Another Countdown Thread!!!!!!

[Bosco 1]

I never said discrimination was a red flag nor did I say she could use it as a factor. I merely made a statement that it is discrimination. Can she use it for her rebuttal? I don't know at this point.

There has been mud slinging at me and I am only trying to help. I am entitled to my opinion. I have been through the denial nightmare and I do know a little.

All we want to do is help her. Right now her only option is to try and get the denial overturned at the consular level. Nothing else matters at this point. Nothing.

If her case is sent back, then she will have to find the exact reasons, if she can, and try to overcome them.

Yes, she has told us a few things. There may be more we need to learn to be able to help her. At the moment she and her husband are in shock and need help.

Getting letters from her officers and faxing them to cas is a great idea is she can get them.

PRIVATE....see if you can get those letters!!! Even letters from your family would help. Letters from anyone who knows you 2 as a couple! Fax them to casa. Make sure each letter has an address and phone number for the person so the consulate sees these are real people who can be contacted.

See, I can't stop helping her. i dont want to get caught up in all the mud slinging here. I just want to help.

chi

The USC is not being discriminated against. A K1 petition by a USC is only a petition to qualify the non-USC for K1 classification. Nothing more. If petitions of African Americans were being denied at the USCIS level, we could argue the discrimination is against the USC.

A petition is only for K1 classification. If/when a petition is approved, it ONLY qualifies the non-USC to apply for a visa under that classication. At this point, it is no longer about the USC. The non-USC applies for the visa under their now approved classification, and has their case is reviewed at the consulate. If the consulate approves the visa, it only make them eligible for entry to a POE for the specific purpose of their visa application.

We can argue whether he was discriminated against, but he has no rights under US law. Her only rights are in terms of getting him the classification as a K1.

Edited October 17, 2006 by Bosco

[~*Dorothy*~ 2]

As far as I know Erica and Yassin are both Muslim and the only difference is that she is not of an Arab origin. The belief system is the same with only cultural differences, so with that in mind shouldn’t the consulate look closely at all the aspects when examining all of the potential red flags. I thought that it is common for Muslims to be introduced by family member so I think that this would not be a problem in their case.

It breaks my heart when a denial comes along, when bad things happen to good people and when one is not sure 100% of what went wrong…

Dorothy

Dorothy,

I think what could potentially be the issue is that arranged marriages are usually done between people of similar backgrounds. Families choose someone they feel shares similar values, traditions, and most often the same ethnicity. While not a set in stone rule, traditional arranged marriages are rarely cross-cultural. Part of the concept of arrangement is sort of preserving what existed in your family before.

Thank you Bosco for the clarification...You have much more insight into the subject, especially the ME/NA culture so thanks for sharing...Your explanation presents such a valid point that I have not even considered...The deeper meaning behind arrange marriages...Interesting, how everyday I learn something new...

Dorothy

Dorothy

[sarah and hicham 3]

Chiquita it seems like from what you say, anyone who is denied through Casa has been a victim of discrimination.

Can you tell me what a valid denial is in your eyes? It seems like you think everyone should be approved.

Just curious to know if you read Private's timeline and saw that after just a couple of days they were engaged. That to me seems like a huge red flag, especially if that information was known by the Consulate. The Consulate told them they hadn't known eachother long enough, so I am wondering if you accept that as an answer. It appears that their case had several red flags so without thinking of race do you still think they were discriminated against in any way?

[morocco4ever 63]

The USC is not being discriminated against. A K1 petition by a USC is only a petition to qualify the non-USC for K1 classification. Nothing more. If petitions of African Americans were being denied at the USCIS level, we could argue the discrimination is against the USC.

Shouldn't it read "An I-129F petition by a USC is only a petition to qualify the non-USC for K1 classification. Nothing more. If petitions of African Americans were being denied at the USCIS level, we could argue the discrimination is against the USC."?

