Another Countdown Thread!!!!!!

[morocco4ever 63]

Just because it is in Africa doesn't mean that Moroccans are accepting of blacks. I saw very few black people while I was there.

Well then maybe you just didn't go far enough south. Black Africans out number Arab Moroccans in some parts and are gaining on Berbers. Go to Rissani and you think you are in Mauritania or Mali.

So true....where exactly is Casablanca?....In the north or south? It seems the consulate would base their opinions on where they are stationed, and what they see there.

[chiquita 0]

Discrimination covers more than just the color of one's skin or ethnic background.

chi

So again, no assumptions here, just rolling off possible ideas of what happened so that when the time comes all avenues are covered. I think maybe you are still stuck on the idea that I am suggesting that they could have denied it because she is black, discriminating against her. Not at all what I am saying. More what I am saying is are they saying to themselves "what is his motive to marry a black woman"......couldn't it be possible that this is what they are thinking? Just don't rule anything out, just think like a CO.

[jordanianprincess 0]

Private, I do wonder about you being black being an issue. I know of another black woman that was also denied, but for the life of me I don't remember her red flags. Of course returning it based on that would be discrimination, they would do it, but they wouldn't admit to it. What they do is look for a something substanial to use. Like in your case, you didn't know each other very long, that is what they used for yours. We all know that many people are married quickly after first meeting...its a personal decision, the difference is that they are not applying for a visa.

JP is right though, not being close to his family is a red flag. There are so many little ones that they look for. I don't know the exact reason for the return, but I do believe that their minds are made up before the interview.

M4, I don't see how being black is an issue in AFRICA. Besides that, she is not on trial her, her man was. It would be more important to figure out what they said to him in the interview.

The red flag I brought up wasn't about her not being close to the family, it was the fact that she is very close with his cousin and works with him in a mosque. That can be seen as an arrangmemt for him to be brought here.

Just because it is in Africa doesn't mean that Moroccans are accepting of blacks. I saw very few black people while I was there. And, not to offend anyone here, but I have known many Arabs that state that they would not marry a black woman. Please keep in mind, this is what I have been told, and I would never believe that all Arabs feel this way, nor do I condone that kind of racism. Soooo...I am not saying it is because she is black, but rather are Moroccans accepting of a black/Arab relationship. So yes, it does come down to him, not her.

As for the red flags, sorry skimmed through that and didn't catch your intent. I agree, they could view it as an arrangement. I also believe that if she is not close to his family then this is also a red flag.

Private has a rough situation here...this is devastating. Although some of what is said here might come across harshly, and I doubt that anyone really intended it to hurt you, it is important you think objectively about everyones ideas for red flags. You just don't know for sure, and they rarely reveal everything that factors in to their decision. Some could be way off, some could be right on the money...just don't discharge anything because it isn't fair.

One more note...I would not want to have the responsibilities that a CO has. Lets face it, they have a huge responsibility. All we want is a chance to prove our case at the consulate level, and to look it over objectively, not with the intent to send it back regardless of the evidence. Isn't that what we all would want? I think these CO's are feeling overwhelmed, and the quick fix is to send it back.

They may not all be accepting of black people, but it does happen. It is also more common in Morocco then any other country. You cant compare Morocco with Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon (other ME countries). However again, I don't think this has anything to do with it at all. They are not going to approve all black people bcz they are black and they will not deny them all bcz they are black. That has nothing to do with it. As Rebecca said, you would have to see the data on it before making an assumption like that.

You are right, they man not all be accepting of black people, but it does happen. I am in no way disputing that. I don't know for sure if a black/arab relationship is more accepted in Morocco than in other ME countries. How do you know this? What I am suggesting is not whether it is right or wrong, not whether Morocco is more or less accepting of these relationships than other surrounding countries, but could this have been a factor in their decision. I wouldn't rule anything out, I would think you would look at it objectively, not with the "nahhh...they wouldn't do that" attitude.

So again, no assumptions here, just rolling off possible ideas of what happened so that when the time comes all avenues are covered. I think maybe you are still stuck on the idea that I am suggesting that they could have denied it because she is black, discriminating against her. Not at all what I am saying. More what I am saying is are they saying to themselves "what is his motive to marry a black woman"......couldn't it be possible that this is what they are thinking? Just don't rule anything out, just think like a CO.

I most definitly rule it out because there are other reasons that have been shown that would possibly lead to the denial. I don't think it has anything to do with skin color. Lots of Moroccans have dark skin and i don't think that is a factor at all, you are less likely to see a black Jordanian or Lebanese man. In any case, I think by trying to pass this off as discriminiation will only hurt Private and not help her in anyway. It most definitly was not documented that way and it would be impossible to prove.

I would focus my efforts on the red flags that we have already identified (there are red flags) and prepare a statement regarding those. I would interrogate the hell out of her man to find out exactly what happened. I would also retain an attorney to find out what I should do next.

I think you are misunderstanding M4, I am ruling out things because it would be a waste of time to focus on them. If they did infact deny her because she is black there would be no way to prove that. The other thing everyone here seems to overlook is they are not focusing on her, they are focusing on him. He has to prove why he deserves the visa. If infact he has no relationship with her family or even her son, and she also has none with his, that is a red flag. If there is a large age difference, red flag. If she was previously married, red flag. Short courtship followed by marriage, red flag. Working with one of his family members, red flag. They are everywhere and each one now needs to be addressed accordingly.

