legally married?

[zauberblume 0]

The point you guys and gals are trying to make is completely pointless. For all those who have NOT had or will not have any wedding ceremony outside of the US, you are trapped in the same stupid POE system as the rest who may have a ceremony outside of the US. There is NO way that you can prove to the POE any better than someone who has had a wedding ceremony which did NOT accord legal marriage status to them. We're all in the exact same boat!

A reasonable point, indeed.

Except those that have a non-binding ceremony in their home country may be happier than the ones that didn't. They got a chance to share this beautiful moment with their family. Others, unfortunately, didn't.

[andrewwynn 0]

very interesting comment about honoring which rules..

and extremely interesting comments about the happiness factor.

For a marriage to be legal in Indonesia, the law requires two separate ceremonies: a religious ceremony (Christian - Protestant or Catholic - Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist), followed by a civil ceremony performed a government registrar. Before the wedding, you must apply in person for a "certificate of non-impediment", issued by your country's embassy or consulate. (If you only have the religious ceremony, you will receive a church marriage certificate only.) Remember that a Balinese traditional ceremonial blessing, or a northern Thai-style Lanna blessing, is a blessing only, even though it is usually held in true wedding style.

That is from this page

So.. there ya go.. at least in Bali (Indonesia).. what the locals will call a wedding is actually only a 'blessing'.. even if done at a church and in the true wedding style.. now you have some proper armament to use the right terminology should you decide to be 'blessed' before your usa wedding so you can use a K1 visa. Simple as that, it really can't be clearer from a legal point of view.

Like i mentioned.. glad that i've shifted from that line of reasoning to the 'keep it simple' and actually get married vs 'blessed'.. it really simplifies things.

-awr

[Caladan 19]

I find the proposition that people are advising against non-legal wedding ceremonies before the K-1 because they're jealous to be pretty ridiculous. Because, you know, this place is just full of chock-full people telling people bad advice so their NOA2 takes longer, 'cause they're jealous.

Having a non-binding wedding ceremony could increase the chances that a) someone slips up at the PoE or adjustment of status interviews or B) the couple gets accidentally married because they didn't check the laws for their area. Yes, it could probably all be sorted out in the end if something happens, after thousands of dollars of legal fees, and more likely than not, there will be no problem at all. But it's not just as easy as 'do whatever you want because everyone else is jealous of your wedding party'; make sure you check up on your locale's laws.

[KarenCee 3]

I guess I just don't understand....why do some of y'all want to do this anyway. I mean, the K1 is a fiancé(e) visa, if you want to get married first, then do so and file the K3. Why in god's name would anyone want to take a chance of being denied??? This journey is stressful enough without having to bring this component into it.

*sigh* not being judgmental...just wondering is all.

[zauberblume 0]

I find the proposition that people are advising against non-legal wedding ceremonies before the K-1 because they're jealous to be pretty ridiculous. Because, you know, this place is just full of chock-full people telling people bad advice so their NOA2 takes longer, 'cause they're jealous.

Having a non-binding wedding ceremony could increase the chances that a) someone slips up at the PoE or adjustment of status interviews or B) the couple gets accidentally married because they didn't check the laws for their area. Yes, it could probably all be sorted out in the end if something happens, after thousands of dollars of legal fees, and more likely than not, there will be no problem at all. But it's not just as easy as 'do whatever you want because everyone else is jealous of your wedding party'; make sure you check up on your locale's laws.

Tell me, how do you slip up at the POE and AOS interview and mention that you had a non-binding celebration in your home country? Most people in this process have already been duly warned about what to say and what not to say. That includes visiting your fiance or spouse in America while the visa is processing!

What exactly happens at the POE? In my experience, nothing happened. No questions were asked.

I just don't understand how anything about a non-legal ceremony could come up unless you are directly asked. In that case, you can provide the evidence attesting to the fact that the ceremony was not legal. Other than that, I don't see what the big problem is.

There's always a possibility of denial in this process. Arguably having a non-binding ceremony does not greatly increase a chance of denial given the particulars of each individual case.

As long as people are aware of their options, then I don't see what the big fuss is about.

[rob&ana 0]

The point you guys and gals are trying to make is completely pointless. For all those who have NOT had or will not have any wedding ceremony outside of the US, you are trapped in the same stupid POE system as the rest who may have a ceremony outside of the US. There is NO way that you can prove to the POE any better than someone who has had a wedding ceremony which did NOT accord legal marriage status to them. We're all in the exact same boat!

A reasonable point, indeed.

Except those that have a non-binding ceremony in their home country may be happier than the ones that didn't. They got a chance to share this beautiful moment with their family. Others, unfortunately, didn't.

