legally married?

[TucsonBill 0]

Randy,

--snip for brevity---

See my post earlier in this thread in which I mentioned the experience of a petitioner who had a wedding ceremony in Thailand and included the photos with his I-129f petition for fiancee as evidence of the sincerety of the relationship. He was sent an RFE requesting proof that he was not married. Do you know how many amphurs there are in Thailand from which one would need to obtain a statement that no marriage had been registered in that amphur? (Not as many as there are counties in the 50 states of the USA, fortunately.)

--snip--

If one is going to do this kind of thing, be careful. Be very careful.

Yodrak

This should not have been a difficult problem to overcome, since for a farang (foreigner) to marry a Thai, they must get clearance from their embassy. (as well as confirmed citizenship of that country, legal freedom to marry. Once those foreign affidavits are obtained, they must be translated into Thai and legalized pursuant to Thai law). It should not have been too hard for them to check with the US Embassy and verify that no clearance had been given.

That said, I definatly agree that there are alot of stupid people in the world, and especially at the POE you dont want to create any misunderstandings.

I personally just don't want to 'hide' anything, I am trying to be as completely up front and honest as I can be about this whole process.

Bill

Edited October 18, 2006 by TucsonBill

[Carol&Marc 0]

I did it and you should too = I'm willing to risk your future with my advice.

I didnt do it = You shouldnt do it because I say so.

This is what is bothering me! Just because you didnt (and I didnt either!) does not mean that others cannot!! They just have to be aware of the risks, and be careful when going thru POE or AOS.

If its OKAY!......................................................Then why should They "" BE CAREFUL ""

[zyggy 9]

Right, I tried reading the whole thread but found so much nonsense that decided to go straight to posting...

Can I just ask the OP:

1. Will you be signing anything when having the ceremony in the church?

2. Are you planning to let the whole DHS/USCIS/Embassies and Consulates know about what you're planning to do?

If you are not signing anything, I can't see how this would be illegal as this is just a simbolic thing to do, with no legal ties... And if it lacks legal ties, then how can this be illegal or a marriage as such?? You will have no paperwork for what I understand, there'll be no signing and nothing but pictures to remind you of that day.

Second, why would you let the POE officer or anyone know about this? I am assuming this is something personal, so I don't see why they should know or oppose to it. Plus, someone on a post before this one copied something about sombolic ceremonies, so what is the big deal?

Come on people, think about it, and make a bit of sense... This is just SIMBOLIC and as such it DOESN'T HAVE LEGAL TIES, which means that they won't be MARRIED in reality, so what is the problem if they want to celebrate in Brazil?

On the other hand, I am not sure you know about this, but a one way trip is sometimes more expensive than reound trips, so you would be spending the same amount of money... Unless you plan to go to Brazil to accompany wour fiance back to the USA, which is not necessary really...

Maybe if you read the thread in its entirety, you would get an understanding on why that may not be a good idea and the reasons why that is so... you may come away with a greater understanding of how the process at the POE works and be able to give educated responses should such a situation be asked again...

FYI I read more than half of the thread and is all absolute nonsense!

Also, I have already done the POE process, and they ask absolutely nothing about your status or your personal life, or what you did just before you came to America or what you're planning to do, so don't come and be so patronizing with me...

I am sorry if I am coming across quite rude, but I don't see what the whole fuzz is about!

It was not my intent to be patronizing... this discussion has been far from nonsense.. it has been a very good discussion on the risks of having a prior "non-legal wedding ceremony" in regards to your admission into the US on a K-1 visa and what may happen if the existance of that ceremony came out at the POE...

To come in and chime in without reading the discussion is not helping the OP and may actually hinder what is being discussed... I have been seeing this more and more lately... and I for one find it troubling. We as a whole must become a more educated community or we could be doing others a great disservice...

[am1996 0]

My position stands....

Zyggy, to explain all this without any legal jargon, if I am entering the country as a K-1 in full compliance with all its requirements and a CBP officer asks me if I've ever committed the ultimate sin of watching the "Bachelor," as a matter of law my answer to that question makes no difference. If I lie about having watched it, it may be a "misrepresentatin" but is certainly not a "material misrepresentation" since I otherwise meet all the K-1 eligibility criteria. The officer is, therefore, REQUIRED to admit me.

