legally married?

[zyggy 9]

He told us a long long time ago the he is an ex CBP....

Kezzie

Interesting... He didn't disclose this fact in this thread. I'm sure I'm not the only one who didn't know this little bit of knowledge. That would certainly change things a bit. I'm more apt to take into account of what he says about his experiences while working as a CBP.

Still, the law is pretty clear on this. But there will forever be over-zealous officers in every force in every corner of the world. That's just reality.

A black person driving through rural Mississippi during the wee hours of the night may indeed be pulled over and harrassed by the local hickville police/sheriff--that is reality--but does that mean we should advise all black people to not drive at night time in rural areas of the South? I should hope not. The law is clearly on the side of the black person, but indeed he or she may still be harrassed.

I would never urge people to kow-tow to over-zealous officers if indeed the law is clearly on the side of the people.

How is anything I have said give any impression that I and the CBP are not following the law... am1996 and I disagree on the interpretation of the law regarding a material misrepresentation, but we and many other long time posters agree that the CBP has the authority to deny entry if any evidence brings into doubt the ability of an alien to be free and able to marry... and that is the main point of this discussion...

So I don't see how questioning whether an alien is legally free and able to marry if there is evidence that suggests the contrary constitutes overzealousness on the part of the CBP... perhaps you should step back a bit and understand how things work..

Edited October 19, 2006 by zyggy

[Caladan 19]

SirL, the officer in the border case isn't doing anything illegal, unlike the harassment by the hypothetical police officers. And the person trying to enter the country isn't doing anything illegal, most likely, by not volunteering information.

Thing is, though, all the legality in the world won't help you if the CBP officer decides to deny you entry, because they have that authority to make that decision. It may not come up, and in many cases it hasn't. But if it does come up, it's not as though the CBP officer has to first go to a court where you can calmly argue that your religious ceremony without a civil ceremony means that you're not married. They're fully authorized to deny entry if there is evidence that the visa holder isn't free to marry -- even if it turns out they were wrong.

[SirLancelot 1]

He told us a long long time ago the he is an ex CBP....

Kezzie

Interesting... He didn't disclose this fact in this thread. I'm sure I'm not the only one who didn't know this little bit of knowledge. That would certainly change things a bit. I'm more apt to take into account of what he says about his experiences while working as a CBP.

Still, the law is pretty clear on this. But there will forever be over-zealous officers in every force in every corner of the world. That's just reality.

A black person driving through rural Mississippi during the wee hours of the night may indeed be pulled over and harrassed by the local hickville police/sheriff--that is reality--but does that mean we should advise all black people to not drive at night time in rural areas of the South? I should hope not. The law is clearly on the side of the black person, but indeed he or she may still be harrassed.

I would never urge people to kow-tow to over-zealous officers if indeed the law is clearly on the side of the people.

How is anything I have said give any impression that I and the CBP are not following the law... am1996 and I disagree on the interpretation of the law regarding a material misrepresentation, but we and many other long time posters agree that the CBP has the authority to deny entry if any evidence brings into doubt the ability of an alien to be free and able to marry... and that is the main point of this discussion...

So I don't see how questioning whether an alien is legally free and able to marry if there is evidence that suggests the contrary constitutes overzealousness on the part of the CBP... perhaps you should step back a bit and understand how things work..

zyggy, I could have been more clear in my post. I am not stating that you are or were an over-zealous officer. I was saying that there have been and forever will be over-zealous officers all over the world. Indeed a new immigrant may encounter such an over-zealous border agent and be denied entry, but that should NOT be the norm. And it does NOT mean all decisions made by every POE agent is fair and correct.

As CPB agents, you indeed have an extraordinary amount of power. Just because a CPB agent has that authority doesn't make him immune to error or over-zealousness. And because an immigrant has less legal ground to challenge a decision made by the CPB agent than a US Citizen, it makes it that much harder for them to receive fair and objective treatment by all CPB agents.

I agree CPB agents have broad authority to deny entry. And I agree that they can ask all necessary questions to alleviate any suspicions they might have, but the law specifically refers to a legal marriage, not a religious ceremony.