I don't think Military members get special privilages with the CO either. It comes down to proof and they want more.

[morocco4ever 63]

Discrimination covers more than just the color of one's skin or ethnic background.

chi

So again, no assumptions here, just rolling off possible ideas of what happened so that when the time comes all avenues are covered. I think maybe you are still stuck on the idea that I am suggesting that they could have denied it because she is black, discriminating against her. Not at all what I am saying. More what I am saying is are they saying to themselves "what is his motive to marry a black woman"......couldn't it be possible that this is what they are thinking? Just don't rule anything out, just think like a CO.

Yes....and we have both felt the sting. On the positive side, we are winning!

[jordanianprincess 0]

Discrimination covers more than just the color of one's skin or ethnic background.

chi

With all the red flags that have been identified how can you possibly think this is discrimination?

[chiquita 0]

Very good suggestions!! I am surprised to that they were denied being that she is in the military. I was under the impression that her case could be expedited for this very reason. Getting letters is very good. Better yet can you get them faxed to Casa like ASAP?

chi

Whew I made it through all 10 pages. First off, Private I'm so sorry for what you've been through - it sucks really. Just a thought - I see that you do have a child (right?) what kind of relationship does your fiance have with them? I know for us one of the most beneficial aspects of our interview was that my husband had a strong relationship with my son, we had pictures and letters etc. proof of their relationship as well. The CO was very impressed by this. Also, just a thought - is there anyone (a superior commander or something) who knows of your relationship and could write a letter of recommendation or something? Or send documentation that you must stay on post and can not visit again due to your term of duty? It might sound out there but I would be trying anything at this point. Frankly I'm a bit surprised that you being a member of the military would encounter such issues. Also, your senator or rep should be interested as you are a member of the military. Contact both senators and your representative and get them to make inquiries. Get letters from your superiors attesting to their knowledge and the factuality of the relationship. They have seen the pictures, phone bills etc. now you have to get creative. But don't wait get going as soon as possible!

I hope that helps some - prayers are with you sister!

[morocco4ever 63]

Private, I do wonder about you being black being an issue. I know of another black woman that was also denied, but for the life of me I don't remember her red flags. Of course returning it based on that would be discrimination, they would do it, but they wouldn't admit to it. What they do is look for a something substanial to use. Like in your case, you didn't know each other very long, that is what they used for yours. We all know that many people are married quickly after first meeting...its a personal decision, the difference is that they are not applying for a visa.

JP is right though, not being close to his family is a red flag. There are so many little ones that they look for. I don't know the exact reason for the return, but I do believe that their minds are made up before the interview.

M4, I don't see how being black is an issue in AFRICA. Besides that, she is not on trial her, her man was. It would be more important to figure out what they said to him in the interview.

The red flag I brought up wasn't about her not being close to the family, it was the fact that she is very close with his cousin and works with him in a mosque. That can be seen as an arrangmemt for him to be brought here.

Just because it is in Africa doesn't mean that Moroccans are accepting of blacks. I saw very few black people while I was there. And, not to offend anyone here, but I have known many Arabs that state that they would not marry a black woman. Please keep in mind, this is what I have been told, and I would never believe that all Arabs feel this way, nor do I condone that kind of racism. Soooo...I am not saying it is because she is black, but rather are Moroccans accepting of a black/Arab relationship. So yes, it does come down to him, not her.

As for the red flags, sorry skimmed through that and didn't catch your intent. I agree, they could view it as an arrangement. I also believe that if she is not close to his family then this is also a red flag.

Private has a rough situation here...this is devastating. Although some of what is said here might come across harshly, and I doubt that anyone really intended it to hurt you, it is important you think objectively about everyones ideas for red flags. You just don't know for sure, and they rarely reveal everything that factors in to their decision. Some could be way off, some could be right on the money...just don't discharge anything because it isn't fair.

One more note...I would not want to have the responsibilities that a CO has. Lets face it, they have a huge responsibility. All we want is a chance to prove our case at the consulate level, and to look it over objectively, not with the intent to send it back regardless of the evidence. Isn't that what we all would want? I think these CO's are feeling overwhelmed, and the quick fix is to send it back.

They may not all be accepting of black people, but it does happen. It is also more common in Morocco then any other country. You cant compare Morocco with Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon (other ME countries). However again, I don't think this has anything to do with it at all. They are not going to approve all black people bcz they are black and they will not deny them all bcz they are black. That has nothing to do with it. As Rebecca said, you would have to see the data on it before making an assumption like that.

You are right, they man not all be accepting of black people, but it does happen. I am in no way disputing that. I don't know for sure if a black/arab relationship is more accepted in Morocco than in other ME countries. How do you know this? What I am suggesting is not whether it is right or wrong, not whether Morocco is more or less accepting of these relationships than other surrounding countries, but could this have been a factor in their decision. I wouldn't rule anything out, I would think you would look at it objectively, not with the "nahhh...they wouldn't do that" attitude.

So again, no assumptions here, just rolling off possible ideas of what happened so that when the time comes all avenues are covered. I think maybe you are still stuck on the idea that I am suggesting that they could have denied it because she is black, discriminating against her. Not at all what I am saying. More what I am saying is are they saying to themselves "what is his motive to marry a black woman"......couldn't it be possible that this is what they are thinking? Just don't rule anything out, just think like a CO.

