renouncing U.S citizenship to become illegal ?

[Bootylicious!! 2]

Heina said:

I think most people wouldn't really care, because the reality of most people is that they have no intentions of immigrating to or staying in this country. For most people, it's a way to make money, then return home, so I think permanent ban wouldn't really scare most people.

To understand that, you have to understand why people come over here illegally-it's not to stay, although there are many who probably do stay.

Would you risk your life for a JOB, I dont think that is correct! of course work is partially the reason, food coupons, health care coupons, housing based on income, W.I.C, pretty tempting stuff eh!

Actually that is exactly why Javier came to the US. He had no intentions of staying here. He wanted to come work, make some money, and go back to build a decent house in Mexico. He did risk his life to come here. I wasn't exaggerating in my previous post when I said he almost died. One in his group did die. He didn't get any of the so called benefits you are speaking of here. He had an ITIN number, not a fake social. He paid in all those taxes that he will never see again. He didn't go to the doctor because he was too scared to do so. Not a very glamorous life.

[pedroh 21]

Heina said:

I think most people wouldn't really care, because the reality of most people is that they have no intentions of immigrating to or staying in this country. For most people, it's a way to make money, then return home, so I think permanent ban wouldn't really scare most people.

To understand that, you have to understand why people come over here illegally-it's not to stay, although there are many who probably do stay.

Would you risk your life for a JOB, I dont think that is correct! of course work is partially the reason, food coupons, health care coupons, housing based on income, W.I.C, pretty tempting stuff eh!

Actually that is exactly why Javier came to the US. He had no intentions of staying here. He wanted to come work, make some money, and go back to build a decent house in Mexico. He did risk his life to come here. I wasn't exaggerating in my previous post when I said he almost died. One in his group did die. He didn't get any of the so called benefits you are speaking of here. He had an ITIN number, not a fake social. He paid in all those taxes that he will never see again. He didn't go to the doctor because he was too scared to do so. Not a very glamorous life.

yea another topic not talked about.. the ITIN. people with ITIN number have to pay taxes, and most illegals have ITIN.. so indeed they pay dineros

[Mirorgate 0]

If we want to talk solutions to a problem, I think nobody so far has really touched on the best solution. Of course it's not a popular one, but like every good solution to a problem, it addresses the cause. It's not a bandaid type of thing but a fixing type of thing, and that is, make Mexicans want to stay in Mexico. Why would you risk your life crossing over the desert for a job? One of the main reasons could be you can't find one at home, or that the job you had at home does not pay enough to sustain your life and the life of your family. I know, for an example, that Javier works about 12 hours a day on the farm, 7 days a week, and is paid 800 pesos a week, which roughly converts to $80. That's like $10 a day. And he's really not all that bad off. The key is to educate Mexicans-stop with this ending school in the 7th grade, and get them to stay in Mexico, with jobs available that pay a livable wage. To those who might say it's not our problem to fix, I would say it most certainly is our problem to fix: 1-because we don't want them here; and 2-because we are and have always been in the habit of "helping" other countries out, even the ones that don't necessarily want or need our help.

interesting. So education mexicans past the 7th grade level i mexico is our problem? Is that what you meant to imply in your post? as to the second point in your post... many places DO want our help.. they just dont like the terms that they agreed upon (and not necessarily speaking of Iraq here though you alluded to it)

I mentioned in my post that hitting the employers with fines is a start. and I believe it is. we cant stop them from trying to come across the border, but if they do cross... and find no work because employers know that they will be fined out of a company... they will stop coming because there is no way to make a living where there is no work.

true they have a right to secure work. in mexico (or where ever the birthland is), unless LEGALLY gone thru the immigration process and applied for and been granted permission from the governing body of this country. it is not this countries obligation to provide work and home for ppl who decide to circumvent the process.

[AnaAndDaniel 0]

charles, i know where you side too. the next time you buy food at reasonable prices, remember as to why it is priced that way.

as to the medical costs, pay raises/etc... beleieve me, these issues have a lot bigger causes than illegal immigrants.