But still....missing the basic point. I think the point is more that he was denied for what us American's would classify as discrimination. Not based on whether or not she is black, but rather "why" a Moroccan would choose a black woman for a wife. It is not as common for a Moroccan man to chose a black wife. Of course it happens, as it should. We should all be allowed our personal preference. But that is not to say that a CO wouldn't view this as a red flag.

[jordanianprincess 0]

But still....missing the basic point. I think the point is more that he was denied for what us American's would classify as discrimination. Not based on whether or not she is black, but rather "why" a Moroccan would choose a black woman for a wife. It is not as common for a Moroccan man to chose a black wife. Of course it happens, as it should. We should all be allowed our personal preference. But that is not to say that a CO wouldn't view this as a red flag.

Ok I got your point now, but that in itself would not get a denial. Maybe combined with all the other Red Flags is most likely what caused the denial. Also if he had the interview in English, he may have incorrectly answered some of the questions without realizing it. My fiance speaks english fluently, but he is going to have his interview in arabic just to be sure he understands every word.

[morocco4ever 63]

Chiquita it seems like from what you say, anyone who is denied through Casa has been a victim of discrimination.

Can you tell me what a valid denial is in your eyes? It seems like you think everyone should be approved.

Just curious to know if you read Private's timeline and saw that after just a couple of days they were engaged. That to me seems like a huge red flag, especially if that information was known by the Consulate. The Consulate told them they hadn't known eachother long enough, so I am wondering if you accept that as an answer. It appears that their case had several red flags so without thinking of race do you still think they were discriminated against in any way?

Can I just make one basic point? I have spelled out here the 3 reasons that we were denied. How many people on Visa Journey fit in the same shoes? I would bet there is a huge population, so shouldn't they have been denied as well? Something else flagged us for denial, but yet it isn't mentioned on our NOIR. Why?

I do believe there is discrimination, and I do believe they work hard to find something valid to use rather than what their true reasoning is.

Was this the case in Private's case? I honestly don't know, but I would never rule it out.

[jordanianprincess 0]

Chiquita it seems like from what you say, anyone who is denied through Casa has been a victim of discrimination.

Can you tell me what a valid denial is in your eyes? It seems like you think everyone should be approved.

Just curious to know if you read Private's timeline and saw that after just a couple of days they were engaged. That to me seems like a huge red flag, especially if that information was known by the Consulate. The Consulate told them they hadn't known eachother long enough, so I am wondering if you accept that as an answer. It appears that their case had several red flags so without thinking of race do you still think they were discriminated against in any way?

Can I just make one basic point? I have spelled out here the 3 reasons that we were denied. How many people on Visa Journey fit in the same shoes? I would bet there is a huge population, so shouldn't they have been denied as well? Something else flagged us for denial, but yet it isn't mentioned on our NOIR. Why?

I do believe there is discrimination, and I do believe they work hard to find something valid to use rather than what their true reasoning is.

Was this the case in Private's case? I honestly don't know, but I would never rule it out.

Ruling it out and speculating are 2 different things. Compare your timeline to hers, are they the same? Nope No 2 cases are alike, no 2 denials are alike. We are giving advice based on the facts that have been stated here and no your previous experience on your case which is totally different.

Maybe they did discriminate for whatever reason, but he has no rights and she is not the one on trial here. So I don't see how and why the discrimination card fits here. Like Rebecca said, if the USCIS denied her because she is black, then she has a case for discrimination. The embassy denied him and he has NO rights.

[Bosco 1]

The USC is not being discriminated against. A K1 petition by a USC is only a petition to qualify the non-USC for K1 classification. Nothing more. If petitions of African Americans were being denied at the USCIS level, we could argue the discrimination is against the USC.

Shouldn't it read "An I-129F petition by a USC is only a petition to qualify the non-USC for K1 classification. Nothing more. If petitions of African Americans were being denied at the USCIS level, we could argue the discrimination is against the USC."?

But still....missing the basic point. I think the point is more that he was denied for what us American's would classify as discrimination. Not based on whether or not she is black, but rather "why" a Moroccan would choose a black woman for a wife. It is not as common for a Moroccan man to chose a black wife. Of course it happens, as it should. We should all be allowed our personal preference. But that is not to say that a CO wouldn't view this as a red flag.

