George Zimmerman Case: Charges Should Be Dropped

[Dan and Judy 614]

I wasn't thinking that Zimmerman ran him down, but rather he cut him off and I base it on the gf's account of the cell phone call. I'd recommend you read it - if her account is credible, Martin was clearly trying to get away from Zimmerman to the point where he began to run away. That is corroborated with Zimmerman's 911 call where he tells the dispatcher he is running, at which point Zimmerman got out of his vehicle, because he could no longer follow Martin by driving. Zimmerman most likely intercepted Martin based on the gf's account as well as the location of Martin's body to Zimmerman's vehicle, which was on the other side of one of the condo buildings and which contradicts Zimmerman's claim that Martin approached him while he was in his vehicle.

Whether Zimmerman actually tried out for the police force or not, he has a track record of being a wannabe cop. The countless phone calls to police, appointing himself the neighborhood watch 'captain,' and of course, choosing to carry a gun while on neighborhood watch. That night he took on the role of law enforcement by pursuing Martin. The lead investigator has said that Martin would be alive today had Zimmerman stayed in his vehicle and listened to the 911 Dispatcher.

No matter how you cut it, Zimmerman would have to be moving faster than Trayvon to catch him

1911:12 Call received from George Zimmerman reporting suspicious person

1913:19 Zimmerman relays that suspicious person is running from him

1913:36 Dispatcher asks Zimmerman if he is following suspicious person

1913:36 Dispatcher advises Zimmerman "Okay; we don't need you to do that"

1915:23 Approximate time call with Zimmerman ends

1916:43 911 call placed by (blacked out name) where Zimmerman is heard screaming for help

1917:20 Shot fired; screams from Zimmerman cease

1917:40 Officer T. Smith arrives on scene

1919:43 Officer T. Smith locates and places Zimmerman in custody.

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville....s#ixzz1viwrKSE7

Zimmerman's 911 call lasted more than 2 minutes after Trayvon started running and at the end of the call they had not yet met. I could crawl that far in 2 minutes

Trayvon stopped to confront Zimmerman. or back tracked to confront him. He easily could have been inside his uncles house with in 2 minutes.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Dan and Judy

[one...two...tree 2,762]

That's interesting, Dan, because here's another map scenario that speculates how the confrontation took place.

I've broken down the Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman crime scene based on as much public information that's currently available. Here's what's currently known (assuming what's known is accurate): Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman crossed paths (update: maybe not…but maybe) before Trayvon walked north (update: north and then west) 1.4 miles (update: 1.5 miles round trip) to the neighborhood 7-11 for some Skittles and Iced Tea. Otherwise, there wouldn't be enough time for Zimmerman to become paranoid about a black teen in the area or Trayvon to become concerned about a guy watching him.

So, upon his return to the gated community, Trayvon likely walked south from the "Front Entrance" (update: maybe…but maybe not) towards Zimmerman who phoned 911 when he noticed Trayvon again (because all suspicious looking black teens return to their crime scenes, right?). Zimmerman was sitting in a truck parked pointing north (update: west – see 3rd map below) the mailboxes near the clubhouse and "cut through."

Trayvon approached Zimmerman's truck en route to his father's girlfriend's house which was near the "Back Entrance." Trayvon had his hand in his waistband and started running once he passed Zimmerman's truck. Zimmerman followed by foot. Zimmerman was asked to stop following Trayvon by the 911 operator. The 911 call ends shortly thereafter when Zimmerman suggested to the operator that the police can call his cellphone when they show up. Once the 911 call ends, there's a gap of time that's not accounted for.

Per the final call with his girlfriend, Trayvon was concerned about Zimmerman watching him and would have likely tried to get home in an efficient manner. So, there's only one possible route that each person would have taken to end up at the shooting scene. And, this route eliminates ANY possibility that Trayvon came up from behind and attacked Zimmerman as he was heading back to his truck (which was presumably parked on the STREET and not in the middle of a sidewalk area between two rows of buildings).

The only assumption I make above is that Trayvon wanted to get home. If he wanted to bait Zimmerman, he could have hid and "attacked" from behind as Zimmerman returned to his truck…if his truck was parked on the SIDEWALK in between 2 rows of buildings. This – a 150 pound 17 year old wanting to rough up a 200 pound 28 year old that's stalking you – also seems rather unlikely to me (and I assume everybody else).

http://bcclist.com/2...-zimmerman-map/

And then this one...

Zimmerman saw Trayvon and called 911 to report him as a suspicious person. Zimmerman said Trayvon was running away and started to follow. Zimmerman said he was returning to his vehicle when Trayvon attacked him. Zimmerman sustained injuries to his nose and back of his head.

A witness saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, beating him. He said Zimmerman was yelling for help. Other witnesses heard a man yelling for help and a gunshot. No one saw the fight start or the actual shooting. Zimmerman said he was in fear for his life and shot Trayvon in self-defense. Trayvon was unarmed.