I most definitly rule it out because there are other reasons that have been shown that would possibly lead to the denial. I don't think it has anything to do with skin color. Lots of Moroccans have dark skin and i don't think that is a factor at all, you are less likely to see a black Jordanian or Lebanese man. In any case, I think by trying to pass this off as discriminiation will only hurt Private and not help her in anyway. It most definitly was not documented that way and it would be impossible to prove.

I would focus my efforts on the red flags that we have already identified (there are red flags) and prepare a statement regarding those. I would interrogate the hell out of her man to find out exactly what happened. I would also retain an attorney to find out what I should do next.

I think you are misunderstanding M4, I am ruling out things because it would be a waste of time to focus on them. If they did infact deny her because she is black there would be no way to prove that. The other thing everyone here seems to overlook is they are not focusing on her, they are focusing on him. He has to prove why he deserves the visa. If infact he has no relationship with her family or even her son, and she also has none with his, that is a red flag. If there is a large age difference, red flag. If she was previously married, red flag. Short courtship followed by marriage, red flag. Working with one of his family members, red flag. They are everywhere and each one now needs to be addressed accordingly.

I don't think Military members get special privilages with the CO either. It comes down to proof and they want more.

To rule out possibilities of multiple reasons for a return would be foolish. When it comes time to plead her case she needs to have all areas covered. If she doesn't then they have another opening to return the case a second time....it has happened.

Do you honestly think that in my case they really sent it back for the reasons they stated? You are giving CO's way to much credit here. No matter what the reasons they stated, its cut and dried...they didn't like our age difference...there is no doubt in my mind. That with the fact that they mistakenly thought that his sister arranged our marriage....that wasn't addressed as well on the CO's notes to the USCIS.

In my rebuttal I covered all areas, not just what the CO's notes were on. Did it work at the USCIS level? Yes. Will it work at the consulate level? I guess we will wait and see, but one thing I know is that they can not send it back again for things that were addressed in my rebuttal.

JP, I respect a lot of your ideas here, they are good. The only thing is that you have never had a petition returned. There is so many factors with this that most people going through a regular immigration process can understand unless they have been there.

[chiquita 0]

Definition: discrimination

treating people differently through prejudice: unfair treatment of one person or group, usually because of prejudice about race, ethnicity, age, religion, or gender

To me many are treated different by the CO because of one of these reasons. For us it was age and race.

Prejugje is just not these reasons though. To have UNFAIR treatment is discrimination in and of itself.

chi

Discrimination covers more than just the color of one's skin or ethnic background.

chi

So again, no assumptions here, just rolling off possible ideas of what happened so that when the time comes all avenues are covered. I think maybe you are still stuck on the idea that I am suggesting that they could have denied it because she is black, discriminating against her. Not at all what I am saying. More what I am saying is are they saying to themselves "what is his motive to marry a black woman"......couldn't it be possible that this is what they are thinking? Just don't rule anything out, just think like a CO.

Yes....and we have both felt the sting. On the positive side, we are winning!

[Bosco 1]

Very good suggestions!! I am surprised to that they were denied being that she is in the military. I was under the impression that her case could be expedited for this very reason. Getting letters is very good. Better yet can you get them faxed to Casa like ASAP?

chi

Her job is really irrelevant. The USC really does nothing more than potentially qualify the beneficiary for a visa under certain categories. The beneficiary is the one who has to prove their eligibility under that category when they are at the consulate. Her job doesn't make him better (or worse) of an applicant.

[jordanianprincess 0]

Private, I do wonder about you being black being an issue. I know of another black woman that was also denied, but for the life of me I don't remember her red flags. Of course returning it based on that would be discrimination, they would do it, but they wouldn't admit to it. What they do is look for a something substanial to use. Like in your case, you didn't know each other very long, that is what they used for yours. We all know that many people are married quickly after first meeting...its a personal decision, the difference is that they are not applying for a visa.

JP is right though, not being close to his family is a red flag. There are so many little ones that they look for. I don't know the exact reason for the return, but I do believe that their minds are made up before the interview.

M4, I don't see how being black is an issue in AFRICA. Besides that, she is not on trial her, her man was. It would be more important to figure out what they said to him in the interview.

The red flag I brought up wasn't about her not being close to the family, it was the fact that she is very close with his cousin and works with him in a mosque. That can be seen as an arrangmemt for him to be brought here.

Just because it is in Africa doesn't mean that Moroccans are accepting of blacks. I saw very few black people while I was there. And, not to offend anyone here, but I have known many Arabs that state that they would not marry a black woman. Please keep in mind, this is what I have been told, and I would never believe that all Arabs feel this way, nor do I condone that kind of racism. Soooo...I am not saying it is because she is black, but rather are Moroccans accepting of a black/Arab relationship. So yes, it does come down to him, not her.

As for the red flags, sorry skimmed through that and didn't catch your intent. I agree, they could view it as an arrangement. I also believe that if she is not close to his family then this is also a red flag.

Private has a rough situation here...this is devastating. Although some of what is said here might come across harshly, and I doubt that anyone really intended it to hurt you, it is important you think objectively about everyones ideas for red flags. You just don't know for sure, and they rarely reveal everything that factors in to their decision. Some could be way off, some could be right on the money...just don't discharge anything because it isn't fair.

