legally married?

[Yodrak 7]

Randy,

The problem is generally not with the consulate. Consular staff know the laws and customs of the country where they are posted. The problem is with CPB and CIS offiecers in the USA, who know US laws and customs, where after a wedding ceremony the registration is essentially 'automatic' - the bride and groom do not typically go register their marriage in the USA (as they would in Thailand, whether or not there was a wedding ceremony, to use your example), someone goes and registers the marriage for them. All the bride and groom have to do is participate in a ceremony and they end up legally married.

Not knowing the laws of Thailand, a CBP or CIS officer who gets an indication that there was a wedding ceremony is going to view the situation in the context that he does know, and is going to expect that whatever registration may be required followed the ceremony as a matter of course.

See my post earlier in this thread in which I mentioned the experience of a petitioner who had a wedding ceremony in Thailand and included the photos with his I-129f petition for fiancee as evidence of the sincerety of the relationship. He was sent an RFE requesting proof that he was not married. Do you know how many amphurs there are in Thailand from which one would need to obtain a statement that no marriage had been registered in that amphur? (Not as many as there are counties in the 50 states of the USA, fortunately.)

Not that I don't see the point that you and others who share your opinion are making - my wife and I had a wedding ceremony in Thailand before she came to the USA as a K1. It was identical in all respects to the ceremony we'd had a year earlier on the completion of her newly constructed house - an indication that it isn't really a wedding ceremony at all as we westerners think of a wedding, it was a 'blessing' ceremony used for a variety of significant events. But I digress. The essential issue is to not allow extraneous information to get into the hands of people who quite reasonably will not understand the information properly and will take it to be something that it is not. If one is going to do this kind of thing, be careful. Be very careful.

Yodrak

I guess I fail to see where this is "risky" behavior. The law is VERY clear on this point as stated above. If it is a religious ceremony and not registered, then it is NOT a legal wedding as defined by USCIS and therefore the K1 is the appropriate visa. I did verify this with an email to the embassy that stated our intentions to make sure there would not be an issue. Their response? "Just make sure you do not register the wedding with the local 'District Office'. If you do THEN it becomes a legal marriage and the K1 not valid."

But, I realize each person must do what they feel is right for them.

Good Luck everybody!!!!

Edited October 18, 2006 by Yodrak

[meauxna 15]

The essential issue is to not allow extraneous information to get into the hands of people who quite reasonably will not understand the information properly and will take it to be something that it is not. If one is going to do this kind of thing, be careful. Be very careful.

The take-away I get from the conversation, and what I'd want others to 'get' is that IF someone wants to do this, they MUST be responsible and check ALL the details for their particular country.

It is absolutely insufficient to say, 'oh yeah, hey we did this and it worked' because I can see a radical difference in a Thai ceremony and a Colombian ceremony. It is not responsible posting, IMO, to not make the person asking aware of the differences, and to make sure that it's also communicated to the foreign fiance/e.

I think this is a case where people need to really understand what they are doing. A lot of times, they do not.

[Carol&Marc 0]

Just thought I would add, Yodrak and meauxna are knowledgeable on this stuff, They were very important to Carol and my success!

you see in our timeline no RFE

Thanks guys

Edited October 18, 2006 by Carol&Marc

[john_and_marlene 162]

I did it and you should too = I'm willing to risk your future with my advice.

[am1996 0]

Just to let you know Ana.. witholding information that may have led a CBP officer to a different conclusion regarding your eligibility for admittance into the US is also a material misrepresentation and carries with it a permanent ban...

i.e. if the officer knew about the other marriage ceremony.. they may not have let you in.. willfully witholding information regarding the prior wedding ceremoiny could be considered a material misrepresentation...

Zyggy, we have discussed this issue before. It is quite axiomatic that you are not required to volunteer information that would have no legal bearing on CBP's decision to admit you.

As such, for purposes of this discussion, CBP is only required to know whether you are legally married, since that is the only admission criterion in question. If the petitioner is not legally married, he/she is certainly not required to volunteer any information about the religious ceremony and it is not a "material misrepresentation" within the meaning of the applicable statutes.

