minority status, but, as you point out, things change.

If we had the experience of being an Irish Catholic in Northern Ireland 50 years ago, or an African slave in Alabama in 1860, I am sure we would have a better understanding of what being a disadvantaged minority feels like, and would be concerned at never becoming one.

In 1776, the US had a population of 2 million and one third were revolutionaries, one third were loyalists and one third did not care.

The Country had been settled and developed by the English who poured military and agricultural riches into the country for 200 years and built it up from wilderness. They were then disinherited because some people were in a position to disinherit them

The basic societal structure and culture and laws remains essentially English right up to the present day and has facilitated that success. The American Constitution is a mere extension of the English bill of rights 1689. In that sense, the English have the Empire now as then and are the largest foreign investors in the US and benefit from the US thermo-nuclear stockpile which is financed by the US taxpayer.

If anything, the American revolution demonstrates my point in that if you have something worth holding onto, there is always someone plotting to take it away from you and complacency is the enemy

Except that in the case of the American revolution, the British, who were the 'enemy' at the time, have managed to become our allies. In the sense of 'culture' of this thread, Britain today is as much as par of planet America, or the American Empire as many put it, as any other country in other continents. American hegemony, which is the reverse side of this discussion ironically, has always been the subject of fear by many countries and many cultures, and despite the historically unprecedented economic and military power yielded by the United States, it is yet to happen.

[rocks 494]

Practically though, feeling like an alien is something I experience every day in the US and I always will. Its only a feeling, not a practical thing like being abused or refused or discriminated against - and so no big deal.

It's odd that people are unable to control their emotions on this subject. It isn't a problem, it's just a change that they aren't used to. The recent surge of UK videos that attack immigrants really shocked me, do these people know their entire family history and where all their ancestors came from? Most likely not. Reminds me of that TV show, 100% English. Perhaps we should convince Theresa May to do that test.