One more note...I would not want to have the responsibilities that a CO has. Lets face it, they have a huge responsibility. All we want is a chance to prove our case at the consulate level, and to look it over objectively, not with the intent to send it back regardless of the evidence. Isn't that what we all would want? I think these CO's are feeling overwhelmed, and the quick fix is to send it back.

They may not all be accepting of black people, but it does happen. It is also more common in Morocco then any other country. You cant compare Morocco with Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon (other ME countries). However again, I don't think this has anything to do with it at all. They are not going to approve all black people bcz they are black and they will not deny them all bcz they are black. That has nothing to do with it. As Rebecca said, you would have to see the data on it before making an assumption like that.

You are right, they man not all be accepting of black people, but it does happen. I am in no way disputing that. I don't know for sure if a black/arab relationship is more accepted in Morocco than in other ME countries. How do you know this? What I am suggesting is not whether it is right or wrong, not whether Morocco is more or less accepting of these relationships than other surrounding countries, but could this have been a factor in their decision. I wouldn't rule anything out, I would think you would look at it objectively, not with the "nahhh...they wouldn't do that" attitude.

So again, no assumptions here, just rolling off possible ideas of what happened so that when the time comes all avenues are covered. I think maybe you are still stuck on the idea that I am suggesting that they could have denied it because she is black, discriminating against her. Not at all what I am saying. More what I am saying is are they saying to themselves "what is his motive to marry a black woman"......couldn't it be possible that this is what they are thinking? Just don't rule anything out, just think like a CO.

I most definitly rule it out because there are other reasons that have been shown that would possibly lead to the denial. I don't think it has anything to do with skin color. Lots of Moroccans have dark skin and i don't think that is a factor at all, you are less likely to see a black Jordanian or Lebanese man. In any case, I think by trying to pass this off as discriminiation will only hurt Private and not help her in anyway. It most definitly was not documented that way and it would be impossible to prove.

I would focus my efforts on the red flags that we have already identified (there are red flags) and prepare a statement regarding those. I would interrogate the hell out of her man to find out exactly what happened. I would also retain an attorney to find out what I should do next.

I think you are misunderstanding M4, I am ruling out things because it would be a waste of time to focus on them. If they did infact deny her because she is black there would be no way to prove that. The other thing everyone here seems to overlook is they are not focusing on her, they are focusing on him. He has to prove why he deserves the visa. If infact he has no relationship with her family or even her son, and she also has none with his, that is a red flag. If there is a large age difference, red flag. If she was previously married, red flag. Short courtship followed by marriage, red flag. Working with one of his family members, red flag. They are everywhere and each one now needs to be addressed accordingly.

I don't think Military members get special privilages with the CO either. It comes down to proof and they want more.

To rule out possibilities of multiple reasons for a return would be foolish. When it comes time to plead her case she needs to have all areas covered. If she doesn't then they have another opening to return the case a second time....it has happened.

Do you honestly think that in my case they really sent it back for the reasons they stated? You are giving CO's way to much credit here. No matter what the reasons they stated, its cut and dried...they didn't like our age difference...there is no doubt in my mind. That with the fact that they mistakenly thought that his sister arranged our marriage....that wasn't addressed as well on the CO's notes to the USCIS.

In my rebuttal I covered all areas, not just what the CO's notes were on. Did it work at the USCIS level? Yes. Will it work at the consulate level? I guess we will wait and see, but one thing I know is that they can not send it back again for things that were addressed in my rebuttal.

JP, I respect a lot of your ideas here, they are good. The only thing is that you have never had a petition returned. There is so many factors with this that most people going through a regular immigration process can understand unless they have been there.

Ok let me ask you this, how do you think that she can prove that he was denied because she is black? I am not ruling out any possiblity except this one. The entire embasssy would have to be investigated to prove this. Are you aware of the red flags she currently has in her case? They don't believe the relationship is valid, and from what I have read there are many red flags to support what they are saying. She will have to prove otherwise. If there were no red flags then I would empathize more with what you are saying but the fact of the matter is there are many red flags and Private was anticipating a denial far before she recieved her NOA2.

I think you are misunderstand my posts and the posts of others here. We all feel bad for her and want her to get approved, but feeding her with false hope is not going to help anyone. She needs to identify why she got denied and get moving on that. I realize that both yourself and Chiquita were denied before, but your cases are not identical to Privates. There are some major red flags here according to what the DOS looks for in the validity of a relationship, maybe you didnt have those in your relationship. The 2 bigs flags that immediatly jump out at me are the short courtship followed by marriage and the fact that she knows his cousin through the mosque. I would be willing to bet that the embassy saw this and thought it was arranged.

Definition: discrimination

treating people differently through prejudice: unfair treatment of one person or group, usually because of prejudice about race, ethnicity, age, religion, or gender

To me many are treated different by the CO because of one of these reasons. For us it was age and race.

Prejugje is just not these reasons though. To have UNFAIR treatment is discrimination in and of itself.

chi

Thats not prejudice, that is one of the guidelines set out by the DOS. I'm pretty sure that everyone knows what those are by now. We may not like them and we may not agree with them but they are there. The DOS of says that my divorce is a red flag. Do I agree with them? Hell NO! I am willing to take that chance in the embassy and I am fully aware that they may deny my visa because of the red flags we have.