Yes, it is a 129F petition, but this seems to be a petty correction. The I-129F is also used for K3 and K4, and it doesn't make them eligible for K1 classification. We were discussing the K1 and I thought using K1 would make it less confusing.

People have stated that they the USC, or they the couple, have been discriminated against. They have not.

I personally don't think applying standards of what is mainstream within a country when evaluating visa eligibility for a citizen of that country is discrimination. Things have been coined "red flags" for a reason, and I think it is acceptable for the consulate to take those things into consideration.

[morocco4ever 63]

Chiquita it seems like from what you say, anyone who is denied through Casa has been a victim of discrimination.

Can you tell me what a valid denial is in your eyes? It seems like you think everyone should be approved.

Just curious to know if you read Private's timeline and saw that after just a couple of days they were engaged. That to me seems like a huge red flag, especially if that information was known by the Consulate. The Consulate told them they hadn't known eachother long enough, so I am wondering if you accept that as an answer. It appears that their case had several red flags so without thinking of race do you still think they were discriminated against in any way?

Can I just make one basic point? I have spelled out here the 3 reasons that we were denied. How many people on Visa Journey fit in the same shoes? I would bet there is a huge population, so shouldn't they have been denied as well? Something else flagged us for denial, but yet it isn't mentioned on our NOIR. Why?

I do believe there is discrimination, and I do believe they work hard to find something valid to use rather than what their true reasoning is.

Was this the case in Private's case? I honestly don't know, but I would never rule it out.

Ruling it out and speculating are 2 different things. Compare your timeline to hers, are they the same? Nope No 2 cases are alike, no 2 denials are alike. We are giving advice based on the facts that have been stated here and no your previous experience on your case which is totally different.

Maybe they did discriminate for whatever reason, but he has no rights and she is not the one on trial here. So I don't see how and why the discrimination card fits here. Like Rebecca said, if the USCIS denied her because she is black, then she has a case for discrimination. The embassy denied him and he has NO rights.

Well it does and doesn't fit. Now that it is going back to the USCIS then she is going to need to prove her case, not him, her. If she can answer in her rebuttal all of the CO's concerns, she may pass go, collect $200.00. Even if she does prove her case with the CIS, if the consulate still isn't satisfied then the consulate can and will try to find another reason to send it back.

Oh and your right, no 2 cases are alike, and I am certainly not comparing her case to mine. I was merely pointing out something in my case that makes you go hmmmmm......

Point of interest, when a person requests a FOIA did you know that the entire case is first scrutinized to see what needs to be stricken before it is sent to the requestor?

[jordanianprincess 0]

Chiquita it seems like from what you say, anyone who is denied through Casa has been a victim of discrimination.

Can you tell me what a valid denial is in your eyes? It seems like you think everyone should be approved.

Just curious to know if you read Private's timeline and saw that after just a couple of days they were engaged. That to me seems like a huge red flag, especially if that information was known by the Consulate. The Consulate told them they hadn't known eachother long enough, so I am wondering if you accept that as an answer. It appears that their case had several red flags so without thinking of race do you still think they were discriminated against in any way?

Can I just make one basic point? I have spelled out here the 3 reasons that we were denied. How many people on Visa Journey fit in the same shoes? I would bet there is a huge population, so shouldn't they have been denied as well? Something else flagged us for denial, but yet it isn't mentioned on our NOIR. Why?

I do believe there is discrimination, and I do believe they work hard to find something valid to use rather than what their true reasoning is.

Was this the case in Private's case? I honestly don't know, but I would never rule it out.

Ruling it out and speculating are 2 different things. Compare your timeline to hers, are they the same? Nope No 2 cases are alike, no 2 denials are alike. We are giving advice based on the facts that have been stated here and no your previous experience on your case which is totally different.

