How did you meet?

[akdiver 3]

I can't believe you had the guts to imply something about my English when you don't even know me.

I didn't imply anything your English. You asked about language barriers with wives, and I said there isn't any with mine because she probably speaks English better than you do. That doesn't make any comment at all about your ability to speak English.

Aside from that, it's nice to hear you don't appreciate it when people imply things about you. Neither does anyone on here.

I don't have issues with how people meet - why would I care how people live their lives, it's none of my business.

And yet, you ask! Go figure.

And I got all those insults in response...

Probably has something to do with your snooty posts.

I don't even want to post here any more

Great!

I really don't see a point in posting here if all I get from it is name calling

Post posts with information, get treated with respect. Post posts implying you're somehow better than other people due to circumstances of meeting, and get treated accordingly.

Cheers!

AKDiver

[slim 1,525]

Sillychick. First I think the "mail order" comment was wrong. You dont find it offensive when someone calls your SO a "mail order". We are all here for the same reasons. To use each other for references to past experience with the visa process. It doesn't really matter where people meet. Although many people have met in a different way other than the internet please dont assume that everyone is a "mail order". I can understand their frustration but also I can understand your innocence to the forum. Just watch the words and it's all good. Good luck on your journey.

Thanks for your kind words. Really. It sure helps after all the insults I got here...

I don't have issues with how people meet - why would I care how people live their lives, it's none of my business. I don't assume nothing, but I have seen some horrific posts here, where men were talking about how they would go to Russia to meet like 3 women who they write to, and then decide which one is better. It makes me feel really bad, you know.

Actually, I met my husband online too, and it turned out to be a great relationship. And more to that - whenever he mentions that his wife is Russian, he always gets that: "Oh, congratulations! You got yourself one of those mail-order brides!" It really hurts to hear things like that, and I do have issues with marriage brokers - I saw a few sites on international dating, and I just got the impression that they treat women like a commodity. Sorta, "Look how many beautiful Russian girls we have here, they will all love you for who you are, come and pick one!" I happen to think that marriage brokers exploit people, and I wanted to voice my opinion on that. And I got all those insults in response... I come to this forum to share information and to seek help in all these immigration issues. But when I decided to speak my mind on something that really botheres me, I get insulted like that... I don't even want to post here any more, cause it really hurts bad when people call you stupid because you said something they didn't like.

I'm just very hurt How can you people be so cruel? AKDiver, I don't even know who you are, and I sure never insulted you personally. Yet you even called me a troll in another thread... Do you think it makes me feel good?

I really don't see a point in posting here if all I get from it is name calling

There are many websites where women are a commodity. However, are we supposed to feel sorry for those women when they themselves are the ones that are PAYING to be put on the websites? It would be different if they were "trafficked" into "mail-order" relationships, but the vast majority of women on sites such as "international marriage broker" sites are there willingly and to find a husband from a Western country so they can "improve" (financially) their current status.

It is what it is, and what I find amazing is that the blame for the status quo is on the men for "shopping" for these women when in fact, if the women themselves would refuse to be placed on these sites (and would also refuse to pose for such sexy photos!) the whole system would crumble.

But... this all gets back to having women that are looking for a better life, and who don't mind marrying men that they've never met who are way older than them... as long as they're rich! To argue that point though, women can do this. Women will fall in love with a man that treats them nicely, regardless of his age or location. Men will fall in love with any woman any where, provided they show him a little attention every now and then.

And that is why the situation is the way it is..... and that's also why it won't ever change! All I'm saying is don't knock us (guys) for browsing through the treasure trove of gorgeous women's profiles when it's the women themselves, who by their own willingness to be added to these sites, that perpetuate the situation.

[PurrSuede 0]

Really. It sure helps after all the insults I got here...

Insults ~you~ got here? How about a menu of the insults ~you~ offerred to open the dialog....

I try not to read this topic, cause there's way too much disgusting stuff here, but well, I got here today.

All this mail-order-bride ####### doesn't even make me sick anymore.