[morocco4ever 63]

Ok let me ask you this, how do you think that she can prove that he was denied because she is black? I am not ruling out any possiblity except this one. The entire embasssy would have to be investigated to prove this. Are you aware of the red flags she currently has in her case? They don't believe the relationship is valid, and from what I have read there are many red flags to support what they are saying. She will have to prove otherwise. If there were no red flags then I would empathize more with what you are saying but the fact of the matter is there are many red flags and Private was anticipating a denial far before she recieved her NOA2.

I think you are misunderstand my posts and the posts of others here. We all feel bad for her and want her to get approved, but feeding her with false hope is not going to help anyone. She needs to identify why she got denied and get moving on that. I realize that both yourself and Chiquita were denied before, but your cases are not identical to Privates. There are some major red flags here according to what the DOS looks for in the validity of a relationship, maybe you didnt have those in your relationship. The 2 bigs flags that immediatly jump out at me are the short courtship followed by marriage and the fact that she knows his cousin through the mosque. I would be willing to bet that the embassy saw this and thought it was arranged.

If that was indeed a factor in her case then does need to be addressed, and very delicately. For example, in our case age discrimination. They really shouldn't use it to send back a petition right, but it happens. Its not the norm for a Moroccan man to marry an older woman. Oh yes, and they actually did say that to one of our group about the age difference.

So in my rebuttal I stated that although it is uncommon to see a couple of such a large age difference together, it does and has happened. We had factored through the pros and cons and decided together that love knows no age. I also pointed out that older men have been marrying younger women for decades now without anyone batting an eye, why should this be treated any differently?

In her rebuttal, if she feels this was a factor she would have to address this similarly. Now I have to admit, this one is touchy....but not for her, rather for the DHS and DOS, she can address it if she chooses. There have been instances where court actions has been prompted for sent back petitions without concrete evidence, and they have won.

As far as my misunderstanding your intentions...not at all. I can't quite see what I have written that would suggest to you anything different. I have already stated that you have some very valid points, and I mean it, you do. Private just needs to take our suggestions and see what really applies to her case, then from there she will address her red flags.

JP, I know we are not ever going to agree on the black issue...thats cool. I think it is time we agree to disagree on this subject.

Oh yes, and feeding her with false hope? We are letting her know that she can win, so many of our group is doing it. Is that really false hope?

Edited October 17, 2006 by Morocco4ever

[jordanianprincess 0]

Ok let me ask you this, how do you think that she can prove that he was denied because she is black? I am not ruling out any possiblity except this one. The entire embasssy would have to be investigated to prove this. Are you aware of the red flags she currently has in her case? They don't believe the relationship is valid, and from what I have read there are many red flags to support what they are saying. She will have to prove otherwise. If there were no red flags then I would empathize more with what you are saying but the fact of the matter is there are many red flags and Private was anticipating a denial far before she recieved her NOA2.

I think you are misunderstand my posts and the posts of others here. We all feel bad for her and want her to get approved, but feeding her with false hope is not going to help anyone. She needs to identify why she got denied and get moving on that. I realize that both yourself and Chiquita were denied before, but your cases are not identical to Privates. There are some major red flags here according to what the DOS looks for in the validity of a relationship, maybe you didnt have those in your relationship. The 2 bigs flags that immediatly jump out at me are the short courtship followed by marriage and the fact that she knows his cousin through the mosque. I would be willing to bet that the embassy saw this and thought it was arranged.

If that was indeed a factor in her case then does need to be addressed, and very delicately. For example, in our case age discrimination. They really shouldn't use it to send back a petition right, but it happens. Its not the norm for a Moroccan man to marry an older woman. Oh yes, and they actually did say that to one of our group about the age difference.

So in my rebuttal I stated that although it is uncommon to see a couple of such a large age difference together, it does and has happened. We had factored through the pros and cons and decided together that love knows no age. I also pointed out that older men have been marrying younger women for decades now without anyone batting an eye, why should this be treated any differently?

In her rebuttal, if she feels this was a factor she would have to address this similarly. Now I have to admit, this one is touchy....but not for her, rather for the DHS and DOS, she can address it if she chooses. There have been instances where court actions has been prompted for sent back petitions without concrete evidence, and they have won.

As far as my misunderstanding your intentions...not at all. I can't quite see what I have written that would suggest to you anything different. I have already stated that you have some very valid points, and I mean it, you do. Private just needs to take our suggestions and see what really applies to her case, then from there she will address her red flags.

JP, I know we are not ever going to agree on the black issue...thats cool. I think it is time we agree to disagree on this subject.

Deal

[chiquita 0]

I never said discrimination was a red flag nor did I say she could use it as a factor. I merely made a statement that it is discrimination. Can she use it for her rebuttal? I don't know at this point.

There has been mud slinging at me and I am only trying to help. I am entitled to my opinion. I have been through the denial nightmare and I do know a little.

All we want to do is help her. Right now her only option is to try and get the denial overturned at the consular level. Nothing else matters at this point. Nothing.

If her case is sent back, then she will have to find the exact reasons, if she can, and try to overcome them.

Yes, she has told us a few things. There may be more we need to learn to be able to help her. At the moment she and her husband are in shock and need help.

Getting letters from her officers and faxing them to cas is a great idea is she can get them.

