legally married?

[meauxna 15]

So basically...

If I were to get a ceremony, I should first investigate if a religious ceremony is legally binding in MY country of origin. Then make hard copies of that documentation and bring it with me to the POE, and ONLY in the case of being asked at POE, show this as proof that I am not legally married, so the CBP lets me enter the US.

right?

You are asking for a legal advice, which we are not in the position to give you and cannot and should not give you because there could be other issues involved in your particular situation. We can only tell you what we would do and explain why we would do it (or not do it). Instead of simply following another person's approach, please be sure to independently examine the rationale behind it, confirm its accuracy and then make your own decision.

Excellent reply; much better than what I was going to say.

Altho, I wouldn't carry that kind of information on me....

It's quite interesting--this issue has just come up on another group, and a lawyer is participating in the thread:

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=402661

K1 visa ,Russian wedding

I wounder If now with the k1 visa in her passport If I could just go over there marry her there and then come together back to US? I guess that's a dream but it would be nice if some how it could be.With out having to give up our k1 and have to file k3 visa and wait and wait again!!!Any ideas ?

----

NO! Don't do that. Once you marry in Russia, you are no longer free to marry in the United States!

Have a big party in Russia if you want.

----

Thanks I was reading about it lst night.Can't do it.But A wedding is a wedding man screw the paper work.I want to do it over there it won't mean any thing on paper but in our hearts we will know were we first said I do!!! Then do some bs thing here in the states just to get the paper work done!!I still have to run this idea by the little lady.

---

I was thinking about that also. However, there is a question to which I do NOT know the answer. A marriage is valid if valid under the law of the "place of celebration." So you need to find out if a marriage ceremony without anything more is sufficient to be a LEGAL marriage in Russia. There are places where a Church ceremony WILL be a marriage even if no civil registration is ever done. So caution is advised.

---

Moderator chimes in:

Let me tell you a little story. About 5 or 6 years ago, a gentleman who was a member of this forum married his lovely foreign bride in a church ceremony in Budapest. It was not legally binding marriage as there was no license and was just for the sake of her family and friends, etc. The actual ceremony was here in Boston.

At the AOS ceremony, wifey mentioned about the blessing ceremony in Budapest. Their AOS was on hold for over 4 years until it was decided by the USCIS that the first ceremony was not a binding legal ceremony. Cost them a great deal of money and time and anguish.

Do you want to be the first one to follow in their footsteps? If not, get married here in the US. While here after the ceremony file for her AOS and for advance parole and mommy and daddy in Russia can plan the big blessing ceremony in the church for family and friends and the reception afterward.

That is ONE story that has been posted to the group over the years.

There have also been many who successfully had their ceremony and never had a problem.

Point is, none of us can or should be issuing a blanket statement in either direction, except to say that the most conservative approach (ie, safest) is to not have the extra ceremony.

Since laws and customs vary so much around the world, it is up to the couple to do their OWN due dilligence, weigh the risks and make their own choice.

NONE of us should be invested in what choice the couple comes to.

[Yodrak 7]

meauxna,

Yes, I agree completely. Marriage laws can and do vary from country to country, and an action - such as a 'wedding' ceremony - that does not constitute a state-recognized marriage in one country may create a state-recognized marriage in another country. Or perhaps a small change in a 'wedding' ceremony can make a difference as to whether or not a state-recognized marriage is created in a particular country.

Yodrak

The essential issue is to not allow extraneous information to get into the hands of people who quite reasonably will not understand the information properly and will take it to be something that it is not. If one is going to do this kind of thing, be careful. Be very careful.

The take-away I get from the conversation, and what I'd want others to 'get' is that IF someone wants to do this, they MUST be responsible and check ALL the details for their particular country.

It is absolutely insufficient to say, 'oh yeah, hey we did this and it worked' because I can see a radical difference in a Thai ceremony and a Colombian ceremony. It is not responsible posting, IMO, to not make the person asking aware of the differences, and to make sure that it's also communicated to the foreign fiance/e.

I think this is a case where people need to really understand what they are doing. A lot of times, they do not.

[rob&ana 0]

Ok I was trying to be silly here...

I am already in the US and I have my GC in hand. I was just trying to put what am1996 said in common wording.

I believe the point is made, you have to verify in your country of origin, and then decide to go on or not with it. And then, be really aware of not mentioning it at POE or during your AOS interview.

But of course, the point is also, that it is the choice of the couple and no one here should follow ANY advice given on the forums until it has been thouroughly investigated by the interested part.