Daniel

:energetic:

my food is always reasonably priced, i buy at the commissary

nessa got a first hand look at that this weekend - one example i remember is a pineapple in the commissary at $2.50 each, downtown $5 each

I know this wasn't directed at me, however I just want to say that I have almost never gotten a medical bill. The one recent time was an error and was dropped. I have reall good insurance through my job, which I do not live in fear of losing. I also would have no problems whatsoever finding another one, would that be in my field, at McD's, or anywhere else.

but when you do get that medical bill, you'll know why it's so high. you're paying the cost of those illegals....

also keep in mind that vehicle insurance is high too - remember that uninsured driver's part of it?

Uninsured drivers come in ALL walks of life, as do "system" cheaters. In my last job, my coworker spent many hours trying to figure out how to cheat the WIC system. She was as American as me. In fact, when I think of those two groupings of people, the first thing that comes to my mind is NOT illegal aliens.

thank you Heina. Charles, do you have the number of legals (citizens and immigrants) who are on the dole? i bet you that the percantage is very high. also, have you seen the number of unisured Americans due to the fact the companies they work for do not provide them with such an option. This isn't to blame anyone, it is just a fact. Charles, you strike me as a sharp individual, and that makes me wonder you concentrate on a pisshole while the dam is about to break.

Daniel

:energetic:

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

thank you Heina. Charles, do you have the number of legals (citizens and immigrants) who are on the dole? i bet you that the percantage is very high. also, have you seen the number of unisured Americans due to the fact the companies they work for do not provide them with such an option. This isn't to blame anyone, it is just a fact. Charles, you strike me as a sharp individual, and that makes me wonder you concentrate on a pisshole while the dam is about to break.

Daniel

:energetic:

nope, i don't have such numbers - i'm sure you could find them just as easily as i could.

nor do i understand how the dole, uninsured workers, and so on work into this topic

[kaydee457 13]

Update- sort of related to this topic....

I work for a large defense contractor. We have a couple of cafeterias that serve breakfast, lunch and dinner to 3000 + employee's.

So, last week I see many new faces (food service people) in the cafeteria. Well, I think to myself the others have been given new positions or there's some moving around of people. By the way we contract the food services to an outside vendor.

Anyway, today I asked one of the long time food service employee's why I'm seeing so many new faces....

She responds " oh, we had to let a lot of them go because they didn't have the proper documentation".

Well, I guess some employers are listening when it comes to illegals......

[Mirorgate 0]

Update- sort of related to this topic....

I work for a large defense contractor. We have a couple of cafeterias that serve breakfast, lunch and dinner to 3000 + employee's.

So, last week I see many new faces (food service people) in the cafeteria. Well, I think to myself the others have been given new positions or there's some moving around of people. By the way we contract the food services to an outside vendor.

Anyway, today I asked one of the long time food service employee's why I'm seeing so many new faces....

She responds " oh, we had to let a lot of them go because they didn't have the proper documentation".

Well, I guess some employers are listening when it comes to illegals......

Actually what scares me more is that FED gov has laws in place about who can work for them (either directly or indirectly as in contractors) yet does nothing to enforce them.. else why would ppl need to be "let go" for insufficient documentation to begin with?

also disturbing... is the blurred lines between illegal and legal immigrants

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061017/ap_on_...n_voting_threat

quite sad really.

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

Intentions of illegal criminals are not in question, their first Act on USA soil is that of defiance by intentionally breaking laws and continously stealing, defrauding and breaking laws to benefit their personal Agenda

We all have families to support that does not justify breaking federal laws to do so.

1000+ intneding immigrants scarfice comfortable lving conditions, decent income potential & months even years seperated from their loved ones to go through the immigration process by LEGAL Means.

Those who vilate the law and intentionally avoid federal regulations, avoid paying income taxes, do not deserve leniancy, do not deserve a free path to citizenship or any path to citizenship for that matter.

If an American Citizen / legal resident is caught evading Income taxes or not filing, the IRS will come after that person and put them in prison regardless if they have a family to support or not. yet these Illegals come here work illegally fail pay income taxes, send their money Back to Mexico therefore do not contribute to the growth of the economy and can't not be tracked by the IRS, So these Illegal Federal Criminals Criple the sytem, and avoid consequnces of their illegal activity.

In No way is their illegal pressence helpin US Economy, It is Hurting the Economy, the Education of our children, the tsandard and quality of medical care.On the surface employers save minimal amount of $$ by being able to pay lower wages and avoid certain insurance costs by hiring illegals, but the Long term negative effect ends up costing Billions per year for each illegal that Steals Govt. aide, takes advantage of medical care that i sput in place for LEGAL residents, Ctitizens, causing Hospitals to have to shut down, putting more people out of care. This doesn't even take into taccount other costs such as illegal drivers and the ris ein population and drug traffciking 8-% of which come sileghal;ly through USA 's Southern Border.

