Marriage Protection & Recourse in Law and Faith

[Veiled Princess 1]

Hehe. To me it's reading a bit like the More Muslim Than Thou Olympics. Judged sort of like figure skating or gymnastics:

'Bob, she's got the veil, which is a conventional style often appreciated by the judges, but she's pushing new frontiers with her insistance on a paper marriage, something new and daring! It could work in her favor, but it's got a very high degree of difficulty. I hope she sticks the landing!'

'Here's our classically trained rising star, who has incorporated shouts of 'fornicator! fornicator!' into her routine, in an attempt to garner artistic accolades.'

[Together4ever 1]

Wow, you girls sure know how to make religion look appealing!

Not.

When I sign up, do I get a certain number of Smiting Certificates along with my new judgemental vocabulary?

Without reading the minutia of this argument (again!) and understanding that I am a godless dog to you, I have to say that it's my opinion that God looks more benevolently on those who tend to their own personal relationship with him and aren't running around smacking down other humans--I mean, isn't that his job? It's my observation that when religious folk get too wound up in their rituals instead of what's behind the rituals are about as far from God as they can be.

Since you opened it up to non-Muslims.

Thank you............. and ameen.

This has become an embarassment.

[Caladan 19]

Under VP's version, you don't need the contract to be married in Islam, and if you don't register the marriage, you can still count as married. Is protection and enforcement not tied to local culture at all?

Actually I do believe you have to have a marriage contract... I just don't agree that any govt... much less a non-muslim one... has to recognize it in order for it to be valid.

Personal responsibility has to come in to play at some point.

So it would just need to be a contract between two people and God? But it's not a sacrament? Would a contract more than that even make sense in the U.S., what with all the no-fault divorce laws?

This has been interesting to me apart from the sniping, as it's a very different view of marriage than is in my own tradition (which is pretty much about telling civil authorities to stuff it.), where any legal contractual authority is pretty much relativised to culture. (i.e., there's no spousal support rule in Catholicism, but if the culture has rules, they'll probably be picked up by the local diocese.) We have pre-Cana stuff but it's just basically pre-marital counselling.

[deeshla 0]

Wow, you girls sure know how to make religion look appealing!

Not.

When I sign up, do I get a certain number of Smiting Certificates along with my new judgemental vocabulary?

Without reading the minutia of this argument (again!) and understanding that I am a godless dog to you, I have to say that it's my opinion that God looks more benevolently on those who tend to their own personal relationship with him and aren't running around smacking down other humans--I mean, isn't that his job? It's my observation that when religious folk get too wound up in their rituals instead of what's behind the rituals are about as far from God as they can be.

Since you opened it up to non-Muslims.

This is about the most refreshing thing I've read on this forum.

[Veiled Princess 1]

So it would just need to be a contract between two people and God? But it's not a sacrament? Would a contract more than that even make sense in the U.S., what with all the no-fault divorce laws?

This has been interesting to me apart from the sniping, as it's a very different view of marriage than is in my own tradition (which is pretty much about telling civil authorities to stuff it.), where any legal contractual authority is pretty much relativised to culture. (i.e., there's no spousal support rule in Catholicism, but if the culture has rules, they'll probably be picked up by the local diocese.) We have pre-Cana stuff but it's just basically pre-marital counselling.

I guess this is the way I see it....

If you make a contract with your friend Fred, does it really matter if I choose not to recognize your contract? It's a contract between you and Fred right? I have nothing to do with your contract with Fred.

Now, I'm not sure what drives you to fulfill your contract but I would hope honesty and fairness would be some of your reasons and not just because, if you don't, someone's gonna make you.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

As far as visa fraud is concerned, the only question as far as *fraud* goes is whether the marriage is misrepresented legally. If two people decide they're 'married in their heart' it doesn't matter a whit to the civil authorities unless it means their criteria for a legal marriage. So I'm not seeing how VP could be committing visa fraud if she's a) not legally recognized as married not recognized religiously as married (according to szsz) and c) files on a fiancé visa.

That's not an issue.

Thanks also for the judgemental slams at Islam, caldron and meauxna. I'm sure you would enjoy slams at judgemental Catholism and whatever you subscribe to, but I won't bother. And the word fornicator has not come from my fingertips to this thread, but it has come from yours. If that is all you get from this thread, then you got what you came for.

Since you opened it up to non-Muslims.

Yes, non-Muslims were invited, but I didn't expect all of you to understand the discussion. I was right. Why should you? Some of the MENA girls don't either. Keep laughing!

