Before you permanently move to the US

[Boiler 44,868]

You can find plenty of nasty stories in the UK media about the NHS failings, this is an interesting article about the Armageddon to come:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/datablog/2012/jul/04/nhs-health

[Captain Oates 910]

Not true and I do not understand why a foreigner could not understand the concept.

we do and money of course does matter.

What Bevan had in mind and the current situation is completely divorced.

I am not sure if you are serious, the Uk is a Constitutional Monarchy btw.

So it is not a Democracy!

Probably, and a few other countries.

For an American to understand that even they have the right to free immediate treatment with zero formalities and zero contributions and zero insurance, is hard - as hard as it is for a Brit to understand the American system of "lose your house and all your savings"

The UK is run by the Commons and the upper chamber and the Queens consent is a formality and a custom (not like the president of the USA) - and that was settled by the English Civil wars in the 1600's. The Queen is only there to attract tourists and it is a very successful operation and nothing to do with politics.

If the Monarchy was dissolved tomorrow, it wouldn't have any effect upon whether the UK is a democracy or not (It is). It would not change anything

You seem be suggesting that only a country at the beck and call of the mob could be called a democracy and that referendums of the mob should decide things. In John Adam's words " A mob is still a mob - even of it's on your side". I don't want the mob to decide my future, I want to elect an intelligent leader.

Bevan had exactly this situation in mind. People are people and sick people are sick people - just as in 1948. His concept is timeless.

A huge number of doctors and nurses in the NHS are immigrants and it could not operate without them. The NHS operates a superb system at a fraction of the cost of the US. To add a massive entitlement admin system like the US would cripple it with cost. Bevan said so. keep it simple and cheap, treat everyone, foreigner or not.

It could be argued that only a flow of young working immigrants can ensure the ongoing success of the NHS

[Boiler 44,868]

The NHS as we currently know it will not survive, what will it move to is interesting, it is collapsing now despite all the extra resources being pumped into it.

I disagree with your historical view, I am not sure if there is any point discussing it. The NHS survived quite well before mass immigration.

Taking a greater and greater share of the national cake is one thing in an era of prosperity, in an era of decline is another.

I am no great fan of the NHS, my personal experiences have not been good, I would agree that the US has bigger issues.

[TracyTN 237]

I think the NHS sucks eggs too, mainly because the quality of care seems to be a ####### shoot dependent upon where you live. My husband lived near a shi##y trust, believe me. I witnessed appalling things personally, and that continues with his mom trying desperately to get care but being put off month after month.

But that doesn't mean our system isn't screwed. LOL

[Captain Oates 910]

The NHS as we currently know it will not survive, what will it move to is interesting, it is collapsing now despite all the extra resources being pumped into it.

I disagree with your historical view, I am not sure if there is any point discussing it. The NHS survived quite well before mass immigration.

Taking a greater and greater share of the national cake is one thing in an era of prosperity, in an era of decline is another.

I am no great fan of the NHS, my personal experiences have not been good, I would agree that the US has bigger issues.

My personal experience of the NHS is extremely positive.

It does vary by post code and the Bradford hospitals are like a bad area in Kabul

However, North Yorkshire, eg Harrogate is totally different experience. The Americans are told that if a Brit is over 50, they are given an aspirin and sent away. That is propaganda put out my the health care industry to protect their profits made on the suffering of the sick

My mother fell down the stairs at age 72 and sustained extensive brain damage. She received fantastic care for years until she moved to a residential home in her 80's. The residential home was Local Authority owned and was like a really nice hotel. It has big light rooms and lovely gardens and a big conservatory etc. It was all free.

She had many accidents over the years, broken arms, broken femur, and then when she was 92, she was diagnosed with a huge ovarian cancer that was benign. She had a full hysterectomy at age 92 so hah to you American propagandists !

She continued to have her health maintained until she finally caught pneumonia and died at 95 two years ago

From age 72 to age 95 she received all this great residential care and many hospital generations and it did not cost her anything

The NHS and the systems in France and Germany are wonderful and the predatory Doctors in the USA are a disgrace

They rammed me full of all sorts of unnecessary junk and unnecessary tests for years and as soon as I stopped seeing them I felt much better

My weight is down 12 lbs and my blood pressure is now 124/82 instead of 150/95

The NHS is the real jewel in the crown of Britain and the people who work there do it for the patients and not for the money gouging as is the case in the US. My hospital in the US employes a person to stand at the door, and as I leave they say "Have a nice day". That is their job. They also have an electric golf cart and try and make me take a trip in it to my car. I am walking just fine and they try and scoop me up into their silly cart.