If I tell the truth and admit that I've seen the Bachelor, then, no matter how the particular officer feels about this issue, he is still REQUIRED to admit me because I am otherwise in full compliance with the K-1 statute.

If an officer either does not know the law or decides to disregard it, however, as a practical matter he can still deny me entry, even though the law is completely on my side.

Now, if instead of the "Bachelor" you substitute the words "religious, non-legally binding ceremony" you will see what I am saying

[rob&ana 0]

I did it and you should too = I'm willing to risk your future with my advice.

I didnt do it = You shouldnt do it because I say so.

This is what is bothering me! Just because you didnt (and I didnt either!) does not mean that others cannot!! They just have to be aware of the risks, and be careful when going thru POE or AOS.

If its OKAY!......................................................Then why should They "" BE CAREFUL ""

Because, as Yodrak and other people here have mentioned, the CBP at POE or AOS might not understand the situation and it might create problems for the immigrant.

[sophyie 0]

If its OKAY!......................................................Then why should They "" BE CAREFUL ""

If I understand correctly, because the officer at the POE has the power to send you back home on the next plane if he suspects fraud. Or that your ceremony MIGHT have been a legal one.

And because it is way harder to prove that you're NOT legally married than THAT you are legally married.

[Carol&Marc 0]

I did it and you should too = I'm willing to risk your future with my advice.

I didnt do it = You shouldnt do it because I say so.

This is what is bothering me! Just because you didnt (and I didnt either!) does not mean that others cannot!! They just have to be aware of the risks, and be careful when going thru POE or AOS.

If its OKAY!......................................................Then why should They "" BE CAREFUL ""

Because, as Yodrak and other people here have mentioned, the CBP at POE or AOS might not understand the situation and it might create problems for the immigrant.

Exactly,When in doubt dont do it! thats my point!

[zyggy 9]

My position stands....

Zyggy, to explain all this without any legal jargon, if I am entering the country as a K-1 in full compliance with all its requirements and a CBP officer asks me if I've ever committed the ultimate sin of watching the "Bachelor," as a matter of law my answer to that question makes no difference. If I lie about having watched it, it may be a "misrepresentatin" but is certainly not a "material misrepresentation" since I otherwise meet all the K-1 eligibility criteria. The officer is, therefore, REQUIRED to admit me.

If I tell the truth and admit that I've seen the Bachelor, then, no matter how the particular officer feels about this issue, he is still REQUIRED to admit me because I am otherwise in full compliance with the K-1 statute.

If an officer either does not know the law or decides to disregard it, however, as a practical matter he can still deny me entry, even though the law is completely on my side.

Now, if instead of the "Bachelor" you substitute the words "religious, non-legally binding ceremony" you will see what I am saying

I agree with the reference to the Bachelor... the fact of one watching "The Bachelor" would make no difference in the mind of a CBP officer on the admissibiility of an alien.. therefore not divilging a this fact which would not be material in the officer's determination would not constitute a "material misrepresentation" and therefore would not be subject to a ban..

However, it is my opinion, that not revealing the presence of a wedding ceremony, legally binding or not, would make a difference in the CBP officer making a determination on the admissibility of the alien. Therefore, not revealing this fact would be a "material misrepresentation".

There are several countries where a wedding ceremony is in fact legally binding, no matter if it was registered with the government or not... the CBP is not responsible for knowing the laws regarding a legal marriage acts of the hundreds of countries all over the world.... if there is a fact available that could impact an officer's decision in the determination of the admissibility of an alien and that fact is not given.. then it is a "material misrepresentation". It appears that you do not believe that divulging the marriage ceremony would impact an officer's determination in determining eligibility... I believe that it does.... It is reasonable to believe that if there was a wedding ceremony that the ceremony did involve a legally binding marriage... and I believe that the reasonable person would believe that it does as well...

[Anyta Holland 1]

Right, I tried reading the whole thread but found so much nonsense that decided to go straight to posting...

