Wisconsin Recall

[Leatherneck 693]

But all the same, Walker's idea was not to negotiate with them for he did not compromise either, which is my point that he is no better than those sitting across the table from him. It does not surprise me nor should it. He is a politician after all.

Yes, it is true some employees make a lot of money selling back their sick time and vacation. Before you engage in class warfare complaining about those who make a lot of money, you need to look at the reasons these people are getting that money in the first place. Are they forsaking their vacation and gong to work? I think it would be rather unwise to make any calls without looking into the reasons for these disbursements, before anyone makes a call. Maybe it is not their compensation that needs revising, so much as the policies under which they are deriving their salaries and the possibility of abuses.

Obviously you misunderstood my comments or took them out of context. Not once did I complain about salaries -- my focus has been on the budget busting pensions, that is not class warfare, but fact. This is simply about the math and the unsustainable recklessness of those plans, The City of Stockton -- the banks foreclosed on the new city hall, which is also headed to bankruptcy and San Jose has 4 libraries that can't be opened. Having folks retire at age 50 with 90% of their salary and earning more in retirement as a result of pension spiking, at the expense of tax payers that must work until age 65 before they themselves retire is economically unsound. The dynamics of the relationship between public employee unions and the politicians that benefit from the goodies they give away to the unions has caused the problem.

Click the red highlighted "pension spiking" and look at the video and get it from the mouth of the mayor of San Jose, the scope of the problem. After educating yourself a bit more, come back and tell me I'm engaged in class warfare and that you see nothing wrong with out-of-control budget busting pensions.

http://bloom.bg/IjSrKw

<---- the video

[JohnR! 5,495]

1339201669[/url]' post='5432527']

Obviously you misunderstood my comments or took them out of context. Not once did I complain about salaries -- my focus has been on the budget busting pensions, that is not class warfare, but fact. This is simply about the math and the unsustainable recklessness of those plans, The City of Stockton -- the banks foreclosed on the new city hall, which is also headed to bankruptcy and San Jose has 4 libraries that can't be opened. Having folks retire at age 50 with 90% of their salary and earning more in retirement as a result of pension spiking, at the expense of tax payers that must work until age 65 before they themselves retire is economically unsound. The dynamics of the relationship between public employee unions and the politicians that benefit from the goodies they give away to the unions has caused the problem.

Click the red highlighted "pension spiking" and look at the video and get it from the mouth of the mayor of San Jose, the scope of the problem. After educating yourself a bit more, come back and tell me I'm engaged in class warfare and that you see nothing wrong with out-of-control budget busting pensions.

http://bloom.bg/IjSrKw

<---- the video

I think the basic difference is that San Jose seems to be taking the issue to the voters, in a democratic way. I believe that is a far better approach than the course of action taken by Walker, who decided to go it alone without consulting with his cinstituency on this matter.

It seems rather ironic that the liberals should put the issue to vote while the conservative governor opted for a less American avenue.

[Pooky 3,784]

I think the basic difference is that San Jose seems to be taking the issue to the voters, in a democratic way. I believe that is a far better approach than the course of action taken by Walker, who decided to go it alone without consulting with his cinstituency on this matter.

It seems rather ironic that the liberals should put the issue to vote while the conservative governor opted for a less American avenue.

Thing is, walker still received the backing of the majority of Wisconsin voters. All he did was move the rancor and recrimination until after the law was passed. End result is still the same.

[JohnR! 5,495]

1339258375[/url]' post='5433438']

Thing is, walker still received the backing of the majority of Wisconsin voters. All he did was move the rancor and recrimination until after the law was passed. End result is still the same.

Still, the very reason Wisconsin is divided over this matter might indicate that pursuing addressing the issue through the democratic vote would have given him a stronger backing. I am glad that San Jose is putting the issue up to be decided by those it impacts the most.

[Pooky 3,784]

Still, the very reason Wisconsin is divided over this matter might indicate that pursuing addressing the issue through the democratic vote would have given him a stronger backing. I am glad that San Jose is putting the issue up to be decided by those it impacts the most.

So you would accept that SB AZ 1070, Arizona's law supporting State level illegal immigration law enforcement should stand, as it is supported by almost 70% of the American people nationwide, as well as in the state of Arizona?