Zimmerman's story was consistent with the witness statements and the physical evidence. They have enough evidence to arrest Zimmerman for a violation of Florida Statute 782.11:

782.11 Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act.—Whoever shall unnecessarily kill another, either while resisting an attempt by such other person to commit any felony, or to do any other unlawful act, or after such attempt shall have failed, shall be deemed guilty of manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

In California the charge would be involuntary manslaughter. It's what's know as "imperfect self-defense." Self-defense is still a valid defense if the defendant had a genuine fear for his life and that believe was reasonable.

Let's say someone pointed a fake gun at you and tried to rob you. You're not in real danger of getting shot but you think you are. That belief would be reasonable. But let's say he just pointed his finger at you. Even if you genuinely believed his finger was loaded, that belief would not be reasonable.

Normally you can't use deadly force to avoid getting beat up. But if you honestly and reasonably fear your assailant is going to do more than beat you up you can use deadly force even though they are unarmed. Whether or not you are justified in using deadly force is normally a question of fact for a jury. But a prosecutor has both discretion and a duty to only bring cases they believe they can win.

http://crayfisher.wo...on-martin-case/

[one...two...tree 2,762]

This is interesting:

A Legal Analysis: Trayvon Martin Tragedy Has Nothing to Do with 'Stand Your Ground'

In our legal system, these phrases each carry specific meanings:

• First, the person invoking the "Stand Your Ground" defense must do more than simply convince a jury that his belief in the necessity of employment of deadly force is honest and sincere. He must demonstrate, by a preponderance (i.e., greater weight) of evidence, that his belief was reasonable. In determining whether such a belief is reasonable, courts or arresting police officers employ what is called an objective test -- i.e., they determine what a reasonable person in the defendant's place would have believed was necessary to prevent the serious harm.
• What exactly constitutes "great bodily harm" is a little ambiguous. Minor scratches and scars don't qualify, but amputations and severe mutilations almost certainly do. The standard was articulated by the Florida Supreme Court in the 1974 case Owens v. State: "Great bodily harm defines itself and means great as distinguished from slight, trivial, minor, or moderate harm, and as such does not include mere bruises as are likely to be inflicted in a simple assault and battery. ... Whether the evidence describing such harm or injury is within the meaning of the statute ... is generally a question of fact for the jury."
• Finally, Section 776.08 of the Florida Statutes defines "forcible felonies" as "any ... felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual."

Thus, in order for Zimmerman's "Stand Your Ground" claim to prevail, he will need to convince a jury, by a preponderance of the evidence (a much lower standard than the famous "beyond a reasonable doubt"), that a reasonable person in his position would have believed that deadly force was necessary to defend himself against Martin, or that a reasonable person would have believed that deadly force was necessary to prevent Martin from committing a felony that involved the use or threat of physical force against an individual.

....

Zimmerman appears to have chased Martin on foot after police dispatch expressly told him not to. At least one witness reports having heard Martin (not Zimmerman) cry for help.

Finally, Martin's girlfriend is publicly corroborating this scenario based on her phone conversation with Martin just seconds before Zimmerman approached. The credible picture she paints (consistent with the witness testimony and what we indisputably know to be Martin's innocence) is of Martin defending himself against the aggressions of an overenthusiastic vigilante.

.....

Eric Giunta wrote this analysis piece especially for Sunshine State News. Giunta recently graduated from Florida State University College of Law, where he served as president of that school's chapter of the nation's premier fellowship of conservative and libertarian law students. He is sitting for the Florida Bar examination. The information contained in this article does not constitute legal advice nor is it intended to constitute legal advice.

http://www.sunshines...r-ground?page=3

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

This is interesting:

http://www.sunshines...r-ground?page=3

Congrats! You managed to post a piece by someone who hasn't even passed a bar exam. The authors opinion is worth about as much as yours.

[PMartin37 161]

No matter how you cut it, Zimmerman would have to be moving faster than Trayvon to catch him

1911:12 Call received from George Zimmerman reporting suspicious person

1913:19 Zimmerman relays that suspicious person is running from him

1913:36 Dispatcher asks Zimmerman if he is following suspicious person

1913:36 Dispatcher advises Zimmerman "Okay; we don't need you to do that"

1915:23 Approximate time call with Zimmerman ends

1916:43 911 call placed by (blacked out name) where Zimmerman is heard screaming for help

1917:20 Shot fired; screams from Zimmerman cease

1917:40 Officer T. Smith arrives on scene

1919:43 Officer T. Smith locates and places Zimmerman in custody.

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville....s#ixzz1viwrKSE7

Zimmerman's 911 call lasted more than 2 minutes after Trayvon started running and at the end of the call they had not yet met. I could crawl that far in 2 minutes

Trayvon stopped to confront Zimmerman. or back tracked to confront him. He easily could have been inside his uncles house with in 2 minutes.