Now, as a practical matter, I certainly agree with all the posters who urge caution. If your actions (wedding rings, referring to each other as "wife" or "husband," matching last names, etc...) or behavior at the POE raise concerns that you might in fact be married, you could encounter significant problems entering the country, even if you are legally entitled to do so.

Edited October 18, 2006 by am1996

[TucsonBill 0]

Granted, this just in from the 'misinformation line' but I called them about my RFE, got transferred to CSC and the person I spoke to said that having a cerimony only in the country of your fiance is very normal. She said she's been there for years and to pay no attention to what people post on message boards regarding this matter. I spelled it out quite clearly in my petition and my RFE that we already had wedding photos made, had a cerimony and even a date tentatively planned, and that I had checked and in Thailand, its quite an ordeal for a Thia to marry a foreigner - I even have to get approval from the US Embassy. She told me not to worry one bit, that wat I was doing was quite normal, and if there are any problems with my petition, it won't have anything to do with our planned ceremony in Thailand or our wedding photos. Again, I think my NOA2 is just around the corner, (hopefully) - and we'll see. I was 'assured' what I am planning to do is normal, it happens all the time, and I should have zero worries about it.

Bill

PS I might add that the RFE I received said nothing about any problem with having a religious ceremony in Thailand. I even marked on my credit card statement the place where I purchased 'wedding photos' and explained in the RFE that this was customary to do before the cerimony in Thailand. I expained it would be a ceremonly ONLY and that the legal marriage was planned for when we got to the USA.

Edited October 18, 2006 by TucsonBill

[am1996 0]

Just to explain it a bit further, a "misrepresentation" is an assertion or manifestation not in accordance with the facts. 9 FAM 40.63 N4.1. As for the "materiality" element, in this context a misrepresentation is only material if either (1) the alien is excludable on the true facts; or (2) the misrepresentation tends to shut off a line of inquiry which is relevant to the alien's eligibility and which might well have resulted in a proper determination that he be excluded." Matter of S- and B-C, 9 I&N 436, 9 FAM 40.63 N6.1.

Since, for the purposes of this discussion, a K-1 admission criteria only requires the alien not to be legally married, any way you slice it withholding information about a non-legally binding religious ceremony cannot possibly be construed a "material misrepresentation" that would trigger a ban.

This information notwithstanding, practical concerns about CBP's behavior if it is given sufficient grounds to suspect that you are married still apply.

[zyggy 9]

(2) the misrepresentation tends to shut off a line of inquiry which is relevant to the alien's eligibility and which might well have resulted in a proper determination that he be excluded." Matter of S- and B-C, 9 I&N 436, 9 FAM 40.63 N6.1.

am...

It is my opinion that the above does have an effect if one wilfully witholds the fact that one had a "non-legal marriage ceremony". Even if it may have been non-legal, the CBP doesn't know that.. and they don't know the laws that could make that happen.. in fact, what one may have considered a "non-legal" ceremony may have in fact been legal and binding...

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth... on one side your telling me that not divulging the fact of a marriage ceremony is not a misrepresentation and on the other side you're stating that the knowledge of the event is reasonable grounds to deny entry...

you can't have it both ways... if knowledge of the event is reasonable grounds that would influence the determination of the excludability of an indiviudal by a CBP officer, then failure to divulge that information, by the definition given above must be construed as a material misrepresentation...

My position stands....

Edited October 18, 2006 by zyggy

[Carol&Marc 0]

Granted, this just in from the 'misinformation line' but I called them about my RFE, got transferred to CSC and the person I spoke to said that having a cerimony only in the country of your fiance is very normal. She said she's been there for years and to pay no attention to what people post on message boards regarding this matter. I spelled it out quite clearly in my petition and my RFE that we already had wedding photos made, had a cerimony and even a date tentatively planned, and that I had checked and in Thailand, its quite an ordeal for a Thia to marry a foreigner - I even have to get approval from the US Embassy. She told me not to worry one bit, that wat I was doing was quite normal, and if there are any problems with my petition, it won't have anything to do with our planned ceremony in Thailand or our wedding photos. Again, I think my NOA2 is just around the corner, (hopefully) - and we'll see. I was 'assured' what I am planning to do is normal, it happens all the time, and I should have zero worries about it.