As long as there is supply, there'll be demand, and if those Russian women choose to sell themselves on dating websites the way they do, it's their choice.

They get what they deserve - losers with serious control issues, incapable of building a relationship based on equality. What I see is women from poor backgrounds, underdeveloped Russian cities, with low self-esteem entering into mail-order arrangements with losers and abusers.

I personally find the whole idea of posting on any dating site (let alone international) sick.

Then you say:

Please, don't get offended - I know a lot of people probably met their true love that way, but I can't even imagine myself doing that. How can you advertise yourself for dating purposes?? There's so many normal and healthy ways to meet people... But it's my opinion, no offense.

Well you offended a lot of people with your insulting remarks, but it's just your opinion, but god forbid if we voice our opinion about YOUR insults and degrading remarks, then it hurts your feelings... not to mention you imply that anyone who ever met this way isn't "normal or healthy"... but that's just your (insulting) opinion... and yes, it is offensive to say this to people in such a way.

And to finalize your insults....

Anyways, it's very sad that so many women from my country are involved into that type of human trafficking (and I believe that mail-order-bride business IS human trafficking) completely voluntarily. It just says a lot about them. Well, good luck. And of course, there'll always be jerks and scumbags who will use them for their own sick purposes

Sorry, I really needed to let the steam off...

So did I... to tell you how damnably insulting your posts were to the men and women who've been involved in "international dating" and the associated websites.

And I got all those insults in response... I come to this forum to share information and to seek help in all these immigration issues. But when I decided to speak my mind on something that really botheres me, I get insulted like that... I don't even want to post here any more, cause it really hurts bad when people call you stupid because you said something they didn't like.

Oh ok, we'll just sit back and let you insult people but gee, I guess we're not even allowed to respond to your insults and cruel remarks.

I really don't see a point in posting here if all I get from it is name calling

If you can't see where you started the name calling, I draw your attention to your highlighted quotes above.

-- Dan

Edited October 17, 2006 by PurrSuede

[Satellite 1]

I don't assume nothing,...

Since she probably speaks better English than you do, there was no language barrier.

I can't believe you had the guts to imply something about my English when you don't even know me. That's just so nasty.

Silly Chick, since you use double negatives in your sentences, a simple violation of English grammar, I can't blame AK for hinting that his wife's English might be better than yours. And since you, like me, make mistakes in grammar, you shouldn't be upset by it, and instead learn from your mistakes.

Correction - "I don't assume anything..."

http://leo.stcloudstate.edu/grammar/doubneg.html

if someone who arrives in the U.S. as a "student" and then gets married 5 months later has somehow got a magic lock on what constitutes a "real" relationship.

Actually, I met my husband online too...

Since your previous posts hint that what AK said is true, and I assume you met your husband before you came to the US on a F-1 visa, it sounds to me like you used the F-1 visa as a way to avoid doing the K-1. I am sure the USCIS wouldn't be pleased with that during your adjustment, if you haven't done so already. I know, save the rebuttal, you didn't know him well enough to marry at the time your F-1 was issued or you met him online after you came here

[Ivanovo 0]

Sillychick. First I think the "mail order" comment was wrong. You dont find it offensive when someone calls your SO a "mail order". We are all here for the same reasons. To use each other for references to past experience with the visa process. It doesn't really matter where people meet. Although many people have met in a different way other than the internet please dont assume that everyone is a "mail order". I can understand their frustration but also I can understand your innocence to the forum. Just watch the words and it's all good. Good luck on your journey.

Thanks for your kind words. Really. It sure helps after all the insults I got here...

I don't have issues with how people meet - why would I care how people live their lives, it's none of my business. I don't assume nothing, but I have seen some horrific posts here, where men were talking about how they would go to Russia to meet like 3 women who they write to, and then decide which one is better. It makes me feel really bad, you know.