Now explain with the time stamps given for the scenario listed above how.... the account Zimmerman gives of:

- Trayvon walking up to his car and accosting him

-the scuffle ensues

-then they arrive at the crime scene and scuffle further

until the fatal gun shot is fired in 2 minutes. The time frame for that doesn't check out.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Now explain with the time stamps given for the scenario listed above how.... the account Zimmerman gives of:

- Trayvon walking up to his car and accosting him

-the scuffle ensues

-then they arrive at the crime scene and scuffle further

until the fatal gun shot is fired in 2 minutes. The time frame for that doesn't check out.

I've never read anything about a fight at the car.

[PMartin37 161]

I've never read anything about a fight at the car.

Zimmerman claims he was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon attacked him from behind.

I've read this account in several different sources. These are just 2 for starters.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0413/Trayvon-Martin-case-George-Zimmerman-trial-could-be-months-off

http://sandrarose.com/2012/03/fox-news-secret-witness-saw-trayvon-attacking-zimmerman/

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Zimmerman claims he was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon attacked him from behind.

I've read this account in several different sources. These are just 2 for starters.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0413/Trayvon-Martin-case-George-Zimmerman-trial-could-be-months-off

http://sandrarose.com/2012/03/fox-news-secret-witness-saw-trayvon-attacking-zimmerman/

Which, if he went straight through the cut through, makes sense per the map at the top.

[PMartin37 161]

Which, if he went straight through the cut through, makes sense per the map at the top.

If that account would be true... then Zimmerman would in fact need to chase him and continue the fight to arrive at the crime scene location. That would sort of throw his stand your ground defense out the window. He would have had an opportunity to retreat at that point correct? If he plans to back up that account, good luck with the stand your ground defense. The judge will surely not offer a waiver if that's ,in fact, what happened and he'll be going trial for sure.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

If that account would be true... then Zimmerman would in fact need to chase him and continue the fight to arrive at the crime scene location. That would sort of throw his stand your ground defense out the window. He would have had an opportunity to retreat at that point correct? If he plans to back up that account, good luck with the stand your ground defense. The judge will surely not offer a waiver if that's ,in fact, what happened and he'll be going trial for sure.

I think the scene is close enough to the "T" that there would be no need to chase.

Also a lot of time passed, he may have looped the first building etc.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Sousuke

[PMartin37 161]

I think the scene is close enough to the "T" that there would be no need to chase.

Also a lot of time passed, he may have looped the first building etc.

2 minutes is alot of time?? In that amount of time Trayvon would have had to mercilessly beat Zimmerman giving him the nonexistent black eyes (per crime scene photos). Zimmerman being within an inch of his life and still fighting to survive would have to then follow Trayvon (if you want to believe this) and arrived at the final point where Trayvon then jumps on him and starts wailing and Zimmerman decides his only alternative is to shoot him in the chest. Interesting self defense argument.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

You both are confusing me (Sousuke and PMartin).

The time between the ending of the 911 call and the end of gf's cell phone call (which is when the confrontation began) is how long? Does anyone know or can someone find out?

Edited May 24, 2012 by Mister Fancypants

[PMartin37 161]

You both are confusing me (Sousuke and PMartin).

The time between the ending of the 911 call and the end of gf's cell phone call (which is when the confrontation began) is how long? Does anyone know or can someone find out?

I was referring to the 2minutes between the end of the 911 call and the shot being fired. I'm not sure about the time sequence on the gf phone call. I've been trying to find out. All I've read is her sequence of events in the interview.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Ok then- if not because he's black, then why?

'Cause he wore a hoodie. That's why.

Or maybe because he had skittles.

How did he have it coming?

The skittles or the hoodie. Or the combination. Something like that.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I was referring to the 2minutes between the end of the 911 call and the shot being fired. I'm not sure about the time sequence on the gf phone call. I've been trying to find out. All I've read is her sequence of events in the interview.

Ah, ok. Yeah, I think that time frame would be more telling as to how long it took for Zimmerman and Martin to cross paths after the 911 call ended.

I was thinking that Zimmerman followed Martin down the street by car and then once Martin started running, Zimmerman stopped his vehicle at the corner after losing sight of Martin and went around the first building (see the map I posted above). Martin may have only ran far enough to be out of sight of Zimmerman in his vehicle, having no idea that the crazy person following him by car would actually get out of his vehicle and pursue him by foot. So if Zimmerman went around the other way of the building, he would have intercepted Martin who was on his way home. That would have absolutely freaked out most anyone. So at the point, when Martin asked Zimmerman why he was following him can be approximated as being close to the vicinity of where the body was found and be timestamped by gf's cell phone record.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Mister Fancypants