Netherlands is abandoning MULTICULTURALISM

[Captain Oates 911]

I agree with most of what you say and perhaps it is a matter of personal outlook and/or POV on the same subject. I guess that what Americans have come to understand about our country is that we are indeed a nation of contradictions - or hypocrisy oftentimes, if you will - but we do not hide them nor do we try to justify them. Individuals may blow up abortion clinics in the name of some god, but they will be subjected to the same secular laws any other murder will.

The one thing that still creates waves in our culture is the lack of understanding of many, if nor most, that America is a secular country. It is not, nor was it ever meant to be a (enter religion name) country, regardless of any religious majority. Regardless of the founding fathers' personal view on religion they ensured that the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution remained free from any religious connotation. If they had meant it otherwise, they have the chance to include an entire pantheon in these documents. Wise beyond human comprehension, they did not. In that sense, any court of law, other than the secular legal system of the United States, cant, mustnt and wont trump the legal system. Having said that, we need to remind ourselves that our own legal system makes room and accommodations so that certain matters can be resolved outside a court of law.. In that sense Sharia or a Jewish court do have their place in society because they deal with issues and make decisions that do not preclude the authority of the US legal system.

These courts normally take charge of arbitration of disputes that are more a matter of interpretation or common sense than anything else. They are in essence no different than any other church.

In the end, we are a nation of laws, not deities.

In addition, anyone who claims to be a 'true' American and a 'true' patriot, is neither. True patriotic Americans would never use those qualifiers on themselves.

The reason that I can feel comfortable in the US is that the US Constitution is a straight lift and copy of the English bill of rights a century earlier.

Freedom of speech, not billeting troops in houses. cruel punishment, bail, searches etc etc - it's all there 100 years before

Even the right to bear arms is in the English bill of rights and still applies today - much the same as it does in Illinois -(not a lot)

England has a supreme court and the branches of government etc

The US took all English Supreme court decisions and incorporated them into its Federal code right up to the mid 1800's !

I studied English criminal law and I can recognize 99% of it in US Federal law (State Laws like no inter racial marriage were a disgrace)

Religion:

England has an established religion which is totally ignored and most are un-believers and it's not an issue

The US has no established state religion but in practice non-believers are ostracized in many organizations - private and public and some State laws ban non believers from public office or giving evidence in court (not enforceable I agree)

I guess that makes both countries hypocrites in the same but opposite ways

So this idea that the US is unique is simply not true. Many modern democracies have all the constitutional elements of the US Constitution.

This idea that other countries are politically primitive and we are unique and better than them and prepared to say so, encourages people to look down on foreigners and their cultures and any societal developments over there must be ignored and must NOT be brought here.

England abolished slavery before the US and had votes for women before the US and has abolished capital punishment before the US -leading Churchill to say the US always does the right thing - after trying everything else.

Any resolution of the culture question will be the same in the US as it is in each of the countries of Europe - it will work a certain way or it will fail in all - the US constitution is no more relevant or special in that area than that of the Dutch or English Constitutions - it will be societal attitudes that will either change or not

[Danno 1,228]

I am onboard with the concept of what America was meant to be, but the reality is that people looked up at the flag with tears of pride in their eyes and then went out and lynched black farmers

It is that disconnect which makes outsiders see the US as hypocrisy central. Like christians killing abortion doctors as a christian act

YOu never offered up what you believe this country "was meant to be" ... so that I can shoot it down.

There are over 300 million people in this country, nearly 80% are Christian, what percentage of those hundreds of millions have killed Abortion doctors?

Yet you are the first person to cry out if anyone else makes a generalized statement about other groups.... no matter how much fact bears out the generalization.

[Captain Oates 911]

YOu never offered up what you believe this country "was meant to be" ... so that I can shoot it down.

There are over 300 million people in this country, nearly 80% are Christian, what percentage of those hundreds of millions have killed Abortion doctors?

Yet you are the first person to cry out if anyone else makes a generalized statement about other groups.... no matter how much fact bears out the generalization.

As the US Constitution is so very close to the UK Bill of Rights, it clear that it's meant to be whatever the people want it to be, so long as they do that within the Constitution and the law.