Maybe they did discriminate for whatever reason, but he has no rights and she is not the one on trial here. So I don't see how and why the discrimination card fits here. Like Rebecca said, if the USCIS denied her because she is black, then she has a case for discrimination. The embassy denied him and he has NO rights.

Well it does and doesn't fit. Now that it is going back to the USCIS then she is going to need to prove her case, not him, her. If she can answer in her rebuttal all of the CO's concerns, she may pass go, collect $200.00. Even if she does prove her case with the CIS, if the consulate still isn't satisfied then the consulate can and will try to find another reason to send it back.

Oh and your right, no 2 cases are alike, and I am certainly not comparing her case to mine. I was merely pointing out something in my case that makes you go hmmmmm......

Point of interest, when a person requests a FOIA did you know that the entire case is first scrutinized to see what needs to be stricken before it is sent to the requestor?

That doesn't surprise me one bit. I think in her case the Red Flags she had played a major role in the denial. I think the short courtship was a big one. Even given your red flags, you have a history which makes the difference.

I would say the best thing to do is consult an attorney before anything else.

[Bosco 1]

Well it does and doesn't fit. Now that it is going back to the USCIS then she is going to need to prove her case, not him, her. If she can answer in her rebuttal all of the CO's concerns, she may pass go, collect $200.00. Even if she does prove her case with the CIS, if the consulate still isn't satisfied then the consulate can and will try to find another reason to send it back.

Oh and your right, no 2 cases are alike, and I am certainly not comparing her case to mine. I was merely pointing out something in my case that makes you go hmmmmm......

Point of interest, when a person requests a FOIA did you know that the entire case is first scrutinized to see what needs to be stricken before it is sent to the requestor?

Yes, but what is technically being reaffirmed is their classification, thus why it goes back to the consulate again. The consulate is essentially saying "hey, we think you made a mistake and this is why". USCIS reviews is again with the reasons both from the consulate and the information provided by the petitioner (if offered), determines classification eligibility again, and the cycle begins anew. If the petitioner fails to respond or responds ineffectively, it is subject to denial.

Knowing that the denial/return really isn't about the USC obviously doesn't make it less painful, but I think these are salient points to understand in the process and exactly where our "rights" begin and end.

Edited October 18, 2006 by Bosco

[morocco4ever 63]

The USC is not being discriminated against. A K1 petition by a USC is only a petition to qualify the non-USC for K1 classification. Nothing more. If petitions of African Americans were being denied at the USCIS level, we could argue the discrimination is against the USC.

Shouldn't it read "An I-129F petition by a USC is only a petition to qualify the non-USC for K1 classification. Nothing more. If petitions of African Americans were being denied at the USCIS level, we could argue the discrimination is against the USC."?

But still....missing the basic point. I think the point is more that he was denied for what us American's would classify as discrimination. Not based on whether or not she is black, but rather "why" a Moroccan would choose a black woman for a wife. It is not as common for a Moroccan man to chose a black wife. Of course it happens, as it should. We should all be allowed our personal preference. But that is not to say that a CO wouldn't view this as a red flag.

Yes, it is a 129F petition, but this seems to be a petty correction. The I-129F is also used for K3 and K4, and it doesn't make them eligible for K1 classification. We were discussing the K1 and I thought using K1 would make it less confusing.

People have stated that they the USC, or they the couple, have been discriminated against. They have not.

I personally don't think applying standards of what is mainstream within a country when evaluating visa eligibility for a citizen of that country is discrimination. Things have been coined "red flags" for a reason, and I think it is acceptable for the consulate to take those things into consideration.

Petty yes, but keep in mind we have all levels here. Some of us are well versed in the visa process, some are just learning. Just trying to keep it straight so they understand.

As far as announcing that there have been no discrimination to anyone here is a pretty bold statement. Unless you have some magically way to read the minds of these CO's, well then you would have a solid case.

I do agree with you however that they should take all of the red flags into consideration. Surprised? They have an important job to do, and if it is considered a little off what we as American's consider politically correct, well so be it. It needs to be addressed. The only problem here is that so many that have had petitions returned were not allowed to provide our evidence at the consulate so as to ease their concerns. I say to allow them that opportunity, and if it still feels wrong then send it back. BTW, this is in their own guidelines to pursue it this way, I didn't just make it up.