In my opinion, a CPB agent is NOT doing his or her job proficiently if he or she denied entry to a person coming on a K-1 visa who had NOT been legally married in his or her country of origin. Does it happen in reality? Sure it does, but that doesn't mean the CPB agent did his job properly.

Lastly, with all due respect, I think I understand how this part of the process work fairly well. I may not know as much as you, being that you're ex-CPB, but I know the process fairly well as a lay person. And I wouldn't allow you to use this as an excuse to circumvent the law. Because I'm a lay-person, I should keep quiet and acquiesce to everything you declare? That line of dictatorial reasoning doesn't sit well with me at all.

[Caladan 19]

In my opinion, a CPB agent is NOT doing his or her job proficiently if he or she denied entry to a person coming on a K-1 visa who had NOT been legally married in his or her country of origin. Does it happen in reality? Sure it does, but that doesn't mean the CPB agent did his job properly.

I think it's more a practical worry. The burden of proof is on the entrant, not the CBP. If your fiancé slips up and says 'wife' or 'husband', the CBP doesn't have to prove that you are married, just that there's to deny. That is doing their job; you'd be in the position of having to prove that you weren't married after a slip-up. They wouldn't have to prove that they had shown you weren't married, just that you hadn't given them reason to doubt.

The problem isn't best stated as that 'they would deny based on a religious ceremony though they have no right to'. The problem is that they might not be able to tell from the evidence your panicking fiancée manages to present after the slip-up whether the religious ceremony counted as a legal ceremony. And if they can't tell, they might not take her word for it.

[meauxna 15]

The problem isn't best stated as that 'they would deny based on a religious ceremony though they have no right to'. The problem is that they might not be able to tell from the evidence your panicking fiancée manages to present after the slip-up whether the religious ceremony counted as a legal ceremony. And if they can't tell, they might not take her word for it.

You say stuff good.

That whole post is great, C, and this para describes exactly how most of the situations we've read about go down.

[CAM13 0]

Well quite a few long time VJ members (me included) and a former immigration officer says don't do it.

"Fools go where wise men fear to tread."

Well thanks again for all who have put their 2 cents in on this matter. we made a decision & decided to postpone the wedding in Brazil until we can go back there with no problems. Ofcourse we're gonna have a legal & religious wedding here in the states first. Unfortunately my mom can't go to Brazil with us so she informed me my wedding wouldn't count unless she could be there for one of them. We figured there are too many possibilities the aos process could go wrong even though this would be a rather trivial issue in my opinion. mdyoung...I really like your quote about fools, it certainly could be applied here in this case...however in other circumstances remember...heroes also go where wise men fear to tread. as well as gamblers. And by the way...Newcastle is going to shred Man U when they play again this year...well probably not but I hope so...Alan Shearer...the toon army misses you!! & appareantly we have a jinx on us because we can't keep our star players healthy (Shay Given, Michael Owen, Keiron Dyer, & the list will just go on I'm sure!)

[CAM13 0]

I guess I just don't understand....why do some of y'all want to do this anyway. I mean, the K1 is a fiancé(e) visa, if you want to get married first, then do so and file the K3. Why in god's name would anyone want to take a chance of being denied??? This journey is stressful enough without having to bring this component into it.

*sigh* not being judgmental...just wondering is all.

Hi im the op...Just to appease your curiosity, The wedding was planned long before I found out this could be a potential problem. Like I said the U.S. state department defines a spouse as someone who is legally married to another. however the state department does not say what makes a MARRIAGE legal...atleast not that I can find. So If i did get married in Brazil first it would not be a legal marriage as far as the brazillian govt is concerned & I am ASSUMING it wouldn't be a legal marriage here either...but I don't know for sure!! Plus there is too much of a human element...CBP officer has the power of discretion as well as the uscis officer so I figure why run the risk. That's just my opinion & to each his own!! I have read many different opinions on this matter posted here & I have seen many points as valid, but each person/couple has to decide whether they want to risk it or not...that is up to them.

[Carol&Marc 0]

Well quite a few long time VJ members (me included) and a former immigration officer says don't do it.

"Fools go where wise men fear to tread."