[meauxna 15]

This has been interesting to me apart from the sniping, as it's a very different view of marriage than is in my own tradition (which is pretty much about telling civil authorities to stuff it.), where any legal contractual authority is pretty much relativised to culture. (i.e., there's no spousal support rule in Catholicism, but if the culture has rules, they'll probably be picked up by the local diocese.) We have pre-Cana stuff but it's just basically pre-marital counselling.

It's interesting to me, too. I hope my earlier comments didn't indicate otherwise.. I *am* a godless heathen now, but come out of the Catholic tradition as well.

I think the major conflict here (and I apologize sincerely if I am oversimplifying or stating the obvious.. I've never really talked this out with anyone) is that Catholicism has a titular and spiritual head alive today in O Papas. He, or the Vatican, provide the nitpicky directions that people seem to need to navigate daily life.

Now, the Orthodoxers and the Catholics split awhile back, and the O's have their own heads of Church (amazing to watch the same kind of bickering go on between them, btw, but mostly O's and Catholics don't talk, so the conversation simply doesn't happen). then the O's are split further between Eastern, Greek and likely more. But these *regional differences* stay regional, and Xtians don't seem to argue as much *in general* as Muslims.

I conclude that there is a heavy dose of *cultural* differences influencing Islam, and since there is no one Head of the Religion to settle the argument, there's no way to settle it.

Therefore, I think it's a big fat waste of time for these two parties here to even try to discuss right/wrong. They're both as right as they are wrong. Just as I will *always* be going to Hell in someone's eyes, it's really up to ME to decide what is "right" in my world and not concern myself with others' souls, behaviors and where they are going to end up (or not).

Live right in the world, do right by your fellow man and try to improve things a little bit before you shuffle off the mortal coil.

Hopefully none of us has a hard time figuring out what is 'right' in that context.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I guess this is the way I see it....

If you make a contract with your friend Fred, does it really matter if I choose not to recognize your contract? It's a contract between you and Fred right? I have nothing to do with your contract with Fred.

Now, I'm not sure what drives you to fulfill your contract but I would hope honesty and fairness would be some of your reasons and not just because, if you don't, someone's gonna make you.

You see it that way coz you know nothing about contracts and you're not interested in learning about them. But, hey, I work for a law firm; I do contracts. And it's people like you who pay us well. Complain all you want about spending money to try to secure your rights under a contract that has no legal bearing, honey, but with your attitude about what people "should" do, you will. I've seen it all before.

I conclude that there is a heavy dose of *cultural* differences influencing Islam, and since there is no one Head of the Religion to settle the argument, there's no way to settle it.

Therefore, I think it's a big fat waste of time for these two parties here to even try to discuss right/wrong. They're both as right as they are wrong.

You're right about there being cultural differences re some issues, but this is not one of them. Islam cares about protection and enforcement of the marital contract, even if some Muslims don't.

Edited October 16, 2006 by szsz

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Without reading the minutia of this argument (again!) and understanding that I am a godless dog to you, I have to say that it's my opinion that God looks more benevolently on those who tend to their own personal relationship with him and aren't running around smacking down other humans--I mean, isn't that his job?

In Islam, it's our job too.

9.71 The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey God and His Apostle. On them will God pour His mercy: for God is Exalted in power, Wise.

4.135 O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is

well- acquainted with all that ye do.

It is our job to judge between good and evil, not like on the Last Day, but we are not to stand by and be silent when justice can be promoted. So, calling a Muslim who is doing her duty to prevent a wrong judgemental is not a deterent. Muslim marriages without protection and recourse are not vehicles for justice and Islam requires justice in marriage. So, when you see another Muslim presenting the idea that the faith cares not for these principles, an observant Muslim must speak out against them in service to God.

I don't know any godless dogs. God is there for everyone, even if you are not there for Him.

I can easily enjoy an interfaith discussion, but I respectfully ask for the slams against my faith to be eliminated from the discusion, as I wil not insult yours. Do Catholics have such a similar principle to adhere to?

Edited October 16, 2006 by szsz

[mybackpages 0]

I conclude that there is a heavy dose of *cultural* differences influencing Islam, and since there is no one Head of the Religion to settle the argument, there's no way to settle it.

Yes and no. Islam differs from Christianity in that there are laws (jurisprudence) whch govern all aspects of Muslim life (similar to Judaism). Over the years 4 major schools of jurisprudence have developed (by and large regional and influenced by local culture and history certainly) in Islam. There are other minor schools.

Like any legal system, interpretation of the law is based on scholarship and operated under expected legal guidelines. Just as the US Constitution has different schools of interpretation, so does Islamic law.

