Marriage Protection & Recourse in Law and Faith

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The issue of what is a proper marriage arises frequently, and I am usually the bad guy for pointing out that couples need protection in marriage, and that is supplied thru certain venues, and riskier in others. Since it is preferable to deal with reality and not wishful thinking, there may be way to settle things by distinquishing how many of us would rather be protected in marriage than not.

[Veiled Princess 1]

You are not the bad guy for having the opinion that protection in marriage is good or preferable.. you are the bad guy because you choose to issue fake fatawa and call marriages haraam and dismiss them completely (instead of saying they are inadvisable because they don't fulfill the requirements you think should be placed on them) because they don't fit your view of how a marriage should take place.

You are also the bad guy because instead of just stating your argument on the issue, you choose to personally attack other board members.

Another reason you are the bad guy is because you call for tolerance and the understanding that others may interpret the Quran in different ways but then you judge and condem others based on your personal interpretation and do not tolerate that others interpret things differently than you.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I don't issue fatwas; you just call my views fatwas because it's a fast track to emotional impact. In discourse, you prefer emotion to logic and reasoning. In discourse, I prefer reasoning and logic to emotion. Those that prefer emotion will see me as the bad guy, but I don't tend to hang with emotional types anyway.

[StupidJourney 0]

I'm really not sure I understand this poll question? Maybe it's an inside conversation that I'm not aware of?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Not so much inside, but brought on by an ongoing debate about paper marriages where the parties claim to be married, but have no support in law to enforce the protections and responsibilities they are obligated to abide by. Some say this is allowable under Islam, but not all agree, for Islam does require a means of enforcement and protection.

The debate has been about what Islam requires, but it is no less than what is required in all Abrahamic faiths, and, I imagine, what most would wish for themselves so all are welcome to respond. It is an ecumenical discussion.

Edited October 14, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

I'm really not sure I understand this poll question? Maybe it's an inside conversation that I'm not aware of?

Yes it's about me.... she even voted under "I don't need the law" for me

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Yes it's about me....

It's not about you, Layla. You're just a living example of the dicotomy.

she even voted under "I don't need the law" for me

I haven't voted for you. You're becoming paranoid, sis.

Edited October 14, 2006 by szsz

[dawnnhatem 0]

Obviously I voted that I want specific rights and expectations (protections to me is a funny word for it) in place with the ability to enforce them....and I would be very upset if I came home with less.

I want to add something different to this ongoing debate. I know many of the members here that married over there, probably had little to do with the terms and conditions of their marriage. I am sure few of us were assertively navigating the foreign gov't processes, demanding rights we knew we could specify... and probably got whatever marriage he and his family decided was nessessary. SO, I'm not suprised when someone with an less-documented or however lacking marriage is going to defend that status like its good - to the end. None of us can back up and do it again, so I don't see any possibility (or benifit) of convincing anyone that their marriage was overdone or could have been done better.

However, I feel like pointing out something huge we all have in common. Any of us (ANY one of us, even one careful to do everything right, holding complete documentation chock-full of protection) is capable of finding ourselves in a really really special kind of bad situation, and we are lucky enough to have ties to this group of real peers. I know I appreciate having this connection. Really, we are lucky to have each other.

I think if you have to justify peace with something, make it the chance you'll need each other in the future. I can't be the only one thats ever been greatful for finding this place.

[sarah and hicham 3]

No Dawn you're not the only one. I am grateful for VJ as well along with all the people who share their stories and advice everyday.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

None of us can back up and do it again, so I don't see any possibility (or benifit) of convincing anyone that their marriage was overdone or could have been done better.

This is not about convincing, it is about forewarned being forearmed. But, when a Muslim who should know better does something wrong and continues to defend it, that is when others need to be unafraid to stand up and let people know this is not the correct way. You cannot protect those who refuse protection, but you can offer it to those who want it.

Sister, Dawn, I hope your days are going well, insha'allah!

Edited October 14, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

OK... I have a question.... can you list the rights that are offered to women under US law that they are entitled to in Islam but are missing out on here because of the lack of a marriage license? Anyone?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I enjoy the way you switch from not imitating the "kuffar" to justifying using their ways when it suits you. That is what that question implies.

[Veiled Princess 1]

I will leave you with this advice, Layla. I was married for nearly 30 years and we were mere children when we married. I was so blind about many things, as you are now, but I learned over time. One thing that my parents taught me that saved me was to have HIGH standards for myself and my husband and to pass on high expectations to our children.

You surrender your rights, bend over backward to defend your surrender as halal. You have such low expectations of marriage, I fear for you. You made bad choices in your first marriage, from what you have posted, you receive no child support. How much will you expect from this man if this is how he begins with you?

First of all, to be fair, you were not married... you were living in sin with a non-muslim man for 30 years.

I have asked you what rights have I surrendered? Doesn't seem to be any.

How did any choices in my previous marriage determine whether or not I should or should not recieve child support????

It is the very laws that you defend as being above our religion that deny me child support and the fact that the man is not a God-fearing person who cares about pleasing his Creator.... I do not have this problem with my current husband.... he is a good muslim man alhamdulilah.