Actually, I met my husband online too, and it turned out to be a great relationship. And more to that - whenever he mentions that his wife is Russian, he always gets that: "Oh, congratulations! You got yourself one of those mail-order brides!" It really hurts to hear things like that, and I do have issues with marriage brokers - I saw a few sites on international dating, and I just got the impression that they treat women like a commodity. Sorta, "Look how many beautiful Russian girls we have here, they will all love you for who you are, come and pick one!" I happen to think that marriage brokers exploit people, and I wanted to voice my opinion on that. And I got all those insults in response... I come to this forum to share information and to seek help in all these immigration issues. But when I decided to speak my mind on something that really botheres me, I get insulted like that... I don't even want to post here any more, cause it really hurts bad when people call you stupid because you said something they didn't like.

I'm just very hurt How can you people be so cruel? AKDiver, I don't even know who you are, and I sure never insulted you personally. Yet you even called me a troll in another thread... Do you think it makes me feel good?

I really don't see a point in posting here if all I get from it is name calling

There are many websites where women are a commodity. However, are we supposed to feel sorry for those women when they themselves are the ones that are PAYING to be put on the websites? It would be different if they were "trafficked" into "mail-order" relationships, but the vast majority of women on sites such as "international marriage broker" sites are there willingly and to find a husband from a Western country so they can "improve" (financially) their current status.

It is what it is, and what I find amazing is that the blame for the status quo is on the men for "shopping" for these women when in fact, if the women themselves would refuse to be placed on these sites (and would also refuse to pose for such sexy photos!) the whole system would crumble.

But... this all gets back to having women that are looking for a better life, and who don't mind marrying men that they've never met who are way older than them... as long as they're rich! To argue that point though, women can do this. Women will fall in love with a man that treats them nicely, regardless of his age or location. Men will fall in love with any woman any where, provided they show him a little attention every now and then.

And that is why the situation is the way it is..... and that's also why it won't ever change! All I'm saying is don't knock us (guys) for browsing through the treasure trove of gorgeous women's profiles when it's the women themselves, who by their own willingness to be added to these sites, that perpetuate the situation.

i have to agree with you slim, i think you phrased this post much better than some previous posts you have written about this. i don't agree with what is happening at all, and natasha hates it that everywhere she goes it is assumed that she is a "mail order bride". in actuality we met while i was working in russia and we lived there for 2 years until my contract was up. she had a great job, decent apartment, but we decided we would make a go in america together and see how it went, and now we can live in either country ( when her visa is complete) with relative ease, perfect situation!

there is a stigma to the marriage broker way of meeting and yet as long as there is a market for it on both sides of the atlantic, it will always exist. it's not just flourishing in russia, either.

if it makes both parties happy and no one is getting abused in any way ( the american for the GC and the russian for whatever) no problem. i have a problem with people calling them 'a commodity'.

i am interested in how the rw refer to the americans though, ( a " commodity" too?). i asked natasha (who has a friend on one of those sites) and she just giggled.

[rellik 0]

I have to say that I don't appreciate my wife being clumped into the category of:

"QUOTE(silly_chick @ Oct 16 2006, 02:32 AM)

As long as there is supply, there'll be demand, and if those Russian women choose to sell themselves on dating websites the way they do, it's their choice.

They get what they deserve - losers with serious control issues, incapable of building a relationship based on equality. What I see is women from poor backgrounds, underdeveloped Russian cities, with low self-esteem entering into mail-order arrangements with losers and abusers.

I personally find the whole idea of posting on any dating site (let alone international) sick. QUOTE"

I met my wife on one of those "sick dating sites" in Ukraine and I have to say that I have never met an organization that had the girls interests at heart more than the one I used. I decided to seek love elsewhere because of my own and substantiated opinions of American women. (and no, I will not discuss them because wrong or right, they are my opinions and I certainly don't want to offend anyone) I bought my wife an (initial) engagement ring for less than $100 and you would have thought she had been given the world...I've since upgraded her engagement ring but she still wears the first engagement ring on the other hand. I have never met a women so full of love and life and all she has ever wanted was a family of her own. God brought us together and no matter what happens to us, I will be able to say that I have truly loved someone more than myself.