That was too simplistic of course and the Constitution is incomplete in that it did not refer to cultural differences in the population and offered no resolution to these.

Examples:

If a certain ethnic group want to kill tigers for their ding-a-lings, should the others say no ?

If some groups want to marry their daughters off at age 12, should other groups interfere ?

[^_^ 5,021]

As the US Constitution is so very close to the UK Bill of Rights, it clear that it's meant to be whatever the people want it to be, so long as they do that within the Constitution and the law.

That was too simplistic of course and the Constitution is incomplete in that it did not refer to cultural differences in the population and offered no resolution to these.

Examples:

If a certain ethnic group want to kill tigers for their ding-a-lings, should the others say no ?

If some groups want to marry their daughters off at age 12, should other groups interfere ?

lds was required to remove polygamy from their religion as a condition of utah becoming a state so clearly thats been done before

[Danno 1,228]

As the US Constitution is so very close to the UK Bill of Rights, it clear that it's meant to be whatever the people want it to be, so long as they do that within the Constitution and the law.

That was too simplistic of course and the Constitution is incomplete in that it did not refer to cultural differences in the population and offered no resolution to these.

Examples:

If a certain ethnic group want to kill tigers for their ding-a-lings, should the others say no ?

If some groups want to marry their daughters off at age 12, should other groups interfere ?

Both of those cases were dealt with in the US constitution...... it was left up to the States in which which the question was raised.... as long as it did not cross into other states.

[Captain Oates 911]

Both of those cases were dealt with in the US constitution...... it was left up to the States in which which the question was raised.... as long as it did not cross into other states.

Abandoning it to someone else isn't really 'dealing with it'

When Minnesota becomes a majority Moslem State, will the Statists still be laid back about the kind of State laws that will be in force then ?

What if Minnesota sent 50% of it's tax take to the Palestinians ? or allowed female circumcision ?

[Danno 1,228]

Abandoning it to someone else isn't really 'dealing with it'

When Minnesota becomes a majority Moslem State, will the Statists still be laid back about the kind of State laws that will be in force then ?

What if Minnesota sent 50% of it's tax take to the Palestinians ? or allowed female circumcision ?

First of all lets stick to out train of thought here which is "how it was set up".

The federal Gov't was to be limited in scope and power over the States, that has disintegrated now but that is besides the point.

[JohnR! 5,495]

The reason that I can feel comfortable in the US is that the US Constitution is a straight lift and copy of the English bill of rights a century earlier.

Churchill to say the US always does the right thing - after trying everything else.

That is something uniquely and quintessentially American: We rehash that which we like, improve on it and make it our own.

It is not that America does the right thing after trying everything else, so much as we try everything until we get it right.

[JohnR! 5,495]

What if Minnesota sent 50% of it's tax take to the Palestinians ? or allowed female circumcision ?

That is where federal law comes in. Neither instance would happen.

[Captain Oates 911]

First of all lets stick to out train of thought here which is "how it was set up".

The federal Gov't was to be limited in scope and power over the States, that has disintegrated now but that is besides the point.

I agree that the Constitution was more about freedom rather than law making, and so the set up was do your own thing - however, that's like letting your 13 year old daughter spend all night at the Jamaican Rasta club - its freedom, it's liberty but it sure isn't a formula for pursuing happiness (for you)

A Minnesotan Moslem will not welcome you banning female circumcision any more than your daughter will enjoy you banning her night club trip - the question is can the more powerful (the majority) - or you in the case of your daughter, impose their values on the less powerful

Careful, because when they become the more powerful, you will have to suffer under their laws

If you don't want your culture to change, then banning certain immigrants on the basis of your culture is to only way to go

It's not going to happen although the UK is trying it with their 5 years probation, big tests and 30k income level for sponsors (no co-sponsors)

Nope the US has a future as a majority Hispanic nation with laws to suit them and your children will live in a culture dominated by their culture

They like beer and barbecues so its not all bad news

[JohnR! 5,495]

If you don't want your culture to change, then banning certain immigrants on the basis of your culture is to only way to go

It's not going to happen although the UK is trying it with their 5 years probation, big tests and 30k income level for sponsors (no co-sponsors)

Alas if you don't want your culture to change, you need to ban all immigrants from coming in and send back all those who have come in. I believe the one thing that many miss is the fact that American culture is so prevalent is because it represents a mix of cultures, and in that sense, it appeals to everyone. Appeal is far stronger than the power of empire.