I was married according to the laws of this country to that pig and both my children were born within that marriage.... I had to work like a donkey to be able to afford my right to a divorce from him so that I could get on with my life.... but I still took the legal course for that... now, that same court who holds my divorce/custody/support agreement in their registrar, tells me "I'm sorry, legally there is just nothing we can do to enforce this piece of paper.... unless of course you want to pay thousands $$$$ to an attorney to take it to another state... of course then he could just skip to the next state and still would not be enforcable".

So please tell me my dear darling caring about my rights sister..... what has the law of this country done for me that I couldn't have just done for myself???????

I'll tell you this.... if I never had that blasted piece of govt paper in the first place I would have been able to walk away from that man years before I was able to.

If anything the jacked up laws of this country hendered any rights that Islam would have given me so please do not preach about my poor choices or rights.

I enjoy the way you switch from not imitating the "kuffar" to justifying using their ways when it suits you. That is what that question implies.

Capt Ewok has asked for this word not to be used because someone said it's a bad word and others are offended by it... this happened a long time ago...

[Sofiyya 1,687]

First of all, to be fair, you were not married... you were living in sin with a non-muslim man for 30 years.

No sin involved, and certainly none that you can prove.

I have asked you what rights have I surrendered? Doesn't seem to be any.

I have listed them many times. You just decline to acknowledge their reality.

How did any choices in my previous marriage determine whether or not I should or should not recieve child support????

I don't know; I just know you complain about it. You've even used it as a justification for living together.

It is the very laws that you defend as being above our religion that deny me child support and the fact that the man is not a God-fearing person who cares about pleasing his Creator.... I do not have this problem with my current husband.... he is a good muslim man alhamdulilah.

I haven't defended them as being ABOVE our religion, but it is better than the nothing you have now in a paper marriage.

I was married according to the laws of this country to that pig and both my children were born within that marriage.... I had to work like a donkey to be able to afford my right to a divorce from him so that I could get on with my life.... but I still took the legal course for that... now, that same court who holds my divorce/custody/support agreement in their registrar, tells me "I'm sorry, legally there is just nothing we can do to enforce this piece of paper.... unless of course you want to pay thousands $$$$ to an attorney to take it to another state... of course then he could just skip to the next state and still would not be enforcable".

And so, if you know what the consequences of an unprotected relationship are, why enter into another one?

So please tell me my dear darling caring about my rights sister..... what has the law of this country done for me that I couldn't have just done for myself???????

What has pretending to be married done for you? You will still need to be married again under the laws of this country before you will be in compliance with marriage laws and immigration laws, so your righteous anger has not advanced your cause.

I'll tell you this.... if I never had that blasted piece of govt paper in the first place I would have been able to walk away from that man years before I was able to.

If anything the jacked up laws of this country hendered any rights that Islam would have given me so please do not preach about my poor choices or rights.

And where is the court that will uphold your rights under Islam? It is not in this country, and you disparage the laws in the country where you"married", so you are SOL.

I'm sorry that things did not work out for you in your divorce, but repeating low expectations will also not serve you well.

Capt Ewok has asked for this word not to be used because someone said it's a bad word and others are offended by it... this happened a long time ago...

I told him myself that it is offensive, but I've seen you use it many, many times as a perjorative, and not long ago. I put it in parentheses because I do not use it as a perjorative.

Edited October 14, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

No sin involved, and certainly none that you can prove.

If there are children involved there is very little left to prove.

I have listed them many times. You just decline to acknowledge their reality.

You mention recourse but recourse for what? inheritance? what's a will for? divorce? does Islam require us to wait a full year for a divorce? To make sure he doesn't marry anyone else? Well, like I stated... taking away his rights is not my right.

I don't know; I just know you complain about it. You've even used it as a justification for living together.

You don't know? But yet you mentioned it against me???

I haven't defended them as being ABOVE our religion, but it is better than the nothing you have now in a paper marriage.

what is a paper marriage? when I register my marriage here will I not recieve yet another piece of paper? When the court refuses to uphold it is it really anymore than firewood? You placed them above our religion when you make religious rulings based on them.

And so, if you know what the consequences of an unprotected relationship are, why enter into another one?

How much more protection could I have??? I followed the law!!! The LAW hasn't protected me!!

No one should ever be married unless they're rich and can follow the man around the country/world filing papers wherever he chooses to hide??

What has pretending to be married done for you? You will still need to be married again under the laws of this country before you will be in compliance with marriage laws and immigration laws, so your righteous anger has not advanced your cause.

I am not pretending to be married.. I am married. Immigration has, so far, accepted the fact that we consider ourselves married... the state I live in would recognize my marriage even without registration if he was a resident here.... the only law that I have to comply with is the requirement to have this marriage registered IF I want him to have permission to stay here with me.

And where is the court that will uphold your rights under Islam? It is not in this country, and you disparage the laws in the country where you"married", so you are SOL.

So we're back to if no court exists to uphold Islamic rights... does that mean no one can marry?

I'm sorry that things did not work out for you in your divorce, but repeating low expectations will also not serve you well.

I don't have low expectations... if I did I would have settled for another non-muslim man.

I told him myself that it is offensive, but I've seen you use it many, many times as a perjorative, and not long ago. I put it in parentheses because I do not use it as a perjorative.

I have not used it so you're misrepresenting me in an attempt to rile other user's emotions against me.