Yes, there are scams out there that take advantage of men. Yes there are scams out there that take advantage of women. Yes there are some sites that purposely market women like they were cattle or something but, to say that they are all that way is wrong.

Also, I am not, as you so eliquently said: "losers with serious control issues, incapable of building a relationship based on equality". And I suspect neither are any of the other men here that have followed my path or will follow my path. I suggest you take your own advice in that people are only offended when they want to be or let themselves be. And I can say that I am offended and was from my original post when I said "what does it matter" because I knew where you were going with this and you brought this on yourself.....

Edited October 17, 2006 by rellik

[Satellite 1]

They get what they deserve - losers with serious control issues, incapable of building a relationship based on equality. What I see is women from poor backgrounds, underdeveloped Russian cities, with low self-esteem entering into mail-order arrangements with losers and abusers.

I always thought you needed some sort of sophistication to use the internet and to meet and sign up with one of these agencies.

One of the ladies I met in Russia who advertises herself on these sort of websites happens to be my wife's friend's mother. And we even got to meet the American you describe. However, he spoke no Russian. And while the lady would curse and laugh at the American for being a total idiot in Russian in front of us, he would respond with "I love you too honey".

I don't feel sorry for the ladies or the American men one bit. This lady certainly has her eyes set on using this guy for a green card. And it is a fair exchange. 3 years of pretend love from a hot lady for the American and a green card / citizenship for the Russian lady who gets an opportunity for the American dream. Nobody should take offense to that, unless they some how thought the Russian lady actually loved them for anything but a green card.

As soon as you take "love" out of the equation and look to market theory and contract principles as Slim does, then these marriage broker websites don't seem that bad.

[CarolineM 0]

at least it's not an A/W this time! The abuse is coming from somewhere else!!

must be a nice break for ya'll.

[rellik 0]

at least it's not an A/W this time! The abuse is coming from somewhere else!!

must be a nice break for ya'll.

I'm sorry, but are you accusing me/other posters on this site of abusing women?????? Or am I mistaken?

Edited October 17, 2006 by rellik

[Welshcookie 17]

I don't have issues with how people meet - why would I care how people live their lives, it's none of my business. I don't assume nothing, but I have seen some horrific posts here, where men were talking about how they would go to Russia to meet like 3 women who they write to, and then decide which one is better. It makes me feel really bad, you know.

Actually, I met my husband online too, and it turned out to be a great relationship. And more to that - whenever he mentions that his wife is Russian, he always gets that: "Oh, congratulations! You got yourself one of those mail-order brides!" It really hurts to hear things like that, and I do have issues with marriage brokers - I saw a few sites on international dating, and I just got the impression that they treat women like a commodity. Sorta, "Look how many beautiful Russian girls we have here, they will all love you for who you are, come and pick one!" I happen to think that marriage brokers exploit people, and I wanted to voice my opinion on that. And I got all those insults in response... I come to this forum to share information and to seek help in all these immigration issues. But when I decided to speak my mind on something that really botheres me, I get insulted like that... I don't even want to post here any more, cause it really hurts bad when people call you stupid because you said something they didn't like.

You speak as if Russian women are victims in this......couldn't all you have said go the other way too? I don't see any 'exploitation' and if there is I think it is a 2 way street....as long as everyone goes in with their eyes open what is the worry?

[Chuckles 0]

at least it's not an A/W this time! The abuse is coming from somewhere else!!

must be a nice break for ya'll.

I'm sorry, but are you accusing me/other posters on this site of abusing women?????? Or am I mistaken?

No, I believe her contention is that many people who find a partner in Russia do so only because they think American women are are abusive. Everyone has an opinion, C'est la vie, Que sara sara, and all that stuf...

Edited October 17, 2006 by Chuckles

[CarolineM 0]

nope ya'll are all wrong. I was saying that USUALLY it's the AW in here giving ya'll grief...and now it's a RW...

