Marriage Protection & Recourse in Law and Faith

[Together4ever 1]

So much fear in marriage is a real turn off.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Ok for you, but the USCIS considers paper marriages a fraud and misrepresentation for a K1, so it should not be advocated on this board.

Please show your proof for this. USCIS is fully aware of my Islamic marriage contract. And my petition was approved with no problems at all.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Your poor reading comprehension skills have shown through to your involvement in GH's case as well.

She did not have a marriage certificate and yet apply for a K-1 visa as would have been a violation of immigration law. As long as immigration chooses not to recognize a person's marriage by their standards then they are not elligible to apply for K-3 or CR-1 visas.

She had a paper marriage, then applied for a K1. I know the story and my reading comprehension is fine. I found the word kufr in several of your posts, so I read better than you remember.

Her case involved a misunderstanding at the POE and not in the visa issuing process itself.

Yes, but when he got to JFK and told the officers that he was married, they sent him back home pronto.

You are the one who began accusing people here of fornication because a marriage is not registered with a govt entity. That was not the topic then until YOU made it as such and it has been YOU who have felt the need to keep it going all this time by personally attacking me at every chance you get.

Actually, you challenged me on Goldenheart's thread when I questioned the legitimacy of paper marriages. Until then, I had no idea you had one. You volunteered that information to me. As for attacking you, I see it as correcting you, and since you keep discussing it in publc, you make it an issue that can be commented on. Besides, as I reminded you yesterday, I was gone for hours on doodlebug's thread where you were putting down people who have sex out of marriage, and other people were challenging you about your concept of marriage before I said a thing about it. The fact is, I'm not the only one who thinks you're out in left field, and I'm not the only one who says anything about it. I'm just the only one who gets under your skin.

I came to the defense then because you were then and are now misrepresenting Islam by declaring anything haraam based on man-made laws.

I know you are misrepresenting Islam as not concerned about protection and enforcement in marriage, and I have every right to challenge and offense to my faith when I see it.

GH also had a different situation completely because her marriage contract was conducted over the phone and that was the issue that she discovered was wrongly approved of by her imam.... that however had nothing to do with immigration. Her problem with immigration came in because of a misunderstanding at the POE.

That wasn't the issue for immigration. The poor man was "married in the eyes of God"; that was all the officers had to hear and he was gone.

I did not ever tell anyone that an Islamic marriage contract would be enough for the purposes of immigration.

On this thread you've claimed that USCIS is fine with your "marriage" and applying for a K1.

It's not illegal to have a marriage contract without having registered the marriage either so no law has been broken and it has not been advocated to break any laws.

In light of Goldenheart's case, your continued defense of paper marriage muddies the water and needs to be stopped as it does not promote the offering of proper information either about Islam or what is acceptable to the USCIS. This is not only about you, and if you weren't so stuck on yourself, you would cease your advocacy of the practice on this board. Take it to the streets, take it to your masjid, but leave it out of here.

Please show your proof for this. USCIS is fully aware of my Islamic marriage contract. And my petition was approved with no problems at all.

Like I've said many times, Layla, this is not about you. You can't seem to allow yourself to think beyond how this affects you, but it's bigger than you. Don't be so self-centered. GH had a paper marriage and so we know that USCIS dislikes them. That you have managed to soothe their sensibilties is not the end of the story. We know that they can be arbitrary and capricous in their judgements. Get past yourself and think about someone else for a change.

Edited October 15, 2006 by szsz

[Sofiyya 1,687]

PS - Other people have mentioned that they had nikahs without registering them; crazyinegypt just did. I haven't said a thing about or to them that would begin to constitute an "attack" because they haven't made it an issue, as you have. You repeatedly throw yourself out as the poster child for paper marriages as if you demand to be confronted and debated, and so you are. Why complain about getting what you obviously want - the attention?

Edited October 15, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

[Veiled Princess 1]

Al Zawaj Al O'rfi (Customary marriage )

Posted byAdministrator on Tuesday, May 03 @ 00:32:52 AST

Contributed by Administrator

Any marriage contract, fulfilling all Islamic conditions, is valid in Islam. These conditions are as belows:

1. The WALI (guardian) of the girl must accept the proposal by saying, for example, “I accept to marry my daughter to you”, and the one who proposes must reply, for example by “I accept”.

2. This acceptance should be in the presence of two witnesses.

3. Marriage should be announced.

The real difference between the Islamic normal marriage and Al Zawaj Al O’rfi (commonly acknowledged) is that the latter does not take place in a court, or in the presence of a judge. But we don’t advise it because of the lack of the fear of Allah in these days.

If the secret marriage takes place between a man and a woman only, without the above conditions, of will not be considered as a legal marriage. It is no more than an illegal contract between a man and a woman. Allah knows best.

www.islamweb.net : Fatwa center supervised by Dr. Abdullah Al-faqih

link

Even a moderate website states it's still valid.. they just don't advise it.

[Bosco 1]

www.islamweb.net : Fatwa center supervised by Dr. Abdullah Al-faqih

link

Even a moderate website states it's still valid.. they just don't advise it.

That link neglects the mahr. I always thought mahr was required.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

That link neglects the mahr. I always thought mahr was required.