The Quran was revealed over a long period of time in very specific contextes. One must understand the history and meanings behind the verses. The Sunnah (or sayings of the Prophet) are used as supplemental documentation to better understand the Quran. There are very specific rules and historical scholarship placed on these sayings to determine if it is valid.

This is where the human factor of interpretation inevitably interfers in such a undertaking and has led to different interpretations. Some differences are as small as what positionn should your feet be in during prayer to as large as whether or not polygamy is allowed.

Most Musllims worldwide (like most people of other faiths) rarely seek out this scholarly study of their faith, but accept what religious leaders have said over time to be correct.

Edited October 16, 2006 by mybackpages

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Most Musllims worldwide (like most people of other faiths) rarely seek out this scholarly study of their faith, but accept what religious leaders have said over time to be correct.

So true! Fatwa websites and political insta-scholars online seem to be the preferred mode of indoctrination these days.

I went to school and did the work. I work everyday next to Islamic legal scholars who have been graded and certified in their schools. It may not make us always right, but when you have to compete with the local unschooled imam, the web and insta-scholars, it can seem as though you have wasted your time in legitimate study.

[sarah and hicham 3]

Wow, you girls sure know how to make religion look appealing!

Not.

When I sign up, do I get a certain number of Smiting Certificates along with my new judgemental vocabulary?

Without reading the minutia of this argument (again!) and understanding that I am a godless dog to you, I have to say that it's my opinion that God looks more benevolently on those who tend to their own personal relationship with him and aren't running around smacking down other humans--I mean, isn't that his job? It's my observation that when religious folk get too wound up in their rituals instead of what's behind the rituals are about as far from God as they can be.

Since you opened it up to non-Muslims.

Thank you............. and ameen.

This has become an embarassment.

What is an embarassment? I didn't even think you were in on this argument?

[Caladan 19]

If fraud wasn't an issue, then why'd you bring it up?

Yes, non-Muslims were invited, but I didn't expect all of you to understand the discussion. I was right. Why should you? Some of the MENA girls don't either. Keep laughing!

Let's be clear; I'm not slamming Islam and I'm more than capable of understanding the discussion. I may be mocking you (and VP, maybe, tho' she has a good sense of humor about it), but that's hardly the same thing. You've studied Islamic law and believe you have a duty to 'stand out firmly for justice', but from this angle, it doesn't look so much like a debate about religious law as a catfight due to a personality conflict.

So, some questions:

1) A contract requires enforcement. That's basic contracts. But there are many attempted contracts that fail, and so I'm wondering what you do if your marriage contract isn't enforceable in the society where you live. Because I imagine there are some marriage contracts that wouldn't be enforceable in the U.S.

2) 'Protections' are required, but we haven't said what they are here, so it's hard to know what's being contracted.

3) If there is no higher central authority in Islam, then how is interpretation decided? If it's just 'schools of interpretation', then how can you be speaking as the one true voice of Islam as you're representing yourself here? Maybe VP isn't up-to-snuff on religious law, but you seem to be against any imam or religious website or anything that disagrees with you as obviously wrong, but I'm not seeing where that authority derives.

Edited October 16, 2006 by Caladan

[crazyinEgypt 0]

Ok for you, but the USCIS considers paper marriages a fraud and misrepresentation for a K1, so it should not be advocated on this board.

Please show your proof for this. USCIS is fully aware of my Islamic marriage contract. And my petition was approved with no problems at all.

Yes Layla, but things may be totally different at the embassy level.

A friend of Amr works at TNT and knew a lot of people that worked in the embassy there in Cairo. He could tell the craziest stories about men trying to get a visa. He made it very clear to Amr NOT to mention to people he didn't know that we had a "contract" because there were a few cases where the couple were denied at embassy level and were told to bring the contract back and have it registered. Sometimes too much info isn't a good thing.

Edited October 16, 2006 by crazyinEgypt

[Ban Hammer 13,343]

Hehe. To me it's reading a bit like the More Muslim Than Thou Olympics. Judged sort of like figure skating or gymnastics:

'Bob, she's got the veil, which is a conventional style often appreciated by the judges, but she's pushing new frontiers with her insistance on a paper marriage, something new and daring! It could work in her favor, but it's got a very high degree of difficulty. I hope she sticks the landing!'

'Here's our classically trained rising star, who has incorporated shouts of 'fornicator! fornicator!' into her routine, in an attempt to garner artistic accolades.'

jeesh see all the fun i miss when i'm not here on the weekends?