Don't read so far into things.

[Cupidoll 1]

nope ya'll are all wrong. I was saying that USUALLY it's the AW in here giving ya'll grief...and now it's a RW...

Don't read so far into things.

Edited October 17, 2006 by Cupidoll

[akdiver 3]

i have to agree with you slim, i think you phrased this post much better than some previous posts you have written about this.

You have to look around. We have already discussed this, at length, and frankly, there are no significant new insights as a result of the latest trolling.

If you want to read a thoughtful response I wrote on another thread, then here it is:

Oh come on. This argument is ridiculous.

How many American guys here would be hot to fall in love with the fat woman working at McDonald's? How many of you are seeking out the fat ugly women from overseas? Is it just coincidence that the men here are ending up with hot, hot wives - in many cases, far hotter than they could hope for if they limited their search to American women? That's what I thought. To claim that American women are any more deficient in this area of superficiality than American men are is fantasy.

Some can argue if they want to, but I think that, broadly speaking, we can observe two facts at play:

1). Most of the American men that are the subject of this discussion are ending up with far hotter women than they would if they were only dating American women.

2). Most of the foreign women that are the subject of this discussion have different cultural values than American women.

Facts are facts and I really don't think there is much room for valid debate on these statements, as they are phrased. So, that leaves us with the question of WHY? Why are these men ending up with the hotter women, and why do these women have different values, and what are those values? This is where the room for debate lies.

There are lots of theories I guess, but I'll take a quick stab (I have some other stuff to do at the moment). One theory for the hotter women is simply different (not lower!) standards. The hot foriegn women are willing to settle for the less-than-hot men for one reason or another. The question is, why? One answer is culture (which I'll address in a minute). Another is diminished choices. Perhaps their local supply of men is such that foreign men are simply more desirable than local men - for one reason or another. Maybe the local men are fat & ugly too. Maybe they drink too much. Maybe they tend to be unemployed. Maybe they just have bad character. Maybe local culture is such that men are taught to be not very nice to women. Who knows? What we do know is that women are willing to pay tremendous (social) costs to tap into a different supply chain of men.

Now for culture...let's face it, American culture, such as it is, is fraught with problems. In my opinion, it teaches people (men AND women) to be materialistic, shallow, self-centered, short-sighted, and hedonistic. That's a damning analysis, I know, but it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. You're entitled to yours as well, but right now we are talking about mine. (:

Anyway - People with such a culture can be considered by some, even those growing up in such a culture, to be unsuitable marriage partners. Maybe they simply are not attracted to such people. Maybe they're attracted to them, but have some negative relationship experiences with them. Maybe they actively reject this culture on principle and want someone with different values that are, most likely, going to come from someone raised in a different culture. At the end of the day, what we know is that some men decide to seek out foriegn women, and many of them claim this culture difference or negative experiences with local women as the reasons why. We can take them at their word, or simply insist on believing they just want women who are hotter than they are "entitled to" based on American standards of beauty, success, and class. To each their own.

Now - as for the culture of these foreign women... no one with any intelligence can seriously disagree that women from a foreign country are raised in a non-American culture and this affects their belief and value systems. It's just an obvious given. The question is, what is this difference and how does it affect choice in relationship partners? Again, there are many theories and none is likely to be applicable to all cultures.

Let's deal with the common consideration - that these women are no different than American women, they are simply looking for a better life and are happy to jump on board with a rich man, and that is their primary criteria. Well, hell, sounds a lot like Americanism to me. How can any American seriously criticize this strategy? Yeah, sure, some foreign women probably fall into this category, but hey, so do a lot of American women! Don't resent the foreign women for this - they simply want to make their lives better and are willing to do what it takes in the process, all while hurting no one. Nothing wrong with that.