We are all here to listen, support, and advise Private as she is going through this. Those of us that have been through this before are much more knowledgeable about the process, and are extremely passionate about it. the bottom line is that we don't know the reason for the denial. She can listen to our advise or she can toss it off, only she knows what qualifies. There is no need for any of us to make this a personal issue, but yet it happens so easily.

[Bosco 1]

As far as announcing that there have been no discrimination to anyone here is a pretty bold statement. Unless you have some magically way to read the minds of these CO's, well then you would have a solid case.

I will clarify again. No discrimination against the USC. It may feel like that, but no action has been taken against the USC at the consulate level. This part involves them emotionally, but it is not their visa application. It is their fiance/spouse's application. In other words, the USC has no recourse in terms of discrimination laws or the such because this is an issue between the non-USC and the consulate.

[morocco4ever 63]

Well it does and doesn't fit. Now that it is going back to the USCIS then she is going to need to prove her case, not him, her. If she can answer in her rebuttal all of the CO's concerns, she may pass go, collect $200.00. Even if she does prove her case with the CIS, if the consulate still isn't satisfied then the consulate can and will try to find another reason to send it back.

Oh and your right, no 2 cases are alike, and I am certainly not comparing her case to mine. I was merely pointing out something in my case that makes you go hmmmmm......

Point of interest, when a person requests a FOIA did you know that the entire case is first scrutinized to see what needs to be stricken before it is sent to the requestor?

Yes, but what is technically being reaffirmed is their classification, thus why it goes back to the consulate again. The consulate is essentially saying "hey, we think you made a mistake and this is why". USCIS reviews is again with the reasons both from the consulate and the information provided by the petitioner (if offered), determines classification eligibility again, and the cycle begins anew. If the petitioner fails to respond or responds ineffectively, it is subject to denial.

Knowing that the denial/return really isn't about the USC obviously doesn't make it less painful, but I think these are salient points to understand in the process and exactly where our "rights" begin and end.

Very true, we are reaffirming the petition. The difference here is that we as the USC is responsible to providee the evidence that our fiance/spouse was not allowed, or did not provide. So again, we are the responsible party to prove our fiance/husbands intentions are good, and yes, in some cases, that ours are as well.

So now it is reaffirmed. Are we done? No. It has to again go back to the consulate. The consulate is left with 3 choices. Do they still have doubts as to the validity of the relationship? If yes then they again need to find yet another reason to send it back to the CIS. The second would be an out and out denial of the visa. I haven't seen that often, and correct me if I am wrong, but don't they have to give a reason for the denial? The 3rd choice is to issue the visa...which we all want to hear.

Of course we are not all going to agree on all issues, and that is okay with me. But one thing I do think we agree on is that a denial is painful, no matter what the reason.

I just wish someone could reach out and make this nightmare disappear for Private.

[morocco4ever 63]

As far as announcing that there have been no discrimination to anyone here is a pretty bold statement. Unless you have some magically way to read the minds of these CO's, well then you would have a solid case.

I will clarify again. No discrimination against the USC. It may feel like that, but no action has been taken against the USC at the consulate level. This part involves them emotionally, but it is not their visa application. It is their fiance/spouse's application. In other words, the USC has no recourse in terms of discrimination laws or the such because this is an issue between the non-USC and the consulate.

I beg to differ, they do have a recourse. There must be some laws if we can actually sue the USCIS for a returned petition.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/laws/telegram...grams_1388.html

5. Unlike consular determinations regarding visa eligibility,

which are not subject to judicial review, actions relating to

DHS petitions are potentially subject to administrative and/or

judicial review. The Department is regularly named as a co-

defendant with DHS in cases involving the return of immigrant or

nonimmigrant petitions to DHS. Therefore, it is particularly

important that consular petition adjudications are well

documented and clearly state the basis for the petition return.