I agree, that the danger of these discussions is that people think that since other people have been on VJ for ever, they hold the entire knowledge and follow blindly any advice given without making sure first on their own what are their options.

[Yodrak 7]

Bill,

I'm not so sure that any check can be made with the US consulate in Bangkok. One fills out an affidavit, which the consulate provides, and the consular officer notarizes the affiant's signature. That's the extent of the consulate's involvement. No record is made of having notarized the document that I know of. I know for sure that the consulate does not make and keep a copy of the affidavit. They do not give any "clearance". They do nothing to verify the information that the affiant provides in the affidavit. Their sole function is to notarize the affiant's signature.

I don't know what record or documentation Thai ministry of Foreign Affairs might keep when they 'legalize' the notarized and translated affidavit.

Yodrak

Randy,

--snip for brevity---

See my post earlier in this thread in which I mentioned the experience of a petitioner who had a wedding ceremony in Thailand and included the photos with his I-129f petition for fiancee as evidence of the sincerety of the relationship. He was sent an RFE requesting proof that he was not married. Do you know how many amphurs there are in Thailand from which one would need to obtain a statement that no marriage had been registered in that amphur? (Not as many as there are counties in the 50 states of the USA, fortunately.)

--snip--

If one is going to do this kind of thing, be careful. Be very careful.

Yodrak

This should not have been a difficult problem to overcome, since for a farang (foreigner) to marry a Thai, they must get clearance from their embassy. (as well as confirmed citizenship of that country, legal freedom to marry. Once those foreign affidavits are obtained, they must be translated into Thai and legalized pursuant to Thai law). It should not have been too hard for them to check with the US Embassy and verify that no clearance had been given.

....

Bill

[SirLancelot 1]

I did it and you should too = I'm willing to risk your future with my advice.

I didnt do it = You shouldnt do it because I say so.

This is what is bothering me! Just because you didnt (and I didnt either!) does not mean that others cannot!! They just have to be aware of the risks, and be careful when going thru POE or AOS.

Rob&Ana, I think it's actually more insidious than that. It's not "I didn't do it so you shouldn't either", it's more like "Because I didn't get to do it--and so now I'm so disgruntled and jealous of others who may do it--I will preach to high heavens admonishing others not to do it either because I never got to do it." That's what it really reads to me. Jealousy of the the worst kind.

Clearly they have no leg to stand on--and I'm extremely surprised Yodrak is siding with that party on this debate--but they will persist because they're just bitter they didn't do it that way or are too chicken to try this route themselves.

As long as the wedding ceremony does NOT confer legal marriage status in that country of origin, it is clearly legal to enter the USA on a K-1 visa. No POE border agent is going to ask if there was a wedding ceremony performed which did NOT confer legal marriage status back in the home country.

[meauxna 15]

Y, I'm glad you brought that back to the top.

*What* 'clearance from the foreign embassy?

If you mean the 'free to marry' affidavit, or 'certificate of single status', they are required in many European countries for a marriage license as well. The US Gov't doesn't care. All it was in my case was a pre-typed statement saying that *I* swear I'm not married. the ConOrff notarized my signature.

I wouldn't call that 'them clearing me' in any way.

Bill,

I'm not so sure that any check can be made with the US consulate in Bangkok. One fills out an affidavit, which the consulate provides, and the consular officer notarizes the affiant's signature. That's the extent of the consulate's involvement. No record is made of having notarized the document that I know of. I know for sure that the consulate does not make and keep a copy of the affidavit. They do not give any "clearance". They do nothing to verify the information that the affiant provides in the affidavit. Their sole function is to notarize the affiant's signature.

I don't know what record or documentation Thai ministry of Foreign Affairs might keep when they 'legalize' the notarized and translated affidavit.

Yodrak

Randy,

--snip for brevity---

See my post earlier in this thread in which I mentioned the experience of a petitioner who had a wedding ceremony in Thailand and included the photos with his I-129f petition for fiancee as evidence of the sincerety of the relationship. He was sent an RFE requesting proof that he was not married. Do you know how many amphurs there are in Thailand from which one would need to obtain a statement that no marriage had been registered in that amphur? (Not as many as there are counties in the 50 states of the USA, fortunately.)

--snip--

If one is going to do this kind of thing, be careful. Be very careful.

Yodrak

This should not have been a difficult problem to overcome, since for a farang (foreigner) to marry a Thai, they must get clearance from their embassy. (as well as confirmed citizenship of that country, legal freedom to marry. Once those foreign affidavits are obtained, they must be translated into Thai and legalized pursuant to Thai law). It should not have been too hard for them to check with the US Embassy and verify that no clearance had been given.