Bill

PS I might add that the RFE I received said nothing about any problem with having a religious ceremony in Thailand. I even marked on my credit card statement the place where I purchased 'wedding photos' and explained in the RFE that this was customary to do before the cerimony in Thailand. I expained it would be a ceremonly ONLY and that the legal marriage was planned for when we got to the USA.

The person you talked to on the info line won't be the one greeting you at the POE, ReREAD Yodraks Post! Wait months to be together and take a chance not me! but its your life!

Edited October 18, 2006 by Carol&Marc

[Anyta Holland 1]

Right, I tried reading the whole thread but found so much nonsense that decided to go straight to posting...

Can I just ask the OP:

1. Will you be signing anything when having the ceremony in the church?

2. Are you planning to let the whole DHS/USCIS/Embassies and Consulates know about what you're planning to do?

If you are not signing anything, I can't see how this would be illegal as this is just a simbolic thing to do, with no legal ties... And if it lacks legal ties, then how can this be illegal or a marriage as such?? You will have no paperwork for what I understand, there'll be no signing and nothing but pictures to remind you of that day.

Second, why would you let the POE officer or anyone know about this? I am assuming this is something personal, so I don't see why they should know or oppose to it. Plus, someone on a post before this one copied something about sombolic ceremonies, so what is the big deal?

Come on people, think about it, and make a bit of sense... This is just SIMBOLIC and as such it DOESN'T HAVE LEGAL TIES, which means that they won't be MARRIED in reality, so what is the problem if they want to celebrate in Brazil?

On the other hand, I am not sure you know about this, but a one way trip is sometimes more expensive than round trips, so you would be spending the same amount of money... Unless you plan to go to Brazil to accompany wour fiance back to the USA, which is not necessary really...

Edited for typos...

Edited October 18, 2006 by Anyta Holland

[Peter Miami 0]

Granted, this just in from the 'misinformation line' but I called them about my RFE, got transferred to CSC and the person I spoke to said that having a cerimony only in the country of your fiance is very normal. She said she's been there for years and to pay no attention to what people post on message boards regarding this matter. I spelled it out quite clearly in my petition and my RFE that we already had wedding photos made, had a cerimony and even a date tentatively planned, and that I had checked and in Thailand, its quite an ordeal for a Thia to marry a foreigner - I even have to get approval from the US Embassy. She told me not to worry one bit, that wat I was doing was quite normal, and if there are any problems with my petition, it won't have anything to do with our planned ceremony in Thailand or our wedding photos. Again, I think my NOA2 is just around the corner, (hopefully) - and we'll see. I was 'assured' what I am planning to do is normal, it happens all the time, and I should have zero worries about it.

Bill

PS I might add that the RFE I received said nothing about any problem with having a religious ceremony in Thailand. I even marked on my credit card statement the place where I purchased 'wedding photos' and explained in the RFE that this was customary to do before the cerimony in Thailand. I expained it would be a ceremonly ONLY and that the legal marriage was planned for when we got to the USA.

The person you talked to on the info line won't be the one greeting you at the POE, ReREAD Yodraks Post!

Very true!

At the mis-information line they do not know anything, they could not even tell me if my change of address had been corrected but now all of a sudden they can answer technical questions. Wow, how they have improve in about two weeks.

Peter Miami

[zyggy 9]

Right, I tried reading the whole thread but found so much nonsense that decided to go straight to posting...

Can I just ask the OP:

1. Will you be signing anything when having the ceremony in the church?

2. Are you planning to let the whole DHS/USCIS/Embassies and Consulates know about what you're planning to do?

If you are not signing anything, I can't see how this would be illegal as this is just a simbolic thing to do, with no legal ties... And if it lacks legal ties, then how can this be illegal or a marriage as such?? You will have no paperwork for what I understand, there'll be no signing and nothing but pictures to remind you of that day.

Second, why would you let the POE officer or anyone know about this? I am assuming this is something personal, so I don't see why they should know or oppose to it. Plus, someone on a post before this one copied something about sombolic ceremonies, so what is the big deal?