Applause to this!!

It really might not matter to some, but to others it might!

And it's true, you can go back and have it, but it is not the same after you've been married for a year or so!

[Anyta Holland 1]

I find the proposition that people are advising against non-legal wedding ceremonies before the K-1 because they're jealous to be pretty ridiculous. Because, you know, this place is just full of chock-full people telling people bad advice so their NOA2 takes longer, 'cause they're jealous.

Having a non-binding wedding ceremony could increase the chances that a) someone slips up at the PoE or adjustment of status interviews or B) the couple gets accidentally married because they didn't check the laws for their area. Yes, it could probably all be sorted out in the end if something happens, after thousands of dollars of legal fees, and more likely than not, there will be no problem at all. But it's not just as easy as 'do whatever you want because everyone else is jealous of your wedding party'; make sure you check up on your locale's laws.

Tell me, how do you slip up at the POE and AOS interview and mention that you had a non-binding celebration in your home country? Most people in this process have already been duly warned about what to say and what not to say. That includes visiting your fiance or spouse in America while the visa is processing!

What exactly happens at the POE? In my experience, nothing happened. No questions were asked.

I just don't understand how anything about a non-legal ceremony could come up unless you are directly asked. In that case, you can provide the evidence attesting to the fact that the ceremony was not legal. Other than that, I don't see what the big problem is.

There's always a possibility of denial in this process. Arguably having a non-binding ceremony does not greatly increase a chance of denial given the particulars of each individual case.

As long as people are aware of their options, then I don't see what the big fuss is about.

That is exactly the point I have been trying to make!

At least now I know that I am not the only crazy one thinking like that!

[zyggy 9]

However, it is my opinion, that not revealing the presence of a wedding ceremony, legally binding or not, would make a difference in the CBP officer making a determination on the admissibility of the alien. Therefore, not revealing this fact would be a "material misrepresentation".

Ziggy,

I understand that you are trying to set the record, so people dont go around doing dumb things and messing up their processes. And frankly, I must be really dumb cause even the Bachelor example went over my head.

But if I went thru immigration at POE, and the CBP didnt ask me, and I didnt give any signs of being 'legally or illegally' married, and he let me in. And then, if I went thru AOS, and I didnt use my wedding pictures or whatever I have from the ceremony, as evidence. Will I still be in trouble??

No... If it isn't asked.. then you would not be in trouble... if you are not legally married, and tried to enter on a K1, even if you had a non-legal ceremony, in my opinion that would not be a material misrepresentation, since you are legally free and able to marry....

Also in the terms of making a material misrepresentation, if you are truthful about having a non-legal marriage ceremony if you are asked, you would not be making a material misrepresentation... you would be telling the truth and giving the proper information that would allow the CBP officer to make their decision regarding your eligibility for admission to the US...

However, if it is asked and you do not divulge it, then in my opinion a CBP officer could see that as a material misrepresentation... and right or wrong, since there's no judicial review of such a decision, it would stick with you...

That's one point...

The other is my recommendation that if one wants a large ceremony for family and friends that does not constitute a legally binding wedding, that it be done after entry to the US and the legal marriage has been completed...

This is due to the presumption in the INA that the alien must prove their eligibility to enter the US under the terms of the status that they wish to enter to the satisfaction of the CBP officer. If there is evidence that a wedding ceremony has taken place, non-legally binding or not, then the presumption in the eyes of the CBP officer will have changed from the point of view that the alien that is before them was legally free to marry to the alien is not legally free to marry. The burden of proof is now on the alien to overcome that presumption by presenting evidence that one is actually legally free to marry at that point in time... and if it comes up at the AOS interview with the USCIS, you would also have to present evidence that would prove that you were legally free to marry at the time that you were admitted to the US on the K1.

As mentioned previously.. it is easy to prove that one was married at a particular point in time through a marriage certificate... to prove that one was not married at a certain point in time and therefore, legally free to marry in the US at the time of admission to the US is near impossible at the POE and extremely difficult after the fact if it happens to come up at an AOS interview...

All I'm trying to do is to save people a lot of heartache and problems that they themselves could avoid...

What are peoples priorities.. is it to have the big wedding of your dreams before you enter the US with friends and family with the real risk that it could all blow up in your face ruslting in a lot of anxiety, pain and lots of money down the drain hiring exprensive attorneys to sort it all out, or is it to be together in the US and having a secure foundation to build their future together by having a relatively smooth immigration process...

You can still have the big wedding ceremony of your dreams with the K1, but if you want a smooth immigration process, all I'm saying is that it should be done after you have the legal ceremony in the US...