PRIVATE....see if you can get those letters!!! Even letters from your family would help. Letters from anyone who knows you 2 as a couple! Fax them to casa. Make sure each letter has an address and phone number for the person so the consulate sees these are real people who can be contacted.

See, I can't stop helping her. i dont want to get caught up in all the mud slinging here. I just want to help.

chi

Private, I do wonder about you being black being an issue. I know of another black woman that was also denied, but for the life of me I don't remember her red flags. Of course returning it based on that would be discrimination, they would do it, but they wouldn't admit to it. What they do is look for a something substanial to use. Like in your case, you didn't know each other very long, that is what they used for yours. We all know that many people are married quickly after first meeting...its a personal decision, the difference is that they are not applying for a visa.

JP is right though, not being close to his family is a red flag. There are so many little ones that they look for. I don't know the exact reason for the return, but I do believe that their minds are made up before the interview.

M4, I don't see how being black is an issue in AFRICA. Besides that, she is not on trial her, her man was. It would be more important to figure out what they said to him in the interview.

The red flag I brought up wasn't about her not being close to the family, it was the fact that she is very close with his cousin and works with him in a mosque. That can be seen as an arrangmemt for him to be brought here.

Just because it is in Africa doesn't mean that Moroccans are accepting of blacks. I saw very few black people while I was there. And, not to offend anyone here, but I have known many Arabs that state that they would not marry a black woman. Please keep in mind, this is what I have been told, and I would never believe that all Arabs feel this way, nor do I condone that kind of racism. Soooo...I am not saying it is because she is black, but rather are Moroccans accepting of a black/Arab relationship. So yes, it does come down to him, not her.

As for the red flags, sorry skimmed through that and didn't catch your intent. I agree, they could view it as an arrangement. I also believe that if she is not close to his family then this is also a red flag.

Private has a rough situation here...this is devastating. Although some of what is said here might come across harshly, and I doubt that anyone really intended it to hurt you, it is important you think objectively about everyones ideas for red flags. You just don't know for sure, and they rarely reveal everything that factors in to their decision. Some could be way off, some could be right on the money...just don't discharge anything because it isn't fair.

One more note...I would not want to have the responsibilities that a CO has. Lets face it, they have a huge responsibility. All we want is a chance to prove our case at the consulate level, and to look it over objectively, not with the intent to send it back regardless of the evidence. Isn't that what we all would want? I think these CO's are feeling overwhelmed, and the quick fix is to send it back.

They may not all be accepting of black people, but it does happen. It is also more common in Morocco then any other country. You cant compare Morocco with Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon (other ME countries). However again, I don't think this has anything to do with it at all. They are not going to approve all black people bcz they are black and they will not deny them all bcz they are black. That has nothing to do with it. As Rebecca said, you would have to see the data on it before making an assumption like that.

You are right, they man not all be accepting of black people, but it does happen. I am in no way disputing that. I don't know for sure if a black/arab relationship is more accepted in Morocco than in other ME countries. How do you know this? What I am suggesting is not whether it is right or wrong, not whether Morocco is more or less accepting of these relationships than other surrounding countries, but could this have been a factor in their decision. I wouldn't rule anything out, I would think you would look at it objectively, not with the "nahhh...they wouldn't do that" attitude.

So again, no assumptions here, just rolling off possible ideas of what happened so that when the time comes all avenues are covered. I think maybe you are still stuck on the idea that I am suggesting that they could have denied it because she is black, discriminating against her. Not at all what I am saying. More what I am saying is are they saying to themselves "what is his motive to marry a black woman"......couldn't it be possible that this is what they are thinking? Just don't rule anything out, just think like a CO.

I most definitly rule it out because there are other reasons that have been shown that would possibly lead to the denial. I don't think it has anything to do with skin color. Lots of Moroccans have dark skin and i don't think that is a factor at all, you are less likely to see a black Jordanian or Lebanese man. In any case, I think by trying to pass this off as discriminiation will only hurt Private and not help her in anyway. It most definitly was not documented that way and it would be impossible to prove.

I would focus my efforts on the red flags that we have already identified (there are red flags) and prepare a statement regarding those. I would interrogate the hell out of her man to find out exactly what happened. I would also retain an attorney to find out what I should do next.

I think you are misunderstanding M4, I am ruling out things because it would be a waste of time to focus on them. If they did infact deny her because she is black there would be no way to prove that. The other thing everyone here seems to overlook is they are not focusing on her, they are focusing on him. He has to prove why he deserves the visa. If infact he has no relationship with her family or even her son, and she also has none with his, that is a red flag. If there is a large age difference, red flag. If she was previously married, red flag. Short courtship followed by marriage, red flag. Working with one of his family members, red flag. They are everywhere and each one now needs to be addressed accordingly.

I don't think Military members get special privilages with the CO either. It comes down to proof and they want more.

To rule out possibilities of multiple reasons for a return would be foolish. When it comes time to plead her case she needs to have all areas covered. If she doesn't then they have another opening to return the case a second time....it has happened.

Do you honestly think that in my case they really sent it back for the reasons they stated? You are giving CO's way to much credit here. No matter what the reasons they stated, its cut and dried...they didn't like our age difference...there is no doubt in my mind. That with the fact that they mistakenly thought that his sister arranged our marriage....that wasn't addressed as well on the CO's notes to the USCIS.