Another consideration is that maybe their values really are different. Maybe they don't care about marrying a rich and successful husband. Maybe they want to marry a GOOD MAN who treats them well and they don't care where he happens to live. Further, maybe their culture is such that they simply don't place the value on the big house, 5 cars, and other material things that American culture does. Maybe they are less superficial about their marriage partner's looks? Maybe they look at the deeper character? Maybe they know that men who are not "competitive" when it comes to American women, because of their looks, finances, social skills, or other factors, have a lot of love to give, that the supply of such love may have been building up for many years, and they will treat their wife like a queen. Maybe many American women don't marry such men because they don't know these things, refuse to believe these things, or are culturally incapable of believing these things. Maybe while the American women thinks, "well, I want to marry a good man too - but these other things matter a lot!" (or deceives herself into thinking she doesn't care about these things when she really does), the foreign women REALLY thinks these other things just don't matter so much. This certainly SEEMS to be the case, if you read their dating profiles and look at the marriage choices they make. So yes, while these hot women, IF THEY WERE AMERICAN WOMEN, would certainly make different, culturally-induced choices, the fact is, they are NOT American women. They are from different places, have different values, and make difference choices. Further, the BASIS for their choices, and the choices themselves, are JUST AS VALID as the choices American women make, and they should not be criticised for those choices. Let them the hell alone. Leave their men alone too.

Finally, we can address the "fat/ugly/stupid/loser American man treats foreign model-quality/sex-goddess/beautiful women like #######" argument. This comes in three forms. The first form is that such men seek out foreign women mainly for power and control reasons, so they can treat them poorly and "get away with" things they would never get away with in a marriage with an American women. Honestly, this argument is bunk. No man, unless he is just a complete and utter fool, goes through the hassle, bother, complication, and yes, expense, of marrying any women, let alone a foreign women, specifically with the intention of treating her poorly. What would be the point? Honestly, who the hell needs that headache?

The second form of this argument is that foreign women are happy to put up with such treatment because even so, life is much better than before. Again, this argument is largely bunk. Women, no matter where they are from or what their culture is, want to love and be loved - and they know when that is not happening (women appearing on Cops and Jerry Springer excluded). Foreign women don't want to be mistreated any more than American women do. Further, just like SOME American women will put up with years of abuse "for the sake of the children", "because they don't know what to do", want to better position themselves for divorce, or simply want to keep using (yes, using) the man for what he provides them, so will SOME foreign women. This shouldn't be news to anyone, and is rather obvious. Big deal. Users come in all shapes and sizes, and strategy is appropriate for all situations. In the situation of a bad marriage, it's important to develop a good exit strategy, and that may take some time. In the interim, one has to make the best of the present situation. Duh.

The third form is that there really is a group of men out there who are in fact losers and dirt bags. Their beliefs about women and how they are treat women are disgusting. They treat women as trophies and sex objects, and use power and money to control them, all while not loving them. Obviously, this is not a good thing, but it's also a much smaller proportion of men than many women seem to believe. Further, there is a similar group of women who treat men in a like fashion. Such a women will use a man she doesn't particularly love or care about to provide her with a lifestyle she could never manage on her own, father and fund her children for 18+ years, and continue to suck up his resources long after she has stopped loving him because she is too gutless and pathetic to be honest, have an equitable divorce, and try to make it through life on her own. Such women are as disgusting as the men. Both groups should be reviled.

So, in summary, people make difference choices, and they make them for reasons other than the ones we might make ourselves. Big deal. Let everyone live their own lives and take care of their own problems, concentrate on your own issues, and try very hard not to judge other people for their different decision-making criteria because when it comes right down to it, as long as they are not hurting anyone, it's really none of your business. In the meantime, watch your criticism of other people's superficiality. Be more honest with yourself because odds are stronger than not that you (yes you!) are more superficial in a variety of ways than you give yourself credit for. Yes, it's true. And yes, I include myself in this statement.

As for the losers in our society, the men and the women, there isn't much we CAN do about them if we're not willing to address the cultural issues that promote such problems. That's a matter of political issues that no one seems to have the stomach to address, so we'll just have to live with it.

Cheers!