If it is your priority to have the big wedding in your home country before your friends and family and you want the smooth process, you should not do the K1 and go for the K3 or CR-1. But of course, we all know that it takes longer...

What are your priorities... niether I or anyone else can answer that for anyone else... All I and others are trying to do is show that some choices that may seem on paper very innocent could have severe consequences in practice and allow people to have the information required to make an informed decision...

So, I hope this thread has given people the tools they need to make their informed choice and set thier own priorities...

Edited October 19, 2006 by zyggy

[rob&ana 0]

So, I hope this thread has given people the tools they need to make their informed choice and set thier own priorities

I certainly hope so too.

People make their choices, they set their journeys. This is not a process that people should come into blindly, it just blows my mind sometimes the questions that are asked, questions that people should've asked even before starting any K1, K3 or which ever they decided to go thru.

It is not our position to tell people here in set ways, NO dont do this, or YES, go and do that. I think people should understand that which ever information that is given in an internet forum has to be double and triple checked. Simply, because we're all coming from different countries, or even if we're coming from the same country the situations might be different and our journeys will be different.

This is a process with many gray areas, but whomever decides to go gray, should be VERY informed of the consequences.

This was a good discussion, I hope it makes people think more before acting.

Good day to all...

Ana

[Caladan 19]

Tell me, how do you slip up at the POE and AOS interview and mention that you had a non-binding celebration in your home country? Most people in this process have already been duly warned about what to say and what not to say. That includes visiting your fiance or spouse in America while the visa is processing!

What exactly happens at the POE? In my experience, nothing happened. No questions were asked.

I just don't understand how anything about a non-legal ceremony could come up unless you are directly asked. In that case, you can provide the evidence attesting to the fact that the ceremony was not legal. Other than that, I don't see what the big problem is.

There's always a possibility of denial in this process. Arguably having a non-binding ceremony does not greatly increase a chance of denial given the particulars of each individual case.

As long as people are aware of their options, then I don't see what the big fuss is about.

There's been a couple cases cited on this thread where people had problems at the PoE or AoS because slips happen. If no slips happen, no slips happen. But it's not the sort of thing to blithely recommend as no big deal.

[am1996 0]

However, if it is asked and you do not divulge it, then in my opinion a CBP officer could see that as a material misrepresentation... and right or wrong, since there's no judicial review of such a decision, it would stick with you...

Zyggy, such an interpretation by a CBP officer would be absolutely and undoubtedly incorrect and illegal. See 9 FAM 40.63 N6.3-5 (examples in (a)1 and 2). Once again, there is an enormous legal and practical difference between "misrepresentations" and "material misrepresentations" (I've already explained the differences between the two and posted FAM references to support it).

Just to restate, a "misrepresentation" is a statement or a filing that is contrary to the facts. The law is QUITE CLEAR in that an alien does not and cannot be subject to any adverse action simply because he/she has made a misrepresentation (hence, my "Bachelor" misrepresentation example above).

Adverse actions are and can only be taken with respect to "MATERIAL misrepresentations." A misrepresentation is only "material" if, in this context, the true facts would have made the alien excludable from this country or otherwise ineligible for the type of visa that he/she is relying upon to enter the country. A participation in a non legally binding ceremonial wedding does not make the alien ineligible for the K1 visa, which means that the alien's decision to withhold information about such wedding is NOT material. Once again, this is analogous to an alien misrepresenting the fact that he's previously watched the "Bachelor" -- the statute does NOT make the "Bachelor" watchers or the non-legally binding ceremony participants ineligible for K1 admission. Hence, any misrepresentations made in connection therewith are NOT material.

A practical reality is that it is always possible for the CBP or USCIS to be confused about a certain matter and for that confusion to cost you dearly. Just like some other posters have correctly pointed out, however, this confusion may or may not be rooted in reality. In other words, even if you have never engaged in any type of a non legally binding ceremony, it is always possible that you'll inadvertently refer to your fiance as your "wife," which will invite CBP's scrutiny. Consequently, regardless of the ceremony type you have or have not participated in, it is always prudent to be aware of the existing law and to answer all questions legally and in a way that minimizes any confusion.

This is due to the presumption in the INA that the alien must prove their eligibility to enter the US under the terms of the status that they wish to enter to the satisfaction of the CBP officer. If there is evidence that a wedding ceremony has taken place, non-legally binding or not, then the presumption in the eyes of the CBP officer will have changed from the point of view that the alien that is before them was legally free to marry to the alien is not legally free to marry. The burden of proof is now on the alien to overcome that presumption by presenting evidence that one is actually legally free to marry at that point in time... and if it comes up at the AOS interview with the USCIS, you would also have to present evidence that would prove that you were legally free to marry at the time that you were admitted to the US on the K1.