....

Bill

I did it and you should too = I'm willing to risk your future with my advice.

I didnt do it = You shouldnt do it because I say so.

This is what is bothering me! Just because you didnt (and I didnt either!) does not mean that others cannot!! They just have to be aware of the risks, and be careful when going thru POE or AOS.

Rob&Ana, I think it's actually more insidious than that. It's not "I didn't do it so you shouldn't either", it's more like "Because I didn't get to do it--and so now I'm so disgruntled and jealous of others who may do it--I will preach to high heavens admonishing others not to do it either because I never got to do it." That's what it really reads to me. Jealousy of the the worst kind.

Clearly they have no leg to stand on--and I'm extremely surprised Yodrak is siding with that party on this debate--but they will persist because they're just bitter they didn't do it that way or are too chicken to try this route themselves.

As long as the wedding ceremony does NOT confer legal marriage status in that country of origin, it is clearly legal to enter the USA on a K-1 visa. No POE border agent is going to ask if there was a wedding ceremony performed which did NOT confer legal marriage status back in the home country.

Oh BS on that.

I post what I do because I take the responsibility of what I write fairly seriously.

In fact, oh never mind.

[frndly1 1]

CAM there have been people that have done just want you want to do and have been denied access to the united states. The problem is that people will slip up and say my huband or my wife (whether its true or not). Bingo you lied and denied access to the United States.

I would not chance it.

First of all thanks to all who have taken the time to weigh in on this matter. & yes Juni you are correct...round trip ticket from USA to Brazil for me, & a one-way ticket from Brazil to USA for my fiance. versus a one way ticket from Brazil to USA for my fiance & then 2 round trip tickets to Brazil & back for the wedding there...once Uncle Sam says she can leave the US. My father asked an immigration attorney here in the USA about my dilema & he says now would be the worst possible time to try this since post 9-11 & all. He says what we would be doing could be viewed as fraud since we would be married (again this would NOT be a civil marriage, just a religious one) and she would be coming in on the fiance visa. Ofcourse for them to deny her entry because of this would be rather absurd since we will be getting LEGALLY married here in the US. I think with the state department's definiton of a spouse being one who is LEGALLY married to another they shouldn't give us any problems...BUT I wouldn't be surprised at all if they did. I'm gonna try to talk to someone at the embassy or someone in USCIS (immigration officer)who can give me a definate answer, & try to get that in writing. I bet the immigration lawyer is right, but as someone who deals with attorneys on a regular basis, I can assure you they are not always up to date on everything, & as they themselves will tell you a lot of law is interpretive. I just hate this problem because we've already sent out invitations, bought the wedding dress, and done alot of other wedding preparations. Once I've spoken with someone official I'll be sure to tell everyone what they said. Maybe I can help someone from getting in the same predicament I'm in.

[Randy 0]

I did it and you should too = I'm willing to risk your future with my advice.

I didnt do it = You shouldnt do it because I say so.

This is what is bothering me! Just because you didnt (and I didnt either!) does not mean that others cannot!! They just have to be aware of the risks, and be careful when going thru POE or AOS.

Rob&Ana, I think it's actually more insidious than that. It's not "I didn't do it so you shouldn't either", it's more like "Because I didn't get to do it--and so now I'm so disgruntled and jealous of others who may do it--I will preach to high heavens admonishing others not to do it either because I never got to do it." That's what it really reads to me. Jealousy of the the worst kind.

Clearly they have no leg to stand on--and I'm extremely surprised Yodrak is siding with that party on this debate--but they will persist because they're just bitter they didn't do it that way or are too chicken to try this route themselves.

As long as the wedding ceremony does NOT confer legal marriage status in that country of origin, it is clearly legal to enter the USA on a K-1 visa. No POE border agent is going to ask if there was a wedding ceremony performed which did NOT confer legal marriage status back in the home country.

[Yodrak 7]

SirLancelot,

Yodrak is not siding with any party in this debate. I'm presenting my own perspective, which is that it's quite possible for the CIS or CPB to come to the conclusion - perhaps correctly or perhaps incorrectly - that a wedding ceremony has created a marriage, and that if they do come to this conclusion it can take some time and effort to prove them wrong. Adding, in response to meauxna's observation, if in fact they are wrong.

Yodrak

....

Rob&Ana, I think it's actually more insidious than that. It's not "I didn't do it so you shouldn't either", it's more like "Because I didn't get to do it--and so now I'm so disgruntled and jealous of others who may do it--I will preach to high heavens admonishing others not to do it either because I never got to do it." That's what it really reads to me. Jealousy of the the worst kind.