You are correct. Also, the acceptance of the bride is required (not just the acceptance of her wali.)

Edited October 15, 2006 by wife_of_mahmoud

[Veiled Princess 1]

That link neglects the mahr. I always thought mahr was required.

You are correct. Also, the acceptance of the bride is required (not just the acceptance of her wali.)

Quite true.... didn't say I agree with everything on this site just posting the moderate view as well.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Excuse me? We don't have to follow man-made laws, but we can follow man-made websites?

There is still the issue of neglect of protection and enforcement. You haven't gotten around that yet.

Something else you should be aware of when cruising websites; many of their laws are based on regional customs and are not beholding to those of us in the US. For example, there are fatwas saying that it is reprehensible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim woman if he is living in the west. While this is allowable in the Quran, it is prohibited in Singapore because of local needs.

Our needs in the US, due to the absense of sharia courts, is to be proactive and educated, follow the law where we live and take advantage of the protection and enforcement it gives us here. Or, you can go live in a Muslim country of your choosing and follow their laws.

Edited October 15, 2006 by szsz

[Caladan 19]

So, basically, under szsz's version of Islam, to be married requires a formal contract signed with two witnesses, and in order to ensure that the contract is properly enforced, szsz's Islam requires that the marriage be registered with the local civil authorities when there's not a religious court that has the power of enforcement? And if you're missing either of those you're not married as far as Islam is concerned.

Under VP's version, you don't need the contract to be married in Islam, and if you don't register the marriage, you can still count as married. Is protection and enforcement not tied to local culture at all?

(The reason I said horribly biased is that if you extend, as you did, the poll to non-Muslims, it means very different things. I, for example, will want the legal protections afforded by U.S. civil law, but it has fskall to do with the religious marriage. But if I check yes, it seems as though I'm implicitly saying, Oh, yes, legal protections are part of my marriage traditions, and they're really not. In other words it was this: "The debate has been about what Islam requires, but it is no less than what is required in all Abrahamic faiths, and, I imagine, what most would wish for themselves so all are welcome to respond. It is an ecumenical discussion." that sparked my thoughts, and at least one rather big Abrahamic faith doesn't have this concept of protections at all.)

As far as visa fraud is concerned, the only question as far as *fraud* goes is whether the marriage is misrepresented legally. If two people decide they're 'married in their heart' it doesn't matter a whit to the civil authorities unless it means their criteria for a legal marriage. So I'm not seeing how VP could be committing visa fraud if she's a) not legally recognized as married B) not recognized religiously as married (according to szsz) and c) files on a fiancé visa.

Edited October 15, 2006 by Caladan

[meauxna 15]

Wow, you girls sure know how to make religion look appealing!

Not.

When I sign up, do I get a certain number of Smiting Certificates along with my new judgemental vocabulary?

Without reading the minutia of this argument (again!) and understanding that I am a godless dog to you, I have to say that it's my opinion that God looks more benevolently on those who tend to their own personal relationship with him and aren't running around smacking down other humans--I mean, isn't that his job? It's my observation that when religious folk get too wound up in their rituals instead of what's behind the rituals are about as far from God as they can be.

Since you opened it up to non-Muslims.

[Caladan 19]

Hehe. To me it's reading a bit like the More Muslim Than Thou Olympics. Judged sort of like figure skating or gymnastics:

'Bob, she's got the veil, which is a conventional style often appreciated by the judges, but she's pushing new frontiers with her insistance on a paper marriage, something new and daring! It could work in her favor, but it's got a very high degree of difficulty. I hope she sticks the landing!'

'Here's our classically trained rising star, who has incorporated shouts of 'fornicator! fornicator!' into her routine, in an attempt to garner artistic accolades.'

[Veiled Princess 1]

Under VP's version, you don't need the contract to be married in Islam, and if you don't register the marriage, you can still count as married. Is protection and enforcement not tied to local culture at all?

Actually I do believe you have to have a marriage contract... I just don't agree that any govt... much less a non-muslim one... has to recognize it in order for it to be valid.

Personal responsibility has to come in to play at some point.

Wow, you girls sure know how to make religion look appealing!

Not.

When I sign up, do I get a certain number of Smiting Certificates along with my new judgemental vocabulary?

Without reading the minutia of this argument (again!) and understanding that I am a godless dog to you, I have to say that it's my opinion that God looks more benevolently on those who tend to their own personal relationship with him and aren't running around smacking down other humans--I mean, isn't that his job? It's my observation that when religious folk get too wound up in their rituals instead of what's behind the rituals are about as far from God as they can be.

Since you opened it up to non-Muslims.

[meauxna 15]

Hehe. To me it's reading a bit like the More Muslim Than Thou Olympics. Judged sort of like figure skating or gymnastics:

'Bob, she's got the veil, which is a conventional style often appreciated by the judges, but she's pushing new frontiers with her insistance on a paper marriage, something new and daring! It could work in her favor, but it's got a very high degree of difficulty. I hope she sticks the landing!'

'Here's our classically trained rising star, who has incorporated shouts of 'fornicator! fornicator!' into her routine, in an attempt to garner artistic accolades.'

OMG Curly, I literally laughed out loud.

So much more accurate and entertaining! I see a bright future for you.