As mentioned previously.. it is easy to prove that one was married at a particular point in time through a marriage certificate... to prove that one was not married at a certain point in time and therefore, legally free to marry in the US at the time of admission to the US is near impossible at the POE and extremely difficult after the fact if it happens to come up at an AOS interview...

This is absolutely correct and I've made this point before as well. If the CBP somehow learns about the non binding ceremony and you are unable to prove that the ceremony was not legally binding, you will be denied entry NOT because you've committed a material misrepresentation (you haven't) but because you have failed to meet your burden of proof related to K1 entry eligibility. Hence, you should absolutely be prepared to prove that such a ceremony was not legally binding.

All I'm trying to do is to save people a lot of heartache and problems that they themselves could avoid...

What are peoples priorities.. is it to have the big wedding of your dreams before you enter the US with friends and family with the real risk that it could all blow up in your face ruslting in a lot of anxiety, pain and lots of money down the drain hiring exprensive attorneys to sort it all out, or is it to be together in the US and having a secure foundation to build their future together by having a relatively smooth immigration process...

You can still have the big wedding ceremony of your dreams with the K1, but if you want a smooth immigration process, all I'm saying is that it should be done after you have the legal ceremony in the US...

If it is your priority to have the big wedding in your home country before your friends and family and you want the smooth process, you should not do the K1 and go for the K3 or CR-1. But of course, we all know that it takes longer...

What are your priorities... niether I or anyone else can answer that for anyone else... All I and others are trying to do is show that some choices that may seem on paper very innocent could have severe consequences in practice and allow people to have the information required to make an informed decision...

So, I hope this thread has given people the tools they need to make their informed choice and set thier own priorities...

I wholeheartedly agree with this. As long as people have researched and understood the process and the legal and practical risks associated with their decisions, then it's all up to their particular risk assessment and risk tolerance.

[Kez/JWolf 6]

am1996 I find your posts interesting and they do give an other insite to immigration.... my overall feeling about your arguments that you give is that they would be well paced in a court room.... but as most of us only ever have contact with CBP and USCIS staff who being human will look at things in there own way... and the chances are we will never have to argue these points in a court of law.... the legal arguments you give will not do most of us any good... we are in there hands... but if I ever need someone to come and argue legal points I will sure give you a call...

Kezzie

[Saddle Bronc 124]

am1996 I find your posts interesting and they do give an other insite to immigration.... my overall feeling about your arguments that you give is that they would be well paced in a court room.... but as most of us only ever have contact with CBP and USCIS staff who being human will look at things in there own way

Some would say they are more caricatures of humans--as they lack heart/compassion.

... and the chances are we will never have to argue these points in a court of law.... the legal arguments you give will not do most of us any good... we are in there hands... but if I ever need someone to come and argue legal points I will sure give you a call...

Kezzie

True--try appealing a CBP decision (especially entry-denial--which you would have to come and argue in a US court; rather hard if you have to risk a SECOND ENTRY DENIAL to do so)

[Yodrak 7]

zauerblume,

Several examples have been provided in this thread.

Yodrak

Tell me, how do you slip up at the POE and AOS interview and mention that you had a non-binding celebration in your home country? .....

[Carol&Marc 0]

I find the proposition that people are advising against non-legal wedding ceremonies before the K-1 because they're jealous to be pretty ridiculous. Because, you know, this place is just full of chock-full people telling people bad advice so their NOA2 takes longer, 'cause they're jealous.

Advising people not to have a ceremony because of envy,jeolousy is so ridiculous! I cant beleive that was even brought into the mix!

Having a non-binding wedding ceremony could increase the chances that a) someone slips up at the PoE or adjustment of status interviews or B) the couple gets accidentally married because they didn't check the laws for their area. Yes, it could probably all be sorted out in the end if something happens, after thousands of dollars of legal fees, and more likely than not, there will be no problem at all. But it's not just as easy as 'do whatever you want because everyone else is jealous of your wedding party'; make sure you check up on your locale's laws.

I agree totally! Like Yodrak said, If your going to do it BE VERY CAREFUL!

I guess I just don't understand....why do some of y'all want to do this anyway. I mean, the K1 is a fiancé(e) visa, if you want to get married first, then do so and file the K3. Why in god's name would anyone want to take a chance of being denied??? This journey is stressful enough without having to bring this component into it.

*sigh* not being judgmental...just wondering is all.

My sentiments exactly,go through all this and then "ROLL THE DICE" at the finish line! I just don't get it!

Edited October 19, 2006 by Carol&Marc