Clearly they have no leg to stand on--and I'm extremely surprised Yodrak is siding with that party on this debate--but they will persist because they're just bitter they didn't do it that way or are too chicken to try this route themselves.

As long as the wedding ceremony does NOT confer legal marriage status in that country of origin, it is clearly legal to enter the USA on a K-1 visa. No POE border agent is going to ask if there was a wedding ceremony performed which did NOT confer legal marriage status back in the home country.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

I agree with the reference to the Bachelor... the fact of one watching "The Bachelor" would make no difference in the mind of a CBP officer on the admissibiility of an alien.. therefore not divilging a this fact which would not be material in the officer's determination would not constitute a "material misrepresentation" and therefore would not be subject to a ban..

However, it is my opinion, that not revealing the presence of a wedding ceremony, legally binding or not, would make a difference in the CBP officer making a determination on the admissibility of the alien. Therefore, not revealing this fact would be a "material misrepresentation".

The relevant question is not whether a certain answer would make a difference in the mind of a particular CBP officer. The relevant question is whether the answer makes a LEGAL difference -- both the "Bachelor" and a non-legally binding ceremony do NOT give rise to K-1 ineligibility (such ineligibility is specifically defined in the K-1 statute which, for the purposes of this discussion, only makes "legally married" aliens ineligible for admission). As long as the alien otherwise meets all other K-1 eligibility criteria, he/she is REQUIRED to be admitted.

There are several countries where a wedding ceremony is in fact legally binding, no matter if it was registered with the government or not... the CBP is not responsible for knowing the laws regarding a legal marriage acts of the hundreds of countries all over the world.... if there is a fact available that could impact an officer's decision in the determination of the admissibility of an alien and that fact is not given.. then it is a "material misrepresentation".

Once again, that's not the law. If the marriage ceremony is not in fact legally binding in the country in question, then the alien's decision not to disclose such ceremony cannot possibly constitute a "material misrepresentation" because it cannot, as a legal matter, make that person ineligible for admission. The law on this is well settled, is crystal clear and does not allow for varying interpretations. Please take a look at the FAM citations I provided above.

Now, if the CBP for some reason finds out about the ceremony (once again, the alien's decision not to disclose this information cannot be deemed a "material representation" thereof), they can and should question the alien about it. The burden of proof would then be on the alien to establish by, I believe, clear and convincing evidence that the ceremony was not, in fact, legally binding. If the alien has no documentation to support that fact then the CBP is within its legal right not to admit the alien because he/she has failed to meet its burden of proof. Once again, this situation would only arise if the CBP somehow finds out about the ceremony and the alien then fails to establish the non-binding nature thereof.

Whether the law as it is written supports the alien's compliance with the K-1 visa terms or not, if something were to go awry at the POE, there's a whole heck of a lot of delay and trouble involved. Now, in this case, if the marriage is indeed not legally binding, yet somehow the CBP agent becomes aware of it at the POE, what would an alien do to prove it, and more importantly, should the CBP decide to refuse entry, and the alien is back on the next plane out, what immigration court will the alien stand in in order to prove that the law was not followed?

[SirLancelot 1]

Whether the law as it is written supports the alien's compliance with the K-1 visa terms or not, if something were to go awry at the POE, there's a whole heck of a lot of delay and trouble involved. Now, in this case, if the marriage is indeed not legally binding, yet somehow the CBP agent becomes aware of it at the POE, what would an alien do to prove it, and more importantly, should the CBP decide to refuse entry, and the alien is back on the next plane out, what immigration court will the alien stand in in order to prove that the law was not followed?

This post is not directly targeted at diadromous mermaid so don't get all bent out of shape please DM. This is directed towards all those who keep on insisting on this point.

If we were to accept this kind of argument, then I would have to ask this: to all those of you who have never had or will never have a wedding ceremony outside of the US, what if your beneficiary encounters a POE agent who assumes anyway that you had a ceremony? What then? How is your SO going to prove you never married?

The point you guys and gals are trying to make is completely pointless. For all those who have NOT had or will not have any wedding ceremony outside of the US, you are trapped in the same stupid POE system as the rest who may have a ceremony outside of the US. There is NO way that you can prove to the POE any better than someone who has had a wedding ceremony which did NOT accord legal marriage status to them. We're all in the exact same boat!

[camifree 2]

Puh-lease.... some ppl need a life around here.... only reading the first page I could get to that conclusion.