Come on people, think about it, and make a bit of sense... This is just SIMBOLIC and as such it DOESN'T HAVE LEGAL TIES, which means that they won't be MARRIED in reality, so what is the problem if they want to celebrate in Brazil?

On the other hand, I am not sure you know about this, but a one way trip is sometimes more expensive than reound trips, so you would be spending the same amount of money... Unless you plan to go to Brazil to accompany wour fiance back to the USA, which is not necessary really...

Maybe if you read the thread in its entirety, you would get an understanding on why that may not be a good idea and the reasons why that is so... you may come away with a greater understanding of how the process at the POE works and be able to give educated responses should such a situation be asked again...

[am1996 0]

It is my opinion that the above does have an effect if one wilfully witholds the fact that one had a "non-legal marriage ceremony". Even if it may have been non-legal, the CBP doesn't know that.. and they don't know the laws that could make that happen.. in fact, what one may have considered a "non-legal" ceremony may have in fact been legal and binding...

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth... on one side your telling me that not divulging the fact of a marriage ceremony is not a misrepresentation and on the other side you're stating that the knowledge of the event is reasonable grounds to deny entry...

No, it is certainly NOT reasonable grounds to deny entry. What I am saying is that if CBP does somehow find out about the religious ceremony, even though the law is completely on the alien's side, as a practical matter the particular CBP officer in question could end up denying entry.

Now, this is the usual concern when dealing with government agencies and law enforcement -- it's always possible to run into an overzealous and undertrained officer who, inspite of the law being on your side, will improperly and illegally flex his muscle.

The law is QUITE CLEAR on this, however -- if the religious marriage was not, in fact, a binding legal marriage, then the alien's decision not to mention the fact of such marriage to the CBP or USCIS does NOT consitute a "material misrepresentation" and is not grounds to deny entry. For further support of this, please see 9 FAM 40.63 N6.3-5 (see examples in (a)1 and 2). The fact of a non-binding, non-religious marriage does not and cannot establish a basis for finding of ineligibility and, therefore, an alien's failure to mention it does not and cannot consitute "material misrepresentation" within the meaning of the applicable statutes.

Edited October 18, 2006 by am1996

[Anyta Holland 1]

Right, I tried reading the whole thread but found so much nonsense that decided to go straight to posting...

Can I just ask the OP:

1. Will you be signing anything when having the ceremony in the church?

2. Are you planning to let the whole DHS/USCIS/Embassies and Consulates know about what you're planning to do?

If you are not signing anything, I can't see how this would be illegal as this is just a simbolic thing to do, with no legal ties... And if it lacks legal ties, then how can this be illegal or a marriage as such?? You will have no paperwork for what I understand, there'll be no signing and nothing but pictures to remind you of that day.

Second, why would you let the POE officer or anyone know about this? I am assuming this is something personal, so I don't see why they should know or oppose to it. Plus, someone on a post before this one copied something about sombolic ceremonies, so what is the big deal?

Come on people, think about it, and make a bit of sense... This is just SIMBOLIC and as such it DOESN'T HAVE LEGAL TIES, which means that they won't be MARRIED in reality, so what is the problem if they want to celebrate in Brazil?

On the other hand, I am not sure you know about this, but a one way trip is sometimes more expensive than reound trips, so you would be spending the same amount of money... Unless you plan to go to Brazil to accompany wour fiance back to the USA, which is not necessary really...

Maybe if you read the thread in its entirety, you would get an understanding on why that may not be a good idea and the reasons why that is so... you may come away with a greater understanding of how the process at the POE works and be able to give educated responses should such a situation be asked again...

FYI I read more than half of the thread and is all absolute nonsense!

Also, I have already done the POE process, and they ask absolutely nothing about your status or your personal life, or what you did just before you came to America or what you're planning to do, so don't come and be so patronizing with me...

I am sorry if I am coming across quite rude, but I don't see what the whole fuzz is about!

[rob&ana 0]

I did it and you should too = I'm willing to risk your future with my advice.

I didnt do it = You shouldnt do it because I say so.

This is what is bothering me! Just because you didnt (and I didnt either!) does not mean that others cannot!! They just have to be aware of the risks, and be careful when going thru POE or AOS.