Because it seems to me that many on the left of the political spectrum would prefer not to let public opinion guide policy, as "the mob" don't deserve a say in this representative democracy.

Yet, when a politician with a mandate from his electorate signs a law which they don't like, they would rather he defer to public opinion. Or could it be that, with an overwhelming Democrat slant to the electorate of San Jose, there is a higher level of "trust" of the electorate?

[JohnR! 5,495]

1339260162[/url]' post='5433495']

So you would accept that SB AZ 1070, Arizona's law supporting State level illegal immigration law enforcement should stand, as it is supported by almost 70% of the American people nationwide, as well as in the state of Arizona?

I believe the U.S. Constitution has verbiage to the effect that immigration matters fall under the jurisdiction of the federal government. In this case the Articles of the X Amendment attach, in that Arizona is bound by the terms of its acceptance into the Union.

Rather a different case altogether than the issue being discussed in this thread.

[Leatherneck 693]

I think the basic difference is that San Jose seems to be taking the issue to the voters, in a democratic way. I believe that is a far better approach than the course of action taken by Walker, who decided to go it alone without consulting with his cinstituency on this matter.

It seems rather ironic that the liberals should put the issue to vote while the conservative governor opted for a less American avenue.

Scott Walker ran his campaign for governor on the very issue. Therefore, he did not "go it alone" obviously the folks that voted for him agreed with his message and that was his mandate once elected. So the voters in WI did have their say, and they said it even louder the second time -- the man got more votes than when first elected.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Leatherneck

[Leatherneck 693]

Still, the very reason Wisconsin is divided over this matter might indicate that pursuing addressing the issue through the democratic vote would have given him a stronger backing. I am glad that San Jose is putting the issue up to be decided by those it impacts the most.

There is division over the matter, simply because there are those that could care less about running state and local govt over a financial cliff as long as they get their slice of cheese and those paying for the cheese that do care.

The issue was addressed by the voters during the first election, the unions forced the issue again with the recall. Again, for the second time around, the voters spoke very clearly and even louder.

Maybe the louder message from the voters has something to do with approving of a Governor turning a $3.6B deficit into a $150M surplus and lowering the unemployment rate, most rational folks would prefer a surplus over a deficit.

[dalegg 143]

The failure of the recall was the end of Democracy and the U.S as we know it--

Democracy Died

[Leatherneck 693]

Dead is where democracy belongs and it should stay dead.

[JohnR! 5,495]

1339285533[/url]' post='5434031']

Dead is where democracy belongs and it should stay dead.

I wonder how many Marines would agree with that statement. Rather ironic, IMHO.

[Pooky 3,784]

The failure of the recall was the end of Democracy and the U.S as we know it--

Democracy Died

This shows just how much respect Democrats have for the democratic process when they lose, i.e. none

[Leatherneck 693]

I wonder how many Marines would agree with that statement. Rather ironic, IMHO.

All of them would agree. Marines and other uniformed service members take an oath to 'uphold the Constitution' and the Constitution guarantees to the states a republican form of government -- not a democracy.

Republicanism should thrive and democracy should never see the light of day in this country.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

All of them would agree. Marines and other uniformed service members take an oath to 'uphold the Constitution' and the Constitution guarantees to the states a republican form of government -- not a democracy.

Republicanism should thrive and democracy should never see the light of day in this country.

You're getting caught up in semantics. In political science, our form of government is a democratic one, albeit a representational democracy. In fact, there are no absolute democracies in this world, which is more commonly referred to as mob rule. And yes, it is good thing we don't have mob rule in this country because we try and protect even the least of our citizens and even when they are unpopular or what they say or do is unpopular. There's the irony that Gegel was referring to. Right Wingers often embrace mob rule to the suppression of civil rights of minorities such as gay rights.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Mister Fancypants

[Pooky 3,784]

You're getting caught up in semantics. In political science, our form of government is a democratic one, albeit a representational democracy. In fact, there are no absolute democracies in this world, which is more commonly referred to as mob rule. And yes, it is good thing we don't have mob rule in this country because we try and protect even the least of our citizens and even when they are unpopular or what they say or do is unpopular. There's the irony that Gegel was referring to. Right Wingers often embrace mob rule to the suppression of civil rights of minorities such as gay rights.

Yet here we have a Democrat saying that democracy is dead, simply because democracy returned a result he didn't like. Now that's ironic.