AKDiver

[rellik 0]

Thank you for your insight. I appreciate the well thought out argument you have made on this subject.

i have to agree with you slim, i think you phrased this post much better than some previous posts you have written about this.

You have to look around. We have already discussed this, at length, and frankly, there are no significant new insights as a result of the latest trolling.

If you want to read a thoughtful response I wrote on another thread, then here it is:

Oh come on. This argument is ridiculous.

How many American guys here would be hot to fall in love with the fat woman working at McDonald's? How many of you are seeking out the fat ugly women from overseas? Is it just coincidence that the men here are ending up with hot, hot wives - in many cases, far hotter than they could hope for if they limited their search to American women? That's what I thought. To claim that American women are any more deficient in this area of superficiality than American men are is fantasy.

Some can argue if they want to, but I think that, broadly speaking, we can observe two facts at play:

1). Most of the American men that are the subject of this discussion are ending up with far hotter women than they would if they were only dating American women.

2). Most of the foreign women that are the subject of this discussion have different cultural values than American women.

Facts are facts and I really don't think there is much room for valid debate on these statements, as they are phrased. So, that leaves us with the question of WHY? Why are these men ending up with the hotter women, and why do these women have different values, and what are those values? This is where the room for debate lies.

There are lots of theories I guess, but I'll take a quick stab (I have some other stuff to do at the moment). One theory for the hotter women is simply different (not lower!) standards. The hot foriegn women are willing to settle for the less-than-hot men for one reason or another. The question is, why? One answer is culture (which I'll address in a minute). Another is diminished choices. Perhaps their local supply of men is such that foreign men are simply more desirable than local men - for one reason or another. Maybe the local men are fat & ugly too. Maybe they drink too much. Maybe they tend to be unemployed. Maybe they just have bad character. Maybe local culture is such that men are taught to be not very nice to women. Who knows? What we do know is that women are willing to pay tremendous (social) costs to tap into a different supply chain of men.

Now for culture...let's face it, American culture, such as it is, is fraught with problems. In my opinion, it teaches people (men AND women) to be materialistic, shallow, self-centered, short-sighted, and hedonistic. That's a damning analysis, I know, but it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. You're entitled to yours as well, but right now we are talking about mine. (:

Anyway - People with such a culture can be considered by some, even those growing up in such a culture, to be unsuitable marriage partners. Maybe they simply are not attracted to such people. Maybe they're attracted to them, but have some negative relationship experiences with them. Maybe they actively reject this culture on principle and want someone with different values that are, most likely, going to come from someone raised in a different culture. At the end of the day, what we know is that some men decide to seek out foriegn women, and many of them claim this culture difference or negative experiences with local women as the reasons why. We can take them at their word, or simply insist on believing they just want women who are hotter than they are "entitled to" based on American standards of beauty, success, and class. To each their own.

Now - as for the culture of these foreign women... no one with any intelligence can seriously disagree that women from a foreign country are raised in a non-American culture and this affects their belief and value systems. It's just an obvious given. The question is, what is this difference and how does it affect choice in relationship partners? Again, there are many theories and none is likely to be applicable to all cultures.

Let's deal with the common consideration - that these women are no different than American women, they are simply looking for a better life and are happy to jump on board with a rich man, and that is their primary criteria. Well, hell, sounds a lot like Americanism to me. How can any American seriously criticize this strategy? Yeah, sure, some foreign women probably fall into this category, but hey, so do a lot of American women! Don't resent the foreign women for this - they simply want to make their lives better and are willing to do what it takes in the process, all while hurting no one. Nothing wrong with that.