How does one Quantify the costs of Drugs and their effect on the USA population. Now Drug cartels are finding More Profir by Smuggling people instead of drugs IT IS ALL CONNECTED.

Pushing middle income families to lower standards in education for their children due to ilegal immigranst requiring thschools accomodate their children with leneicnacy in testing or language help, Illegals bring the value of property down. So the long term effect is costing billions per year, the minimal amount of $$ saved by hiring them is not worth the end cost.

There is a solution, those who entered ilegally should be made to return to where they came from, then ONCE they have PAID back taxes for ALL years and Fines, and Filed tge proper paperwork then They can apply for LEGAL entry and Legal Residancy. NO benefit of ANY kind should be granted ( except Emergency medical care) to any person who enters country illegally, before applying for benefits one should establish that they have entered the country legally! /USA Children citizens Born to Illegal immigrant Parents Should NOT be allowed to petition their parents. The cost of USA having t pay for Illegal Immigrants should be passed on to the Govt.s of those countries the illegals originate. The USA should reduce the amount of Froeign Aide to those countries based on the amount they cost USA and legal residents.

if 1 illegal costs USA 1 billion / annually then that should be deducted from the trade or support, commiosn USA provides/ to countriy where that immigrant origniated from; be it SWEDEN ( as if) or Mexico .

The USA in turn should reduce trade between countries that refuse to raise the standard of living for their own people. America Should be more self sufficient even if at first it costs citizens/ residents more, the long term it will save Billions,

[kaydee457 13]

else why would ppl need to be "let go" for insufficient documentation to begin with?

Clarification-

They were not employed by the US Government but rather a food service vendor that we, a defense company, contracted our fodd services to...

[JaJo 1]

All this playful banter between you guys (waiver chicks) does not really make anyone who hasn't gone through that feel sympathy (which is why your both being sarcastically funny about it). You guys dealt with it so you know 1st hand the hardships, however hardships do not excuse illegal activity!! its laughable to think it does!

Just understand trying to educating others by pointing out hardships of illegals really does nothing for you or the plight of the downtrodden illegals. No one will feel bad for them in this way.

[Mirorgate 0]

else why would ppl need to be "let go" for insufficient documentation to begin with?

Clarification-

They were not employed by the US Government but rather a food service vendor that we, a defense company, contracted our fodd services to...

clarification. Still indirectly employed to the gov'ment. by second party or third it still violates the laws established. who has access to where was (is it not?) to what facilities.

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

Employers should be held accountable for aiding illegal activity,

If you were to aid a criminal in a federal crime of any other kind your ####### would be in prison why should this be treated any differently.

it is in a sense stealing from the Govt. ( IRS) Illegal Employees do NOT pay income taxes

The question arises if whether or not the EMployers Knowingly hired the illegal in the first place.

I would think that a lot of them do not , as the system is flooded with Fraudulent ID's , stolen SSC,

making it difficult to tell if someone si legal or not.

preventing potential ID fraud w/ a national ID is a start,

[Marc and Olga 0]

so in schools.. no school lunches for 'anchor kids'? I thought those lunches were for all hte kids @ school, not only the kids from illegal aliens, which by constitutional right they are born US citizens, and therefore I think they have a right to school free lunches.

There is legislation in Arizona that may remove the "anchor baby" possibility.

See the thinking is that the 14th amendment only covers those who follow the rules of land, not those who choose to ignore it, therefore removing the automatic citizenship of a child born to illegal parents and giving them ONLY automatic citizenship of the land the parents are from.

I wonder how that will go in the supreme court as I am certain it will go that far!

I know how the courts handled the voting publics decision to require identification to vote, the overturned it, which makes me wonder why even bother voting, the courts will decide that I am wrong!

That rant out of the way, let's look at this....there are SOME that claim they come here ONLY for jobs, well how about this?

Inez and Antonio Valenzuela are a marketer's dream. Young, upwardly mobile, and ready to spend on their growing family, the Los Angeles couple in many ways reflects the 42 million Hispanics in the U.S. Age 30 and 29, respectively, with two daughters, Esmeralda, 8, and Maria Luisa, 2 months, the duo puts in long hours, working 4 p.m. to 2 a.m., six days a week, at their bustling streetside taco trailer.