Can I just ask the OP:

1. Will you be signing anything when having the ceremony in the church?

2. Are you planning to let the whole DHS/USCIS/Embassies and Consulates know about what you're planning to do?

If you are not signing anything, I can't see how this would be illegal as this is just a simbolic thing to do, with no legal ties... And if it lacks legal ties, then how can this be illegal or a marriage as such?? You will have no paperwork for what I understand, there'll be no signing and nothing but pictures to remind you of that day.

Second, why would you let the POE officer or anyone know about this? I am assuming this is something personal, so I don't see why they should know or oppose to it. Plus, someone on a post before this one copied something about sombolic ceremonies, so what is the big deal?

Come on people, think about it, and make a bit of sense... This is just SIMBOLIC and as such it DOESN'T HAVE LEGAL TIES, which means that they won't be MARRIED in reality, so what is the problem if they want to celebrate in Brazil?

On the other hand, I am not sure you know about this, but a one way trip is sometimes more expensive than reound trips, so you would be spending the same amount of money... Unless you plan to go to Brazil to accompany wour fiance back to the USA, which is not necessary really...

Maybe if you read the thread in its entirety, you would get an understanding on why that may not be a good idea and the reasons why that is so... you may come away with a greater understanding of how the process at the POE works and be able to give educated responses should such a situation be asked again...

FYI I read more than half of the thread and is all absolute nonsense!

Also, I have already done the POE process, and they ask absolutely nothing about your status or your personal life, or what you did just before you came to America or what you're planning to do, so don't come and be so patronizing with me...

I am sorry if I am coming across quite rude, but I don't see what the whole fuzz is about!

It was not my intent to be patronizing... this discussion has been far from nonsense.. it has been a very good discussion on the risks of having a prior "non-legal wedding ceremony" in regards to your admission into the US on a K-1 visa and what may happen if the existance of that ceremony came out at the POE...

To come in and chime in without reading the discussion is not helping the OP and may actually hinder what is being discussed... I have been seeing this more and more lately... and I for one find it troubling. We as a whole must become a more educated community or we could be doing others a great disservice...

As I said, I read probably most of the thread (which basically is, people repeating themselves or quoting other people and saying that they should not go ahead with it).

IMO we would be doing a disservice to the OP by misinterpreting his question, which basically is 'what would happen if I have a church ceremony that won't mean anything to anyone but us'... People here have been adivising on not doing it, for God knows what reasons.

I stand by my second post where I said that once here there are no questions asked at POE (at least that's my experience), so why should we impose our points of view to the OP on how we would go to 'hell' if we even think of doing something like that?

In any case, it will be up to them whether they want to do it or not... I agree with rob&ana, that many people here are advising on not doing it just because they didn't do it or think that it is somehow illegal...

[Carol&Marc 0]

If its OKAY!......................................................Then why should They "" BE CAREFUL ""

If I understand correctly, because the officer at the POE has the power to send you back home on the next plane if he suspects fraud. Or that your ceremony MIGHT have been a legal one.

And because it is way harder to prove that you're NOT legally married than THAT you are legally married.

You might want to read the whole thread, then you might have a better idea of what is being discussed.

[rob&ana 0]

However, it is my opinion, that not revealing the presence of a wedding ceremony, legally binding or not, would make a difference in the CBP officer making a determination on the admissibility of the alien. Therefore, not revealing this fact would be a "material misrepresentation".

Ziggy,

I understand that you are trying to set the record, so people dont go around doing dumb things and messing up their processes. And frankly, I must be really dumb cause even the Bachelor example went over my head.

But if I went thru immigration at POE, and the CBP didnt ask me, and I didnt give any signs of being 'legally or illegally' married, and he let me in. And then, if I went thru AOS, and I didnt use my wedding pictures or whatever I have from the ceremony, as evidence. Will I still be in trouble??

[am1996 0]

I agree with the reference to the Bachelor... the fact of one watching "The Bachelor" would make no difference in the mind of a CBP officer on the admissibiility of an alien.. therefore not divilging a this fact which would not be material in the officer's determination would not constitute a "material misrepresentation" and therefore would not be subject to a ban..