Our culture today is moving and reinventing itself, which is another aspect uniquely American: America has the uncanny ability to turn itself on a dime and reinvent itself every single day. American culture is not static. It is as diverse and organic as its population and in matters of immigration I believe we are better served by not looking back at that from which we came.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Gegel

[Captain Oates 911]

Alas if you don't want your culture to change, you need to ban all immigrants from coming in and send back all those who have come in. I believe the one thing that many miss is the fact that American culture is so prevalent is because it represents a mix of cultures, and in that sense, it appeals to everyone. Appeal is far stronger than the power of empire.

Our culture today is moving and reinventing itself, which is another aspect uniquely American: America has the uncanny ability to turn itself on a dime and reinvent itself every single day. American culture is not static. It is as diverse and organic as its population and in matters of immigration I believe we are better served by not looking back at that from which we came.

Sounds good but it isn't true

If you were a non-believer in a small town in Georgia or South Carolina , you would not be accepted and the locals would pass laws banning you from holding public office or voting or giving evidence in court. Some of your neighbors would be in the KKK or their fathers were.

I know that because they have already done it (its not constitutional of course)but nevertheless there is zero tolerance for atheists

Your starry eyed version of how the USA works is what Americans portray to the world, but it contrasts with reality on the ground.

Patriotism involves seeing the flaws, speaking up, exposing injustice and working against it.

Wallpapering over the cracks and portraying the US as a garden of Eden is in nobody's interests and doesn't get the job done

[JohnR! 5,495]

If you were a non-believer in a small town in Georgia or South Carolina , you would not be accepted and the locals would pass laws banning you from holding public office or voting or giving evidence in court. Some of your neighbors would be in the KKK or their fathers were.

I know that because they have already done it (its not constitutional of course)but nevertheless there is zero tolerance for atheists

You need not go any further than Arizona to understand that they can pass all the laws they want but they won't stick if they are at odds with the Constitution. You always have the recourse of the law if you feel wronged.

You could be a satanist in the deep South and yet, no legal action could be taken to restrict your constitutional rights. That does not mean it is a garden of Eden as you put it, but it is better than being subjected to mob rule with no recourse.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Gegel

[Danno 1,228]

I agree that the Constitution was more about freedom rather than law making, and so the set up was do your own thing - however, that's like letting your 13 year old daughter spend all night at the Jamaican Rasta club - its freedom, it's liberty but it sure isn't a formula for pursuing happiness (for you)

A Minnesotan Moslem will not welcome you banning female circumcision any more than your daughter will enjoy you banning her night club trip - the question is can the more powerful (the majority) - or you in the case of your daughter, impose their values on the less powerful

If you don't want your culture to change, then banning certain immigrants on the basis of your culture is to only way to go

Nope the US has a future as a majority Hispanic nation with laws to suit them and your children will live in a culture dominated by their culture

They like beer and barbecues so its not all bad news

See this is one reason you don't fit into the traditional American concept of the relationship between Gov't and the people, you equate the American people with an adolescent child... which must be controlled by those

superior micro managers in Washington.

When the collective people err in the path they take most often realize it and change course, when the Gov't does it, they hunker down, demand more money and even more involvement in the very thing they screwed up.

[Danno 1,228]

I think your stumbling block is your lack of knowledge (if you don't mind me saying).

-IN the first place America is a nation of people.... not of Government, it's government is Of the people, so when you say this is a "secular country".... one must ask -Where do you live that you have found this to be true?

As far as this *long held disconnect* between Gov't and religion, I would ask you to answer two questions.

-Where do our Founding documents that you source claim out rights come from?

-Quote for me the preamble of your state Constitution.

This is not a theocracy for certain, but there is a long standing connection between a general Faith in God and not only this Nation of people but the Government its self.

Gegel

I'm not surprised you didn't answer those questions.

If you tell me what state you are in, I will do the leg work for you.