Another consideration is that maybe their values really are different. Maybe they don't care about marrying a rich and successful husband. Maybe they want to marry a GOOD MAN who treats them well and they don't care where he happens to live. Further, maybe their culture is such that they simply don't place the value on the big house, 5 cars, and other material things that American culture does. Maybe they are less superficial about their marriage partner's looks? Maybe they look at the deeper character? Maybe they know that men who are not "competitive" when it comes to American women, because of their looks, finances, social skills, or other factors, have a lot of love to give, that the supply of such love may have been building up for many years, and they will treat their wife like a queen. Maybe many American women don't marry such men because they don't know these things, refuse to believe these things, or are culturally incapable of believing these things. Maybe while the American women thinks, "well, I want to marry a good man too - but these other things matter a lot!" (or deceives herself into thinking she doesn't care about these things when she really does), the foreign women REALLY thinks these other things just don't matter so much. This certainly SEEMS to be the case, if you read their dating profiles and look at the marriage choices they make. So yes, while these hot women, IF THEY WERE AMERICAN WOMEN, would certainly make different, culturally-induced choices, the fact is, they are NOT American women. They are from different places, have different values, and make difference choices. Further, the BASIS for their choices, and the choices themselves, are JUST AS VALID as the choices American women make, and they should not be criticised for those choices. Let them the hell alone. Leave their men alone too.

Finally, we can address the "fat/ugly/stupid/loser American man treats foreign model-quality/sex-goddess/beautiful women like #######" argument. This comes in three forms. The first form is that such men seek out foreign women mainly for power and control reasons, so they can treat them poorly and "get away with" things they would never get away with in a marriage with an American women. Honestly, this argument is bunk. No man, unless he is just a complete and utter fool, goes through the hassle, bother, complication, and yes, expense, of marrying any women, let alone a foreign women, specifically with the intention of treating her poorly. What would be the point? Honestly, who the hell needs that headache?

The second form of this argument is that foreign women are happy to put up with such treatment because even so, life is much better than before. Again, this argument is largely bunk. Women, no matter where they are from or what their culture is, want to love and be loved - and they know when that is not happening (women appearing on Cops and Jerry Springer excluded). Foreign women don't want to be mistreated any more than American women do. Further, just like SOME American women will put up with years of abuse "for the sake of the children", "because they don't know what to do", want to better position themselves for divorce, or simply want to keep using (yes, using) the man for what he provides them, so will SOME foreign women. This shouldn't be news to anyone, and is rather obvious. Big deal. Users come in all shapes and sizes, and strategy is appropriate for all situations. In the situation of a bad marriage, it's important to develop a good exit strategy, and that may take some time. In the interim, one has to make the best of the present situation. Duh.

The third form is that there really is a group of men out there who are in fact losers and dirt bags. Their beliefs about women and how they are treat women are disgusting. They treat women as trophies and sex objects, and use power and money to control them, all while not loving them. Obviously, this is not a good thing, but it's also a much smaller proportion of men than many women seem to believe. Further, there is a similar group of women who treat men in a like fashion. Such a women will use a man she doesn't particularly love or care about to provide her with a lifestyle she could never manage on her own, father and fund her children for 18+ years, and continue to suck up his resources long after she has stopped loving him because she is too gutless and pathetic to be honest, have an equitable divorce, and try to make it through life on her own. Such women are as disgusting as the men. Both groups should be reviled.

So, in summary, people make difference choices, and they make them for reasons other than the ones we might make ourselves. Big deal. Let everyone live their own lives and take care of their own problems, concentrate on your own issues, and try very hard not to judge other people for their different decision-making criteria because when it comes right down to it, as long as they are not hurting anyone, it's really none of your business. In the meantime, watch your criticism of other people's superficiality. Be more honest with yourself because odds are stronger than not that you (yes you!) are more superficial in a variety of ways than you give yourself credit for. Yes, it's true. And yes, I include myself in this statement.

As for the losers in our society, the men and the women, there isn't much we CAN do about them if we're not willing to address the cultural issues that promote such problems. That's a matter of political issues that no one seems to have the stomach to address, so we'll just have to live with it.

Cheers!

AKDiver

CarolineM, I want to apologize to you for my reaction to your post. I was wrong. Please accept my apology.

nope ya'll are all wrong. I was saying that USUALLY it's the AW in here giving ya'll grief...and now it's a RW...

Don't read so far into things.