In my rebuttal I covered all areas, not just what the CO's notes were on. Did it work at the USCIS level? Yes. Will it work at the consulate level? I guess we will wait and see, but one thing I know is that they can not send it back again for things that were addressed in my rebuttal.

JP, I respect a lot of your ideas here, they are good. The only thing is that you have never had a petition returned. There is so many factors with this that most people going through a regular immigration process can understand unless they have been there.

Ok let me ask you this, how do you think that she can prove that he was denied because she is black? I am not ruling out any possiblity except this one. The entire embasssy would have to be investigated to prove this. Are you aware of the red flags she currently has in her case? They don't believe the relationship is valid, and from what I have read there are many red flags to support what they are saying. She will have to prove otherwise. If there were no red flags then I would empathize more with what you are saying but the fact of the matter is there are many red flags and Private was anticipating a denial far before she recieved her NOA2.

I think you are misunderstand my posts and the posts of others here. We all feel bad for her and want her to get approved, but feeding her with false hope is not going to help anyone. She needs to identify why she got denied and get moving on that. I realize that both yourself and Chiquita were denied before, but your cases are not identical to Privates. There are some major red flags here according to what the DOS looks for in the validity of a relationship, maybe you didnt have those in your relationship. The 2 bigs flags that immediatly jump out at me are the short courtship followed by marriage and the fact that she knows his cousin through the mosque. I would be willing to bet that the embassy saw this and thought it was arranged.

Definition: discrimination

treating people differently through prejudice: unfair treatment of one person or group, usually because of prejudice about race, ethnicity, age, religion, or gender

To me many are treated different by the CO because of one of these reasons. For us it was age and race.

Prejugje is just not these reasons though. To have UNFAIR treatment is discrimination in and of itself.

chi

Thats not prejudice, that is one of the guidelines set out by the DOS. I'm pretty sure that everyone knows what those are by now. We may not like them and we may not agree with them but they are there. The DOS of says that my divorce is a red flag. Do I agree with them? Hell NO! I am willing to take that chance in the embassy and I am fully aware that they may deny my visa because of the red flags we have.

[jordanianprincess 0]

Let me remind you that I am trying to help as well. You can sit here and act like a victem but the fact of the matter is you came into this thread like a deputy trying to tell everyone how to act. You can help Private in your way and that is fine, but don't tell others how they should post. If all you want to offer is well-wishing thats your choice, support comes in more forms than one. You came in here slinging mud and you should have no issue getting it back in return.

I never said discrimination was a red flag nor did I say she could use it as a factor. I merely made a statement that it is discrimination. Can she use it for her rebuttal? I don't know at this point.

There has been mud slinging at me and I am only trying to help. I am entitled to my opinion. I have been through the denial nightmare and I do know a little.

All we want to do is help her. Right now her only option is to try and get the denial overturned at the consular level. Nothing else matters at this point. Nothing.

If her case is sent back, then she will have to find the exact reasons, if she can, and try to overcome them.

Yes, she has told us a few things. There may be more we need to learn to be able to help her. At the moment she and her husband are in shock and need help.

Getting letters from her officers and faxing them to cas is a great idea is she can get them.

PRIVATE....see if you can get those letters!!! Even letters from your family would help. Letters from anyone who knows you 2 as a couple! Fax them to casa. Make sure each letter has an address and phone number for the person so the consulate sees these are real people who can be contacted.

See, I can't stop helping her. i dont want to get caught up in all the mud slinging here. I just want to help.

chi

Private, I do wonder about you being black being an issue. I know of another black woman that was also denied, but for the life of me I don't remember her red flags. Of course returning it based on that would be discrimination, they would do it, but they wouldn't admit to it. What they do is look for a something substanial to use. Like in your case, you didn't know each other very long, that is what they used for yours. We all know that many people are married quickly after first meeting...its a personal decision, the difference is that they are not applying for a visa.

JP is right though, not being close to his family is a red flag. There are so many little ones that they look for. I don't know the exact reason for the return, but I do believe that their minds are made up before the interview.

M4, I don't see how being black is an issue in AFRICA. Besides that, she is not on trial her, her man was. It would be more important to figure out what they said to him in the interview.

The red flag I brought up wasn't about her not being close to the family, it was the fact that she is very close with his cousin and works with him in a mosque. That can be seen as an arrangmemt for him to be brought here.

Just because it is in Africa doesn't mean that Moroccans are accepting of blacks. I saw very few black people while I was there. And, not to offend anyone here, but I have known many Arabs that state that they would not marry a black woman. Please keep in mind, this is what I have been told, and I would never believe that all Arabs feel this way, nor do I condone that kind of racism. Soooo...I am not saying it is because she is black, but rather are Moroccans accepting of a black/Arab relationship. So yes, it does come down to him, not her.

As for the red flags, sorry skimmed through that and didn't catch your intent. I agree, they could view it as an arrangement. I also believe that if she is not close to his family then this is also a red flag.

Private has a rough situation here...this is devastating. Although some of what is said here might come across harshly, and I doubt that anyone really intended it to hurt you, it is important you think objectively about everyones ideas for red flags. You just don't know for sure, and they rarely reveal everything that factors in to their decision. Some could be way off, some could be right on the money...just don't discharge anything because it isn't fair.