However, it is my opinion, that not revealing the presence of a wedding ceremony, legally binding or not, would make a difference in the CBP officer making a determination on the admissibility of the alien. Therefore, not revealing this fact would be a "material misrepresentation".

The relevant question is not whether a certain answer would make a difference in the mind of a particular CBP officer. The relevant question is whether the answer makes a LEGAL difference -- both the "Bachelor" and a non-legally binding ceremony do NOT give rise to K-1 ineligibility (such ineligibility is specifically defined in the K-1 statute which, for the purposes of this discussion, only makes "legally married" aliens ineligible for admission). As long as the alien otherwise meets all other K-1 eligibility criteria, he/she is REQUIRED to be admitted.

There are several countries where a wedding ceremony is in fact legally binding, no matter if it was registered with the government or not... the CBP is not responsible for knowing the laws regarding a legal marriage acts of the hundreds of countries all over the world.... if there is a fact available that could impact an officer's decision in the determination of the admissibility of an alien and that fact is not given.. then it is a "material misrepresentation".

Once again, that's not the law. If the marriage ceremony is not in fact legally binding in the country in question, then the alien's decision not to disclose such ceremony cannot possibly constitute a "material misrepresentation" because it cannot, as a legal matter, make that person ineligible for admission. The law on this is well settled, is crystal clear and does not allow for varying interpretations. Please take a look at the FAM citations I provided above.

Now, if the CBP for some reason finds out about the ceremony (once again, the alien's decision not to disclose this information cannot be deemed a "material representation" thereof), they can and should question the alien about it. The burden of proof would then be on the alien to establish by, I believe, clear and convincing evidence that the ceremony was not, in fact, legally binding. If the alien has no documentation to support that fact then the CBP is within its legal right not to admit the alien because he/she has failed to meet its burden of proof. Once again, this situation would only arise if the CBP somehow finds out about the ceremony and the alien then fails to establish the non-binding nature thereof.

Edited October 18, 2006 by am1996

[rob&ana 0]

So basically...

If I were to get a ceremony, I should first investigate if a religious ceremony is legally binding in MY country of origin. Then make hard copies of that documentation and bring it with me to the POE, and ONLY in the case of being asked at POE, show this as proof that I am not legally married, so the CBP lets me enter the US.

right?

[jonty 0]

Here's a tricky one!! When I started my petition for the I-129F we picked a wedding day in her country (Brazil). That day is coming quickly. The petition was approved & is in the consular's office now. We want to get married in Brazil (just a church ceremony) before she actually gets the K-1 visa, then get legally married here in the USA. The marriage would not be a legal marriage in Brazil since there will be no marriage license or marriage certificate issued. It would not be a LEGAL marriage here in the USA either until we get married here...I'm assuming!! The U.S.A. State Department defines a spouse as: a person LEGALLY married to another. We certainly would not be common law husband & Wife. Could OR WILL the US government give us any problems since we had a marriage ceremony before she comes into the USA even though there was no marriage license issued. Keep in mind I spoke with an attorney friend of mine in Brazil & he assures me it would not be a legal marriage in Brazil. I would think if they did give us a problem for having a church ceremony in Brazil this would violate the USA's Separation Of Church & State policy. The whole reason for doing this is so we can save money on plane tickets.

Hello,

If the officials come to know that you are married, you will be denied the entry in the US.

[am1996 0]

So basically...

If I were to get a ceremony, I should first investigate if a religious ceremony is legally binding in MY country of origin. Then make hard copies of that documentation and bring it with me to the POE, and ONLY in the case of being asked at POE, show this as proof that I am not legally married, so the CBP lets me enter the US.

right?

You are asking for a legal advice, which we are not in the position to give you and cannot and should not give you because there could be other issues involved in your particular situation. We can only tell you what we would do and explain why we would do it (or not do it). Instead of simply following another person's approach, please be sure to independently examine the rationale behind it, confirm its accuracy and then make your own decision. Edited October 18, 2006 by am1996