Well thanks again for all who have put their 2 cents in on this matter. we made a decision & decided to postpone the wedding in Brazil until we can go back there with no problems. Ofcourse we're gonna have a legal & religious wedding here in the states first. Unfortunately my mom can't go to Brazil with us so she informed me my wedding wouldn't count unless she could be there for one of them. We figured there are too many possibilities the aos process could go wrong even though this would be a rather trivial issue in my opinion. mdyoung...I really like your quote about fools, it certainly could be applied here in this case...however in other circumstances remember...heroes also go where wise men fear to tread. as well as gamblers. And by the way...Newcastle is going to shred Man U when they play again this year...well probably not but I hope so...Alan Shearer...the toon army misses you!! & appareantly we have a jinx on us because we can't keep our star players healthy (Shay Given, Michael Owen, Keiron Dyer, & the list will just go on I'm sure!)

very good!

[Yodrak 7]

CAM,

Yes, the US government has said what makes a marriage 'legal' - if the marriage is recognized by the government of the place where it was performed, it is recognized by the USA for immigraton purposes.

Yodrak

Hi im the op..... Like I said the U.S. state department defines a spouse as someone who is legally married to another. however the state department does not say what makes a MARRIAGE legal...atleast not that I can find. ......

Edited October 20, 2006 by Yodrak

[SirLancelot 1]

CAM,

Yes, the US government has said what makes a marriage 'legal' - if the marriage is recognized by the government of the place where it was performed, it is recognized by the USA for immigraton purposes.

Yodrak

Hi im the op..... Like I said the U.S. state department defines a spouse as someone who is legally married to another. however the state department does not say what makes a MARRIAGE legal...atleast not that I can find. ......

EXCEPT homosexual marriages. The US is under NO obligations to recognize gay marriages from the Netherlands or Canada which both offer legalized gay marriages.

[Yodrak 7]

SirLancelot,

Yes, thanks for adding that.

Yodrak

CAM,

Yes, the US government has said what makes a marriage 'legal' - if the marriage is recognized by the government of the place where it was performed, it is recognized by the USA for immigraton purposes.

Yodrak

Hi im the op..... Like I said the U.S. state department defines a spouse as someone who is legally married to another. however the state department does not say what makes a MARRIAGE legal...atleast not that I can find. ......

EXCEPT homosexual marriages. The US is under NO obligations to recognize gay marriages from the Netherlands or Canada which both offer legalized gay marriages.

Edited October 20, 2006 by Yodrak

[Carol&Marc 0]

CAM,

Yes, the US government has said what makes a marriage 'legal' - if the marriage is recognized by the government of the place where it was performed, it is recognized by the USA for immigraton purposes.

Yodrak

Hi im the op..... Like I said the U.S. state department defines a spouse as someone who is legally married to another. however the state department does not say what makes a MARRIAGE legal...atleast not that I can find. ......

EXCEPT homosexual marriages. The US is under NO obligations to recognize gay marriages from the Netherlands or Canada which both offer legalized gay marriages.

[/quote

LANCE go do what ever you do BEST!

[diadromous mermaid 36]

SirLancelot,

Yes, thanks for adding that.

Yodrak

CAM,

Yes, the US government has said what makes a marriage 'legal' - if the marriage is recognized by the government of the place where it was performed, it is recognized by the USA for immigraton purposes.

Yodrak

Hi im the op..... Like I said the U.S. state department defines a spouse as someone who is legally married to another. however the state department does not say what makes a MARRIAGE legal...atleast not that I can find. ......

EXCEPT homosexual marriages. The US is under NO obligations to recognize gay marriages from the Netherlands or Canada which both offer legalized gay marriages.

...and multiples

[SirLancelot 1]

SirLancelot,

Yes, thanks for adding that.

Yodrak

CAM,

Yes, the US government has said what makes a marriage 'legal' - if the marriage is recognized by the government of the place where it was performed, it is recognized by the USA for immigraton purposes.

Yodrak

Hi im the op..... Like I said the U.S. state department defines a spouse as someone who is legally married to another. however the state department does not say what makes a MARRIAGE legal...atleast not that I can find. ......

EXCEPT homosexual marriages. The US is under NO obligations to recognize gay marriages from the Netherlands or Canada which both offer legalized gay marriages.

...and multiples

Hahah... right... so true. I totally forgot about the polygamists.