But Inez and Antonio aren't your typical American consumers. They're undocumented immigrants who live and work in the U.S. illegally. When the couple, along with Esmeralda, crossed the Mexican border five years ago, they had little money, no jobs, and lacked basic documents such as Social Security numbers. Guided by friends and family, the couple soon discovered how to navigate the increasingly above-ground world of illegal residency. At the local Mexican consulate, the Valenzuelas each signed up for an identification card known as a matrícula consular, for which more than half the applicants are undocumented immigrants, according to the Pew Hispanic center, a Washington think tank. Scores of financial institutions now accept it for bank accounts, credit cards, and car loans. Next, they applied to the Internal Revenue Service for individual tax identification numbers (ITINS), allowing them to pay taxes like any U.S. citizen -- and thereby to eventually get a home mortgage.

Or this couple:

Camila and Diego Sandoval (not their real names), walked off a plane from Lima, Peru, four years ago as tourists and never went back to their professional jobs. Diego, 33, got work parking cars but soon went into business for himself designing pools and processing construction permits. Camila, 29, joined him after a stint at a hotel. Together, the two now pull down $120,000 a year.

They also have been involved in Marriage Fraud:

Last year, Camila obtained residency papers by making a marriage of convenience to a friend who is a legal resident. But when Diego tried to become legal the same way, he soon found that his bride had been fictitiously married 11 times. So he filed for a divorce rather than risk an interview with immigration officials.

Not here to stay? Only want a job that no american wants? Banks are banking on America's short-sightedness and that is the point of this article. (my source)

In my local paper there are many stories of people attempting to cross the border illegally (comes from being a mere 88km from Nogales) they all seem to have the hope of not a short term fix for the financial problems at "home" but, in fact a NEW "home".

[anya-D 8]

Intentions of illegal criminals are not in question, their first Act on USA soil is that of defiance by intentionally breaking laws and continously stealing, defrauding and breaking laws to benefit their personal Agenda

We all have families to support that does not justify breaking federal laws to do so.

1000+ intneding immigrants scarfice comfortable lving conditions, decent income potential & months even years seperated from their loved ones to go through the immigration process by LEGAL Means.

Those who vilate the law and intentionally avoid federal regulations, avoid paying income taxes, do not deserve leniancy, do not deserve a free path to citizenship or any path to citizenship for that matter.

If an American Citizen / legal resident is caught evading Income taxes or not filing, the IRS will come after that person and put them in prison regardless if they have a family to support or not. yet these Illegals come here work illegally fail pay income taxes, send their money Back to Mexico therefore do not contribute to the growth of the economy and can't not be tracked by the IRS, So these Illegal Federal Criminals Criple the sytem, and avoid consequnces of their illegal activity.

In No way is their illegal pressence helpin US Economy, It is Hurting the Economy, the Education of our children, the tsandard and quality of medical care.On the surface employers save minimal amount of $$ by being able to pay lower wages and avoid certain insurance costs by hiring illegals, but the Long term negative effect ends up costing Billions per year for each illegal that Steals Govt. aide, takes advantage of medical care that i sput in place for LEGAL residents, Ctitizens, causing Hospitals to have to shut down, putting more people out of care. This doesn't even take into taccount other costs such as illegal drivers and the ris ein population and drug traffciking 8-% of which come sileghal;ly through USA 's Southern Border.

How does one Quantify the costs of Drugs and their effect on the USA population. Now Drug cartels are finding More Profir by Smuggling people instead of drugs IT IS ALL CONNECTED.

Pushing middle income families to lower standards in education for their children due to ilegal immigranst requiring thschools accomodate their children with leneicnacy in testing or language help, Illegals bring the value of property down. So the long term effect is costing billions per year, the minimal amount of $$ saved by hiring them is not worth the end cost.