One more note...I would not want to have the responsibilities that a CO has. Lets face it, they have a huge responsibility. All we want is a chance to prove our case at the consulate level, and to look it over objectively, not with the intent to send it back regardless of the evidence. Isn't that what we all would want? I think these CO's are feeling overwhelmed, and the quick fix is to send it back.

They may not all be accepting of black people, but it does happen. It is also more common in Morocco then any other country. You cant compare Morocco with Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon (other ME countries). However again, I don't think this has anything to do with it at all. They are not going to approve all black people bcz they are black and they will not deny them all bcz they are black. That has nothing to do with it. As Rebecca said, you would have to see the data on it before making an assumption like that.

You are right, they man not all be accepting of black people, but it does happen. I am in no way disputing that. I don't know for sure if a black/arab relationship is more accepted in Morocco than in other ME countries. How do you know this? What I am suggesting is not whether it is right or wrong, not whether Morocco is more or less accepting of these relationships than other surrounding countries, but could this have been a factor in their decision. I wouldn't rule anything out, I would think you would look at it objectively, not with the "nahhh...they wouldn't do that" attitude.

So again, no assumptions here, just rolling off possible ideas of what happened so that when the time comes all avenues are covered. I think maybe you are still stuck on the idea that I am suggesting that they could have denied it because she is black, discriminating against her. Not at all what I am saying. More what I am saying is are they saying to themselves "what is his motive to marry a black woman"......couldn't it be possible that this is what they are thinking? Just don't rule anything out, just think like a CO.

I most definitly rule it out because there are other reasons that have been shown that would possibly lead to the denial. I don't think it has anything to do with skin color. Lots of Moroccans have dark skin and i don't think that is a factor at all, you are less likely to see a black Jordanian or Lebanese man. In any case, I think by trying to pass this off as discriminiation will only hurt Private and not help her in anyway. It most definitly was not documented that way and it would be impossible to prove.

I would focus my efforts on the red flags that we have already identified (there are red flags) and prepare a statement regarding those. I would interrogate the hell out of her man to find out exactly what happened. I would also retain an attorney to find out what I should do next.

I think you are misunderstanding M4, I am ruling out things because it would be a waste of time to focus on them. If they did infact deny her because she is black there would be no way to prove that. The other thing everyone here seems to overlook is they are not focusing on her, they are focusing on him. He has to prove why he deserves the visa. If infact he has no relationship with her family or even her son, and she also has none with his, that is a red flag. If there is a large age difference, red flag. If she was previously married, red flag. Short courtship followed by marriage, red flag. Working with one of his family members, red flag. They are everywhere and each one now needs to be addressed accordingly.

I don't think Military members get special privilages with the CO either. It comes down to proof and they want more.

To rule out possibilities of multiple reasons for a return would be foolish. When it comes time to plead her case she needs to have all areas covered. If she doesn't then they have another opening to return the case a second time....it has happened.

Do you honestly think that in my case they really sent it back for the reasons they stated? You are giving CO's way to much credit here. No matter what the reasons they stated, its cut and dried...they didn't like our age difference...there is no doubt in my mind. That with the fact that they mistakenly thought that his sister arranged our marriage....that wasn't addressed as well on the CO's notes to the USCIS.

In my rebuttal I covered all areas, not just what the CO's notes were on. Did it work at the USCIS level? Yes. Will it work at the consulate level? I guess we will wait and see, but one thing I know is that they can not send it back again for things that were addressed in my rebuttal.

JP, I respect a lot of your ideas here, they are good. The only thing is that you have never had a petition returned. There is so many factors with this that most people going through a regular immigration process can understand unless they have been there.

Ok let me ask you this, how do you think that she can prove that he was denied because she is black? I am not ruling out any possiblity except this one. The entire embasssy would have to be investigated to prove this. Are you aware of the red flags she currently has in her case? They don't believe the relationship is valid, and from what I have read there are many red flags to support what they are saying. She will have to prove otherwise. If there were no red flags then I would empathize more with what you are saying but the fact of the matter is there are many red flags and Private was anticipating a denial far before she recieved her NOA2.

I think you are misunderstand my posts and the posts of others here. We all feel bad for her and want her to get approved, but feeding her with false hope is not going to help anyone. She needs to identify why she got denied and get moving on that. I realize that both yourself and Chiquita were denied before, but your cases are not identical to Privates. There are some major red flags here according to what the DOS looks for in the validity of a relationship, maybe you didnt have those in your relationship. The 2 bigs flags that immediatly jump out at me are the short courtship followed by marriage and the fact that she knows his cousin through the mosque. I would be willing to bet that the embassy saw this and thought it was arranged.

Definition: discrimination

treating people differently through prejudice: unfair treatment of one person or group, usually because of prejudice about race, ethnicity, age, religion, or gender

To me many are treated different by the CO because of one of these reasons. For us it was age and race.

Prejugje is just not these reasons though. To have UNFAIR treatment is discrimination in and of itself.

chi

Thats not prejudice, that is one of the guidelines set out by the DOS. I'm pretty sure that everyone knows what those are by now. We may not like them and we may not agree with them but they are there. The DOS of says that my divorce is a red flag. Do I agree with them? Hell NO! I am willing to take that chance in the embassy and I am fully aware that they may deny my visa because of the red flags we have.

[chiquita 0]

Oh and PRIVATE...

Compile a letter yourself, it cant hurt! Address the short courtship and marriage. Due to military commitment??

chi