It really is a 5 star hotel business and nothing to do with caring for the sick

Take profit out of helping sick people is what I say, and Americans - don't criticize the NHS until you have had scores of years of experience of it - don't go on US Insurance company propaganda or the occasional horror story which pops up in any country

Edited July 19, 2012 by Ashud Cocoa

[Boiler 44,868]

I had scores of years of NHS experience, well 2 and a bit anyway.

Like I said my personal experience was poor, and with aged parents and grandparents I spent a lot of time in NHS Hospitals.

I have not lived in the UK for 8 years, it is interesting that every time I go back the perception I get is greater and greater dissatisfaction.

The reasons, well the main one you have aptly described. There are many others.

[Captain Oates 910]

I had scores of years of NHS experience, well 2 and a bit anyway.

Like I said my personal experience was poor, and with aged parents and grandparents I spent a lot of time in NHS Hospitals.

I have not lived in the UK for 8 years, it is interesting that every time I go back the perception I get is greater and greater dissatisfaction.

The reasons, well the main one you have aptly described. There are many others.

Its not commonly known that people can use any hospital. I went into the emergency room at Leeds hospital (inner city) as I had breathed in dust which could have been asbestos, and there was a long waiting time. Usual inner city winos and hookers and police with prisoners etc. I drove to Harrogate (20 minutes) and was seen immediately in plush surroundings. My residence came under Bradford at that time.

We will be visiting the UK next month and not taking out travel insurance because overseas visitors are treated free for problems arising during the stay.

We will use a 'nice' hospital if needed.

[Boiler 44,868]

Classic example, thank you.

[TracyTN 237]

My personal experience of the NHS is extremely positive.

It does vary by post code and the Bradford hospitals are like a bad area in Kabul

However, North Yorkshire, eg Harrogate is totally different experience. The Americans are told that if a Brit is over 50, they are given an aspirin and sent away. That is propaganda put out my the health care industry to protect their profits made on the suffering of the sick

My mother fell down the stairs at age 72 and sustained extensive brain damage. She received fantastic care for years until she moved to a residential home in her 80's. The residential home was Local Authority owned and was like a really nice hotel. It has big light rooms and lovely gardens and a big conservatory etc. It was all free.

She had many accidents over the years, broken arms, broken femur, and then when she was 92, she was diagnosed with a huge ovarian cancer that was benign. She had a full hysterectomy at age 92 so hah to you American propagandists !

She continued to have her health maintained until she finally caught pneumonia and died at 95 two years ago

From age 72 to age 95 she received all this great residential care and many hospital generations and it did not cost her anything

The NHS and the systems in France and Germany are wonderful and the predatory Doctors in the USA are a disgrace

They rammed me full of all sorts of unnecessary junk and unnecessary tests for years and as soon as I stopped seeing them I felt much better

My weight is down 12 lbs and my blood pressure is now 124/82 instead of 150/95

The NHS is the real jewel in the crown of Britain and the people who work there do it for the patients and not for the money gouging as is the case in the US. My hospital in the US employes a person to stand at the door, and as I leave they say "Have a nice day". That is their job. They also have an electric golf cart and try and make me take a trip in it to my car. I am walking just fine and they try and scoop me up into their silly cart.

It really is a 5 star hotel business and nothing to do with caring for the sick

Take profit out of helping sick people is what I say, and Americans - don't criticize the NHS until you have had scores of years of experience of it - don't go on US Insurance company propaganda or the occasional horror story which pops up in any country

I could list as many horror stories about my family/friends in the UK and their NHS experiences as you did good ones - it's the inequality of the care that gets my ire up when people start talking about how wonderful the NHS is. Yes - it has wonderful things about it, and I'm HAPPY to hear experiences like the ones you've listed. I just don't understand why all Brits can't have those same experiences. That dichotomy alone means it is a system with it's own subset of problems.

I am an American, and I criticize the NHS based on what I have seen with my own eyes struggling for 4 days to try and get my (then) fiance seen by a doctor after nearly cutting off two of his fingers - and also from what my husband and his family have told me have been their personal experiences over the years. I do not criticize it based on what US institutions have 'told' me. I am not suggesting that my perspective makes me some kind of NHS expert, but I also do not criticize it blindly.

FWIW I can't think of any American in my circle of 'influence' who doesn't think our healthcare system is badly broken.

Edited to add: if the suggestion is that my in laws should all drive elsewhere to get better care, and that its sort of their fault if they don't, then that's just laughable, I'm sorry. My mother in law is disabled which makes extra travel kind of hard. Aside from the scores of Brits who probably can't afford the cost or time it would take them from their jobs to be seen by another (better) trust.