There is a solution, those who entered ilegally should be made to return to where they came from, then ONCE they have PAID back taxes for ALL years and Fines, and Filed tge proper paperwork then They can apply for LEGAL entry and Legal Residancy. NO benefit of ANY kind should be granted ( except Emergency medical care) to any person who enters country illegally, before applying for benefits one should establish that they have entered the country legally! /USA Children citizens Born to Illegal immigrant Parents Should NOT be allowed to petition their parents. The cost of USA having t pay for Illegal Immigrants should be passed on to the Govt.s of those countries the illegals originate. The USA should reduce the amount of Froeign Aide to those countries based on the amount they cost USA and legal residents.

if 1 illegal costs USA 1 billion / annually then that should be deducted from the trade or support, commiosn USA provides/ to countriy where that immigrant origniated from; be it SWEDEN ( as if) or Mexico .

The USA in turn should reduce trade between countries that refuse to raise the standard of living for their own people. America Should be more self sufficient even if at first it costs citizens/ residents more, the long term it will save Billions,

what about the ones who enter "legally" but stay "illegally" after their visa exprire too.. I know tons and some are my friends (not only from Thailand though..some EURO countries too) and I think the number of those people are very high - they dont have to fear being caught as much as the ones enter illegally though (from what I know) so what would you suggest about that?

[Libersolis 0]

Intentions of illegal criminals are not in question, their first Act on USA soil is that of defiance by intentionally breaking laws and continously stealing, defrauding and breaking laws to benefit their personal Agenda

We all have families to support that does not justify breaking federal laws to do so.

1000+ intneding immigrants scarfice comfortable lving conditions, decent income potential & months even years seperated from their loved ones to go through the immigration process by LEGAL Means.

Those who vilate the law and intentionally avoid federal regulations, avoid paying income taxes, do not deserve leniancy, do not deserve a free path to citizenship or any path to citizenship for that matter.

If an American Citizen / legal resident is caught evading Income taxes or not filing, the IRS will come after that person and put them in prison regardless if they have a family to support or not. yet these Illegals come here work illegally fail pay income taxes, send their money Back to Mexico therefore do not contribute to the growth of the economy and can't not be tracked by the IRS, So these Illegal Federal Criminals Criple the sytem, and avoid consequnces of their illegal activity.

In No way is their illegal pressence helpin US Economy, It is Hurting the Economy, the Education of our children, the tsandard and quality of medical care.On the surface employers save minimal amount of $$ by being able to pay lower wages and avoid certain insurance costs by hiring illegals, but the Long term negative effect ends up costing Billions per year for each illegal that Steals Govt. aide, takes advantage of medical care that i sput in place for LEGAL residents, Ctitizens, causing Hospitals to have to shut down, putting more people out of care. This doesn't even take into taccount other costs such as illegal drivers and the ris ein population and drug traffciking 8-% of which come sileghal;ly through USA 's Southern Border.

How does one Quantify the costs of Drugs and their effect on the USA population. Now Drug cartels are finding More Profir by Smuggling people instead of drugs IT IS ALL CONNECTED.

Pushing middle income families to lower standards in education for their children due to ilegal immigranst requiring thschools accomodate their children with leneicnacy in testing or language help, Illegals bring the value of property down. So the long term effect is costing billions per year, the minimal amount of $$ saved by hiring them is not worth the end cost.

There is a solution, those who entered ilegally should be made to return to where they came from, then ONCE they have PAID back taxes for ALL years and Fines, and Filed tge proper paperwork then They can apply for LEGAL entry and Legal Residancy. NO benefit of ANY kind should be granted ( except Emergency medical care) to any person who enters country illegally, before applying for benefits one should establish that they have entered the country legally! /USA Children citizens Born to Illegal immigrant Parents Should NOT be allowed to petition their parents. The cost of USA having t pay for Illegal Immigrants should be passed on to the Govt.s of those countries the illegals originate. The USA should reduce the amount of Froeign Aide to those countries based on the amount they cost USA and legal residents.

if 1 illegal costs USA 1 billion / annually then that should be deducted from the trade or support, commiosn USA provides/ to countriy where that immigrant origniated from; be it SWEDEN ( as if) or Mexico .

The USA in turn should reduce trade between countries that refuse to raise the standard of living for their own people. America Should be more self sufficient even if at first it costs citizens/ residents more, the long term it will save Billions,

what about the ones who enter "legally" but stay "illegally" after their visa exprire too.. I know tons and some are my friends (not only from Thailand though..some EURO countries too) and I think the number of those people are very high - they dont have to fear being caught as much as the ones enter illegally though (from what I know) so what would you suggest about that?

Deport them. What else?