If the religious ceremony in Brazil is not considered a legal process, go ahead. If you prefer to ask the authorities before doing it, even better. Exchanging vows and getting blessed can't be considered as a crime, but since so many people are SO ignorant and fundamentalist about their own ideas, then they might find it as an "incovenient" issue. If you decide to do it, just make sure to keep your mouth shut, your rings kept away and your system clean from the alcohol beverages sold in the plane (so you don't get too "eloquent"). About the looks you will be giving to each other.... for Goodness sake... married or not... after such a process.... who wouldn't be looking at each other in that way???? I think some ppl around here might have wanted to do what the OP wants to do but didn't, and now (as we say in Spanish) they are breathing through the wound.

For the OP: I hope you make the right decision, and that it lets you sleep at night, whatever it is. Best of luck and congratulations!!

Edited October 19, 2006 by cami&josh

[Anyta Holland 1]

So, changing the perspective, if they decide to have a 'blessing' in the church, which might be performed similar to a wedding ceremony, will that be seen as illegal as well in the POE or AOS interview?

I simply don't understand why people feel so strongly about this, and it makes me think that SirLancelot is absolutely right in saying: 'because I didn't get to do it, you shouldn't do it'... Which is.... really sad!

Puh-lease.... some ppl need a life around here.... only reading the first page I could get to that conclusion.

If the religious ceremony in Brazil is not considered a legal process, go ahead. If you prefer to ask the authorities before doing it, even better. Exchanging vows and getting blessed can't be considered as a crime, but since so many people are SO ignorant and fundamentalist about their own ideas, then they might find it as an "incovenient" issue. If you decide to do it, just make sure to keep your mouth shut, your rings kept away and your system clean from the alcohol beverages sold in the plane (so you don't get too "eloquent"). About the looks you will be giving to each other.... for Goodness sake... married or not... after such a process.... who wouldn't be looking at each other in that way???? I think some ppl around here might have wanted to do what the OP wants to do but didn't, and now (as we say in Spanish) they are breathing through the wound.

For the OP: I hope you make the right decision, and that it lets you sleep at night, whatever it is. Best of luck and congratulations!!

[andrewwynn 0]

as the saying goes.. better safe than sorry is a reasonable approach to take, but i don't see anything wrong at all.. it would actually not be difficult to prove you are still eligible for a K1 visa if you don't have a legal marriage. It's an obvious loophole and the important thing is to get clear in your own mind that you aren't married to avoid stupid mistakes.. if 'a wedding' doesn't make you married.. than you had better not call yourself husband and wife afterwards.. you are still engaged, etc.

It's a very interesting point just made above.. ALL people who are not legally married have EXACTLY the same proof.. *nothing*. There is no way to prove you never went before a priest with two witnesses and said marriage vows.. the USA has to go by the law.. which is.. not official.. not married... still 100% eligible.

It would behoove the interested parties to NOT refer to their church 'wedding' as a 'wedding' because that's a key-word that will bring up red-flags.. What to exactly call it, that's tricky, and another writer mentioned the important distinction of playing by man's rules or God's rules..

Being in exactly the position of being able to decide to do exactly the same thing, but having found 'a better way'.. i actually lean now much more strongly toward the 'keep it simple' rule of not playing games.. if you want to get somebody to the usa quicker (only conceivable reason for doing the 'double wedding' thing).. then just have a reception in the foreign country and use a K1 visa or use DCF if you can and just plain get married for real in the foreign country. The other straightforward method is to use I-130 and take the 6-9 months, bite the bullet and do it straight-forward.

In my case, my fiancée was insistent on having a 'big church wedding' (mostly parental influence) in Indonesia, so she could have the pomp n circumstance .. I would not have had any problem with doing the K1 visa after a big ceremony that was not official (exactly like the concept of this thread).. because it just plain simple is 100% legal to do it that way. In Indonesia (and apparently Brazil).. if you don't register with the state it is nothing more than practice, it's not official, it's not legal and it's not a marriage.

Now could some butt-munch find some way to red-tape-you to death.. sure.. but if you are careful in how you realize the perception in your own head and call it like it is (that you are NOT MARRIED) and never refer to yourselves as husband and wife, there really should not be a single issue with going the pre-wedding route.

-awr

[meauxna 15]

apropos of nothing...

I think it's interesting to watch these discussions sometimes. I'm reminded of some frothing-at-the-mouth threads on the topic of a VWP/marriage/AOS (planned or not) that appeared in the same week as the 'can I smuggle in dirt?' and elsewhere 'I'm bringing seeds from the homeland because I want them really really bad'.

Like I say, interesting to see which rules people feel strongly about honoring.