Edited July 19, 2012 by TracyTN

[Captain Oates 910]

I could list as many horror stories about my family/friends in the UK and their NHS experiences as you did good ones - it's the inequality of the care that gets my ire up when people start talking about how wonderful the NHS is. Yes - it has wonderful things about it, and I'm HAPPY to hear experiences like the ones you've listed. I just don't understand why all Brits can't have those same experiences. That dichotomy alone means it is a system with it's own subset of problems.

I am an American, and I criticize the NHS based on what I have seen with my own eyes struggling for 4 days to try and get my (then) fiance seen by a doctor after nearly cutting off two of his fingers - and also from what my husband and his family have told me have been their personal experiences over the years. I do not criticize it based on what US institutions have 'told' me. I am not suggesting that my perspective makes me some kind of NHS expert, but I also do not criticize it blindly.

FWIW I can't think of any American in my circle of 'influence' who doesn't think our healthcare system is badly broken.

An emergency visit to a hospital resulted in a four day wait ? I can't imagine anyone living and sleeping in the emergency ward waiting room for four days - that must have been horrible

Hope you are right on that last one above because 50% of people are going to vote to repeal health care reforms in the US - but that is politics.

[TracyTN 237]

An emergency visit to a hospital resulted in a four day wait ? I can't imagine anyone living and sleeping in the emergency ward waiting room for four days - that must have been horrible

Hope you are right on that last one above because 50% of people are going to vote to repeal health care reforms in the US - but that is politics.

He was initially seen by the EMT who came to their house after his mom called 999. They were the ones who told him to go to the hospital and have it seen by a doctor, hence the start of the wait when it was determined that he'd have to be seen by a plastics doc.

We didn't live and sleep there, but we were told each day to come at 8 am, and that he wasn't allowed to eat or drink anything after midnight in case they determined he needed to have surgery. We didn't sleep there only because he lived close. That wasn't the case for the three other people in line behind him who had the same wait in store for them but lived further away and had to take the train. One of them did sleep there at least one of the nights if I remember correctly.

We the people can't repeal anything. We can vote for those who can start the process (an uphill battle from what I'm hearing anyway - at least to fully repeal it), but I wasn't aware that 50% of the population aligned themselves with those who say they are going to repeal it.

[Captain Oates 910]

He was initially seen by the EMT who came to their house after his mom called 999. They were the ones who told him to go to the hospital and have it seen by a doctor, hence the start of the wait when it was determined that he'd have to be seen by a plastics doc.

We didn't live and sleep there, but we were told each day to come at 8 am, and that he wasn't allowed to eat or drink anything after midnight in case they determined he needed to have surgery. We didn't sleep there only because he lived close. That wasn't the case for the three other people in line behind him who had the same wait in store for them but lived further away and had to take the train. One of them did sleep there at least one of the nights if I remember correctly.

We the people can't repeal anything. We can vote for those who can start the process (an uphill battle from what I'm hearing anyway - at least to fully repeal it), but I wasn't aware that 50% of the population aligned themselves with those who say they are going to repeal it.

Yep the election looks very close and the republicans are sworn to repeal the affordable care act - so although 50% of the people don't want to repeal it, they are going to vote for a party that does want to repeal it because of other issues such as guns and Kenya and condoms etc

Re the fingers - I understand now that it was the plastic surgeon that was unavailable. I couldn't imagine that immediate emergency care would be unavailable.

My daughter crashed her car sideways into a lamp post and cut the car in half. Luckily she wasn't wearing her seat belt and was thrown out. The Police said she would have been killed if she had been wearing it and took no action. I called the hospital and they said I couldn't speak to her as she was with the plastic surgeon. Panic - and my mind was imagining all sorts ! Turns out she had a cut on her cheek and he was fixing that. That was within 15 mins of her arriving in hospital and it was an inner city hospital. I can only imagine that your horror story was one of those rare events that are reported every now and then. It was totally unacceptable. I would have been obnoxious and probably got arrested.

[Boiler 44,868]

I had a 7 hour wait with my Father in A and E.

Just seemed so disorganised. Sleeping on beds in corridors is not unknown.

Infinite demand, finite resource.

[Captain Oates 910]

I had a 7 hour wait with my Father in A and E.

Just seemed so disorganised. Sleeping on beds in corridors is not unknown.

Infinite demand, finite resource.

Its always the same in the inner city ghettos...things are much better in Cheltenham and Harrogate and Bath and Surrey

Can you imagine the emergency room in Washington DC Central on a Saturday night ? LA South Central ?

..gun shot and knife wounds and crack addicts etc - getting a twisted ankle fixed would be a challenge - and not free

I saw 14K for tests lasting 4 hours...

[Boiler 44,868]

I did have treatment in the London Bridge Hospital, but that was private.

Otherwise I have never been in a inner city hospital so could not comment.